Praetoria is NOT "goatee" Paragon
By
Anti_Proton,
Posted on: 2009-10-26 15:41 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Only if that action is a complete and full retreat, maybe leaving a message saying "sorry about the intrusion, can we sit down and talk about it?"|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Exploring new dimensions isn't aggressive - it's not our fault if we get attacked there and have to take action
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But let's turn your idea around a bit. Let's say there's an alien race that decides to explore our planet, without any aggression. Given our worlds extended paranoia, it's very likely that we will attack if there's the slightest difficulty in communication. At this point, according to your comment, they have every right now to mount a full invasion and remake our world government in their image, if not wipe out all remaining traces of civilization.
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
I used to thing Lord Recluse was our version of Doom, but that, IMHO, is only partly true. LR reminds me more of early versions of Doom, the mad, power-hungry Doom where as Emperor Cole is more like the ruler of Latveria Doom that believes the utopia he has created in his land is best for the entire world. Doom doesn't believe what he does is evil, but nessesary to bring prosperity to the whole, no matter who gets killed in the process.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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We're more tolerant than that |
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
Only if that action is a complete and full retreat, maybe leaving a message saying "sorry about the intrusion, can we sit down and talk about it?"
But let's turn your idea around a bit. Let's say there's an alien race that decides to explore our planet, without any aggression. Given our worlds extended paranoia, it's very likely that we will attack if there's the slightest difficulty in communication. At this point, according to your comment, they have every right now to mount a full invasion and remake our world government in their image, if not wipe out all remaining traces of civilization. |
And the Praetorians aren't an alien race - there's no communcation problem - they're just evil
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Precisely. It's a Nemesis plot to make you think he doesn't exist in Praetoria.
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Originally Posted by Jophiel
Pffttt.... not that they know of.
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***Spoilers***|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
We're more tolerant than that
And the Praetorians aren't an alien race - there's no communcation problem - they're just evil |
Rikti aren't aliens either (which I'm sure everyone freaking knows by now)
***Spoilers***
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It was stated at the Con that they aren't "just evil". The developers crafted a world in which what the choices they made were justified. The central focus of this expansion is moral ambiguity.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
We're more tolerant than that
And the Praetorians aren't an alien race - there's no communcation problem - they're just evil |
It's really easy to argue that Emporer Cole is, in fact, what's best for that world. In fact, the developers did. Really effectively.
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They do rather let the side down by calling him "Tyrant", though. I mean, a man who adopts that as a stage name is either indulging in more irony than an emo-goth Partridge Family cover band or quite comfortably in touch with his inner evil. |
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
It was stated at the Con that they aren't "just evil". The developers crafted a world in which what the choices they made were justified. The central focus of this expansion is moral ambiguity.
It's really easy to argue that Emporer Cole is, in fact, what's best for that world. In fact, the developers did. Really effectively. |
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NPCs targetable by Heroes = various levels of less than good morality |
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
It was stated at the Con that they aren't "just evil". The developers crafted a world in which what the choices they made were justified. The central focus of this expansion is moral ambiguity.
It's really easy to argue that Emporer Cole is, in fact, what's best for that world. In fact, the developers did. Really effectively. |
So unless the Praetorians can't be attacked in GR, then they are the baddies
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Well, everyone who are not among the many new players who have joined up recently. Fortunately, I think there was enough spoiler space (at least at 1680x1050 resolution) to keep anyone at that res or lower from "accidentally" hitting the spoiler. |
Originally Posted by Rockpirate
***Spoilers***
... (which I'm sure everyone freaking knows by now) |
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You aren't strictly a "Hero" in Praetoia, because they don't use such definitions. I'm fairly certain that you are a vandal or terrorist, in their most literal terms.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
NPCs targetable by Heroes = various levels of less than good morality
So unless the Praetorians can't be attacked in GR, then they are the baddies |
The Clockwork are maintenance workers in Pra. The developers beat one up for the Lulz at the GR Demo.
"Hero" and "Villain" are tied to the incredibly nebulous and intangible concepts of "Good" and "Evil". Those concepts are faint whispers of vague ideas in the minds of Praetoian people. For that reason, acts that fall or are, what we could in Primal "Evil", are more acceptable.
I.e.: Killing a maintenance worker for the lulz (Who cares? They aren't really human!). Or killing your boss to "Earn" a promotion. That was explicitly stated in the panel as "Acceptable". It was neither good nor evil. It was demonstrating the virtue of natural selection condoned by their government.
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But it is evil to normal people - so the Praetorians are the evil ones |
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
You aren't strictly a "Hero" in Praetoia, because they don't use such definitions. I'm fairly certain that you are a vandal or terrorist, in their most literal terms.
The Clockwork are maintenance workers in Pra. The developers beat one up for the Lulz at the GR Demo. "Hero" and "Villain" are tied to the incredibly nebulous and intangible concepts of "Good" and "Evil". Those concepts are faint whispers of vague ideas in the minds of Praetoian people. For that reason, acts that fall or are, what we could in Primal "Evil", are more acceptable. I.e.: Killing a maintenance worker for the lulz (Who cares? They aren't really human!). Or killing your boss to "Earn" a promotion. That was explicitly stated in the panel as "Acceptable". It was neither good nor evil. It was demonstrating the virtue of natural selection condoned by their government. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Is that his name though? Or just what the masses led on by the War Criminal Statesman's propaganda call him ?
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
They do rather let the side down by calling him "Tyrant", though. I mean, a man who adopts that as a stage name is either indulging in more irony than an emo-goth Partridge Family cover band or quite comfortably in touch with his inner evil.
