Praetoria is NOT "goatee" Paragon
By
Anti_Proton,
Posted on: 2009-10-26 15:41 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Hmm... Due not quite knowing what the word "goatee" means, I didn't catch that in time, but a search around the net educated me. Turns out I have a goatee, as well. My boss keeps telling me to shave it, but it's around 5 centimetres off my chin now, and it's starting to get in the way.|
Originally Posted by Morac_Ex_Machina
Counterpoint: I also have one. WHATCHA GONNA DO NOW!?
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Does that make me evil, too?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Depends. Is there an alternate version of you somewhere (sans goatee) that is a goody-two-shoes?
@Morac | Twitter
Trust the computer. The computer knows all.
Sam, if you are not aware of the background behind goatee = evil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror,_Mirror_(Star_Trek)
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Sam, if you are not aware of the background behind goatee = evil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror,_Mirror_(Star_Trek) |
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| Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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For Morac Ex Machina's sensibilities:
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That sounds like utilitarianism, which sometimes seems to dismiss human concerns while trying to place a certain cost or value on crimes against humans.|
Originally Posted by Deadedge
How many died in Israel, how many in Lebanon?
If all human lives are equal, then math is the answer. |
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Originally Posted by Mr. NoPants
The lives of your people are always worth more then the lives of other people when those other people are causing direct harm. In a fight buildings such as churches, schools, and hospitals are only protected targets as long as they aren't being used as offensive platforms.
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Originally Posted by Morac_Ex_Machina
Really? I know a number of people that would disagree.
Oh wait, they say I'm crazy. That's different. |
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Originally Posted by The_Killbot_5000
How dreadfully nationalistic and xenophobic. As far as I'm concerned if it's human and on this planet, it's my people.
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Originally Posted by The_Killbot_5000
That's why this is a thought-exercise. It's a clear cut what-if scenario, the bare bones of the ethical dilemma and nothing more, no awkward national loyalties to get in the way and bias us all. You're not meant to look for a real-world scenario and work with that, you're just meant to go with the question as asked. Tricky that way isn't it?
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The tricky point with utilitarianism is when you start to consider potentials: IE: How many would have died if I *hadn't* acted? Does a thousand potential deaths outweigh a hundred actual deaths? Would those thousand people have died if I had acted differently?
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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I think House said it best, when asked if an unborn child should be aborted to save it and kill the mother even if it'll die, or if it should be left in longer to let it develop and have a better chance.|
Originally Posted by Arilou
The tricky point with utilitarianism is when you start to consider potentials: IE: How many would have died if I *hadn't* acted? Does a thousand potential deaths outweigh a hundred actual deaths? Would those thousand people have died if I had acted differently?
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"I don't know. How old is it? If it's a month in, I say pull it out and let it die. If it's 8 months in, I say let it wait and kill the mother. Personally, my breaking point is 5 months, 6 days and 3 minutes."
Obviously, House being a jerkass, this isn't exactly an answer, but it underlines a key point - it's impossible to put a definite point where justified atrocity becomes too much atrocity. You can't say "I would sacrifice 1000 people to save my country, but since you're 1001 here, I'll have to let you go."
In fact, wasn't there something like that in the bible? When God proclaims he'll destroy Sodom and Gomorrah and whoever saint was there essentially barters with God "But what if there are a few more? Would you destroy it for a handful more than that?" and God agrees that "OK, if there are a little more, then no, maybe not." The way the story was told to me, that goes on for at least a few rounds of back-and-forths, but I'm don't know enough to say for certain.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Tyrant is actually the greatest hero in existence since he has pretty much eradicated crime and created a society that provides for all.
Discuss.
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Quintessential utilitarian response: needs more data.
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Originally Posted by UnSub
Tyrant is actually the greatest hero in existence since he has pretty much eradicated crime and created a society that provides for all.
Discuss. |
@Morac | Twitter
Trust the computer. The computer knows all.
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Wasn't City 17 supposed to be the same thing?
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Originally Posted by UnSub
Tyrant is actually the greatest hero in existence since he has pretty much eradicated crime and created a society that provides for all.
Discuss. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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What the hell do you think we've been doing for the last 15 pages? Playing shuffleboard? |
Originally Posted by UnSub
Tyrant is actually the greatest hero in existence since he has pretty much eradicated crime and created a society that provides for all.
Discuss. |
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Insufficient data for analysis. While Tyrant may have succeeded in creating such a utopia, as you claim, your argument is both biased in his favor, and provides no clarifying details that are necessary for discourse.
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Originally Posted by UnSub
Tyrant is actually the greatest hero in existence since he has pretty much eradicated crime and created a society that provides for all.
Discuss. |
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This is also a valid response.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
What the hell do you think we've been doing for the last 15 pages? Playing shuffleboard?
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@Morac | Twitter
Trust the computer. The computer knows all.
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If he's eradicated crime, what's up with all these rebels all over? The continued existance of the Resistance proves that a Resistance is necessary, because Emperor Cole is too incompetent at crime prevention to eradicate them. Where a sovereign's sole claim to merit is the alleged elimination of crime, if rebellion is possible then rebellion is obligated.
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Originally Posted by UnSub
Tyrant is actually the greatest hero in existence since he has pretty much eradicated crime and created a society that provides for all.
Discuss. |
@Eisenzahn
GW2 - Melchior.2135
AIM - Euroclydon23
Email - scorpany@yahoo.com or <sameasmyAIM>@aol.com (for the sheer novelty of an almost 20 year old email address that hasn't been overwhelmed by spambots yet)
I don't think incompetence comes into play,if that was the case then most nations on earth are incompetent.In every society there is always an undercurrent of revolution.Look at terrorism vs.everyone,they wish to tear it all down to put their ideas of what society should be into effect.
The US did the same thing with Britian,and the list goes on.You can't please everyone and some things are going to ruffle somebodies feathers.
Look at the US today the secret service reported that they are stretched to the limit on all the threats they have been receiving about Obama.Whether it be about his policies,his color,or being an American.Someone somewhere is not going to like something and make threats,the really bad ones will actually do something.
The resistance is the same way,they may not like Cole's policies,or they know inside information or whatever.It falls to this he has created a utopia for it's citizens,and it seems a large portion of the population are quite content,while a small faction aren't.
In this regard there is no good and evil only grey because it is a matter of opinion.
I like Cole because he has eradicated the hellions,skulls,and the other riff-raff from Praetoria's streets,provided for the citizens,and has laws AND enforcement that seem to work.
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Rebellion for the sake of rebellion?
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Originally Posted by Eisenzahn
If he's eradicated crime, what's up with all these rebels all over? The continued existance of the Resistance proves that a Resistance is necessary, because Emperor Cole is too incompetent at crime prevention to eradicate them. Where a sovereign's sole claim to merit is the alleged elimination of crime, if rebellion is possible then rebellion is obligated.
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@Deadedge and @Dead Edge
Peace through power! Freedom is slavery!
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a yo-yo
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Agreed. Glad to hear you're starting to see the light, "citizen".|
Originally Posted by The_Larker
if that was the case then most nations on earth are incompetent.
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Revolution for Everybody! But mostly for Praetoria! The New Order may or may not be any better at running things, but at least we won't lie to you about it and require you to applaud our failures.
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Originally Posted by Deadedge
Rebellion for the sake of rebellion?
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In a "true" Utopia, no one will want to rebel. I'm not talking about mind control, conditioning, propoganda, terrifying people into obedience and tossing dissenters into a pit somewhere so the remaining population looks more happy on average without them. I'm talking about genuine self-realized and most importanly universal contentment. Anything less is a sham, a lie, a pretense at excellence that is all the more profane for claiming to be something holy.
Where revolution can be accomplished within the existing system, let it be so done. This is a sign that the existing system may contain the seeds of true Utopia, and the experiment must continue in an attempt to further refine its virtues until either Utopia is achieved or a systemic obstacle becomes apparent that can not be resolved internally. Where revolution can not be accomplished without violating the precepts of the system, then the system must be eliminated, so that a new experiment can take its place.
Interestingly, revolution is still possible within Cole's power structure without violating its precepts. Advancement in Praetoria is a matter of merit. If one eliminates one's superior and assumes their position, the fault is with the superior for having been insufficiently prepared to prevent their removal. This is how they operate. This is how they encourage their own ranks to prove themselves. When we conspire to eliminate Emperor Cole and his associates, thereby enabling ourselves to replace them and establish a new order, we are playing by their rules. But it only becomes a crime when we aim for the man at the top of the Big White Tower, instead of restricting our ambitions to middle management.
@Eisenzahn
GW2 - Melchior.2135
AIM - Euroclydon23
Email - scorpany@yahoo.com or <sameasmyAIM>@aol.com (for the sheer novelty of an almost 20 year old email address that hasn't been overwhelmed by spambots yet)
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Also, just because the government is doing it, doesn't make it not a crime.
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Originally Posted by Eisenzahn
If he's eradicated crime, what's up with all these rebels all over? The continued existance of the Resistance proves that a Resistance is necessary, because Emperor Cole is too incompetent at crime prevention to eradicate them. Where a sovereign's sole claim to merit is the alleged elimination of crime, if rebellion is possible then rebellion is obligated.
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@craggy see me on Union for TFs, SFs (please!) or just some good ol fashioned teaming.
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Ever read Notes from Underground? (if not you should, good book) There are those that, even in a perfect utopia, would be unhappy, simply because they didn't want a perfect utopia, people that reject 2+2=4 out of spite.
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Originally Posted by Eisenzahn
In a "true" Utopia, no one will want to rebel. I'm not talking about mind control, conditioning, propoganda, terrifying people into obedience and tossing dissenters into a pit somewhere so the remaining population looks more happy on average without them. I'm talking about genuine self-realized and most importanly universal contentment. Anything less is a sham, a lie, a pretense at excellence that is all the more profane for claiming to be something holy.
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@Deadedge and @Dead Edge
Peace through power! Freedom is slavery!
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a yo-yo
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If it's not satisfactory to everyone involved, it's not a perfect Utopia. Simple as that. What people like that would be unhappy with could only be a failed experiment (if, perhaps, one in an advanced stage).|
Originally Posted by Deadedge
Ever read Notes from Underground? (if not you should, good book) There are those that, even in a perfect utopia, would be unhappy, simply because they didn't want a perfect utopia, people that reject 2+2=4 out of spite.
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In the meantime, as a less desireable option to prop up experiments before they achieve perfection, leaving an experiment you find unsatisfactory shouldn't just be permissable, it should be convenient. Neither are the case in Cole's empire, where your choice is to be subject to a vicious, ineffective regime that exists only to perpetuate itself without any possibility of improvement, or to be cast out into an irradiated wilderness overrun with plant monsters. No wonder he has so many "willing" citizens.
@Eisenzahn
GW2 - Melchior.2135
AIM - Euroclydon23
Email - scorpany@yahoo.com or <sameasmyAIM>@aol.com (for the sheer novelty of an almost 20 year old email address that hasn't been overwhelmed by spambots yet)
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A utopia for hippies?
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Originally Posted by Eisenzahn
an irradiated wilderness overrun with plant monsters.
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@Deadedge and @Dead Edge
Peace through power! Freedom is slavery!
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a yo-yo
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Its 1+1 and it equals either 3 or 11, depending on how you decide to look at it.|
Originally Posted by Deadedge
Ever read Notes from Underground? (if not you should, good book) There are those that, even in a perfect utopia, would be unhappy, simply because they didn't want a perfect utopia, people that reject 2+2=4 out of spite.
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I guess that makes me a part of the resistance?
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
It's not possible to have a true utopia any more than it's truly possible to have absolute good or absolute evil.
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Without disputing that stance, the selfish gene and similar theories provide plenty of biological drive for spliiting the world into 'us' and 'them'.
We as humans frequently forget we are animals as well. Biology has us caught in her powerful web of motivations. If you need help to rise above biology, please report to the nearest Seer, they will provide all the help you need.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617