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@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
Nemesis really doesn't exist in Praetoria.
Which is, of course, the real Nemesis plot. After all, what could be more disruptive to Lord Nemesis than another Lord Nemesis? The amount of cross-plotting involved would be stupid and insane. That's why Lord Nemesis used Portal Corp's technology to ensure that in Praetoria, he would never realize his true genius.
Naturally this will be undone, because not even Lord Nemesis can stand in the way of the genius of Lord Nemesis.
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Normal?|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But it is evil to normal people - so the Praetorians are the evil ones
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I think they think that we are crazy, evil, and decadent. They think that we are immoral for letting criminals get off so easy. For condoning wicked thoughts. For allowing people to "science" to irresponsible ends.
Hell, maybe we are.
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You're trying too hard now |
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Is that his name though? Or just what the masses led on by the War Criminal Statesman's propaganda call him ?
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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No, we're not |
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
Normal?
I think they think that we are crazy, evil, and decadent. They think that we are immoral for letting criminals get off so easy. For condoning wicked thoughts. For allowing people to "science" to irresponsible ends. Hell, maybe we are. |
We have a better idea of freedom, justice and what's right than Tyrant and his thugs - you'll see that once GR comes out
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
As a member of the Praetorian Guard [somebody make that a supergroup please!] i'll just like to say one thing to primal earth . . . .
Bring it on
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
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In fact, Recluse believes in the "survival of the fittest", in that anyone with the strength should be allowed to subjugate others to their will. Even Recluse himself, if you've got the power and the guts to do it. Cole, on the other hand, believes in a Utopian society where the common people are protected from harm and violence. But they are also self destructive and violent, so they have to be controlled like mindless sheep.
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Originally Posted by Tabik
Praetoria is ruled by a despot who forces the citizenry to live as he sees fit, because it will keep them safe, but adversely robbing them of their free will. The Rogue Isles, on the other hand, are the exact antithesis of that principle, representing essentially a dictatorial anarchy. You have a certain degree of freedom, so long as you don't cross Recluse.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
No, we're not
We have a better idea of freedom, justice and what's right than Tyrant and his thugs - you'll see that once GR comes out |
You invaded our space by spying on us, retaliation is to be expected
Your freedom, just like your army of heroes, will soon realise how weak it is compared to the brute strength of skill and sleek pistol animations.
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
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Well, yes, obviously. What Golden Girl is trying to point out is that they're wrong.|
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
I think they think that we are crazy, evil, and decadent.
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Look, this is a game based on superhero comics. For all that GR is supposed to be about moral ambiguity, moral ambiguity is not a theme that plays particularly well in superhero comics. It loads them up with a lot of philosophical claptrap that frankly belongs in some other genre. As such, I for one hope that GR's writing goes really light on it.
A superhero comic is about punching bad guys in the face, and in such comics, iron-fisted hyper-authoritarians are bad guys regardless of in which precise way they wave their hands around while explaining to you why they do it while waiting for the deathtrap you're caught in to finish warming up. Anything else is just overintellectualizing a genre whose chief charm is its refreshing lack of intellectual crap.
Taking a step out of genre and into Babylon 5.
How about the character, who was unelected, came into his position through dubious means, and acted without accountability to anyone. Had a secret organization who did his bidding, and were completely willing to die for him.
The launched a war against an alien race, and smuggled weapons of mass destruction for use against a civilian target (a city) under the guise of peace negotiations.
That is Captain John Sheridan...
There is a huge space of story to be opened up by having the Preatorians be ambiguous rather than the Goatee versions. I am looking forward to it.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Well, it will make you happy (and me sad) to know the Developers have more than once said the Loyalists are the Villains and the Resistance the Heroes.|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
Well, yes, obviously. What Golden Girl is trying to point out is that they're wrong.
Look, this is a game based on superhero comics. For all that GR is supposed to be about moral ambiguity, moral ambiguity is not a theme that plays particularly well in superhero comics. It loads them up with a lot of philosophical claptrap that frankly belongs in some other genre. As such, I for one hope that GR's writing goes really light on it. A superhero comic is about punching bad guys in the face, and in such comics, iron-fisted hyper-authoritarians are bad guys regardless of in which precise way they wave their hands around while explaining to you why they do it while waiting for the deathtrap you're caught in to finish warming up. Anything else is just overintellectualizing a genre whose chief charm is its refreshing lack of intellectual crap. |
The concept of "Freedom=Good" will be used. While I hope they do have arcs that go deeper than that, that will be, I suspect, their guiding stick as they draw out the world of Praetoia.
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Why would you be sad at that? |
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
Well, it will make you happy (and me sad) to know the Developers have more than once said the Loyalists are the Villains and the Resistance the Heroes.
The concept of "Freedom=Good" will be used. While I hope they do have arcs that go deeper than that, that will be, I suspect, their guiding stick as they draw out the world of Praetoia. |
Praetoria is an oppressive, undemocratic tyranny - how can they not be the villains?
The Rikti and Arachnos are major threats to Paragon City - but I haven't seen Statesman setting up a dictatorship here
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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They're not going to be that ambiguous - just check out their names and outfits for a start - they're evil |
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
There is a huge space of story to be opened up by having the Preatorians be ambiguous rather than the Goatee versions. I am looking forward to it.
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I'm sure they'll appear less evil at first, but as we uncover the truth abvout Tyrant, they'll seem less and less hugglesome
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
So fighting Nazis is not a good thing?
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork