Praetoria is NOT "goatee" Paragon
By
Anti_Proton,
Posted on: 2009-10-26 15:41 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
Kant says no. Mills says yes. Aristotle... won't care, because it doesn't tell you enough about the person to make a serious claim.|
Originally Posted by Morac_Ex_Machina
Question: can killing for fun be considered moral if the person really deserved it?
(Disclaimer: This is not a question stemming from my own beliefs, it is designed to get people talking). |
Personally, as a subscriber to utilitarianism, though not the greatest happiness principle, if a person merits death, the fact that someone enjoyed killing them is irrelevant to the fact that they committed a good deed.
However, a facet of their character is, and always will be, that they enjoyed killing someone, which while not inherently morally good or bad, is something they should definitely examine critically.
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Who is to say that in 300 years, claiming ownership of an animal won't be viewed as being just as evil? Take that cat and dog-owners!|
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Its not so very long ago in Human History, that a 'good man' was someone who treated his slaves well.
1772 in England, 1777 in Vermont (first part of what became the US) was the recognition that slavery was illegal. The idea that 'owning' another person was wrong, and dare I say evil, was completely alien to many people before the abolitionist movements. Of course it took a lot longer (a century or more) before the owning of slaves was abolished and the cessation of treating women as 'property' (of their fathers, or then their husbands) occurred in the West. Were these people Evil ? Or just a product of the morals and over-riding opinions of their times. |
Seriously though, the majority concensus on what is morally right or wrong changes over time.
@craggy see me on Union for TFs, SFs (please!) or just some good ol fashioned teaming.
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Their actions were certainly evil.
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Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Its not so very long ago in Human History, that a 'good man' was someone who treated his slaves well.
1772 in England, 1777 in Vermont (first part of what became the US) was the recognition that slavery was illegal. The idea that 'owning' another person was wrong, and dare I say evil, was completely alien to many people before the abolitionist movements. Of course it took a lot longer (a century or more) before the owning of slaves was abolished and the cessation of treating women as 'property' (of their fathers, or then their husbands) occurred in the West. Were these people Evil ? Or just a product of the morals and over-riding opinions of their times. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I'm enjoying reading this, although I feel I came too late to the party to chime in (not reading the whole thread, lazy! |
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
-Time Out-
I just want to say how much fun it is to discuss morality and moral philosophy with people that actually know what the subject means. Conversations with certain other friends have been.. unfulfilling. -Time In-  |
)But this is EXACTLY what I thought would happen when side-switching was introduced. A real exploration of morality, instead of Jack's cartoonish evil.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Man, attempting to have a conversation with you is about as satisfying as talking to a brick wall.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Their actions were certainly evil.
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@Morac | Twitter
Trust the computer. The computer knows all.
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That's almost too inviting to skip over for a joke |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Jack's cartoonish evil.
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EDIT: Also, you shouldn't really get your hopes up for the Praetorians coming accross as anything other than villains by the end of the Praetorian content
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
That makes me think about the opening theme for the Watchmen|
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Its not so very long ago in Human History, that a 'good man' was someone who treated his slaves well.
1772 in England, 1777 in Vermont (first part of what became the US) was the recognition that slavery was illegal. The idea that 'owning' another person was wrong, and dare I say evil, was completely alien to many people before the abolitionist movements. Of course it took a lot longer (a century or more) before the owning of slaves was abolished and the cessation of treating women as 'property' (of their fathers, or then their husbands) occurred in the West. Were these people Evil ? Or just a product of the morals and over-riding opinions of their times. |
The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is
Rapidly fadin'.
And the first one now
Will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'.
I sit in my zen of not being able to do anything right while simultaniously not being able to do anything wrong. Om. -CuppaJo
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
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No, you are confusing "enemy" and "evil". There aren't the same thing. What you are talking about are enemies. There is nothing wrong with having enemies, or trying to protect yourself from them.|
Originally Posted by Lord_Kalistoh
You are supporting my point: the society doesn't approve it.
In a possible society where the cruelty is the basis, that wouldn't be seen like evil. You think you are an ant. You would think that humans are evil: they destroy your lands, they kill your people (sometimes just for the lol), they're everywhere. Are we really evil? |
But I've been in a country where the insane asylums and prisons were dumped out into a war zone, and that bred a ton of evil. The type of thing that you don't need to be told by anyone to realize how screwed up it is.
Most of us just don't see real evil in our daily lives, so we misapply the word to things we just don't approve of. But that doesn't mean that concrete, objective evil doesn't exist, just that it is effectively suppressed in most cases.
What I find fascinating are statements like "there are things that are always evil, no matter where you are, and things that are always good too." I'm curious if you're referring to specific actions or specific intents.
There is, after all, no grammatical difference between a truth and a lie, and no surgical difference going from probing brain surgury to medical experimentation on humans. In popular fiction, the world can be destroyed with the same push of a button that could punctuate this sentence
If you come up with something that you deem as universally evil, and I dig up someone that thinks it's morally irrelevant or even good, is your view of universally applicable morality wrong, or is the other person's moral compass wrong?
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What popular fiction have you read in which the villain's doomsday device is configured to be set off by typing a period? That sounds wacky enough to be a lot of fun.
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Originally Posted by Dersk
In popular fiction, the world can be destroyed with the same push of a button that could punctuate this sentence
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I can see Nemesis getting involved, but it seems more likely to me that the Malta Group is focused on primal Earth, and not likely to bother with Praetorian Earth until they have the utopia they want.
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Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
For a while there's certainly going to be a clash between legacy content and Going Rogue content.
Since a Hero's hero arc makes Praetoria out to be the dimension of the 'evil goatee' variety but the GR content will make it out to be the 'oppressive ruling elite with superpowers doing it for the good of humanity' variety. I still find the idea intriuging that potentially Primal Earth could screw up Praetoria more than just suddenly having an influx of good/evil super powered beings. Stuff tends to follow us through portals, Nemesis will see a dimension without him and ego wouldn't let that stand, after all, every dimension deserved the right to a real benevolent ruler. The Freakshow (and almost every other level 40-50 foe) have broken into Portal Corp before and muscled their way to a new universe, what's to stop them now? Malta are NOT going to like the idea of Praetoria, since it's their worst fear realised, so I can imagine detachments of Malta being snuck in to set up new cells there and take out any super powered being they can. Basically we're bring a whole heap of trouble with us through the portal and possibly making Praetoria a battleground for more than just the Resistance and Tyrant... |
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Didn't Perry Odd have his doomsday device set up like that once he became the supervillain Doctor Period?
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
What popular fiction have you read in which the villain's doomsday device is configured to be set off by typing a period? That sounds wacky enough to be a lot of fun.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Mmm... maybe. Upon further review, I thought it was The Full Stop.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Didn't Perry Odd have his doomsday device set up like that once he became the supervillain Doctor Period?
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Actually, I think Malta would be totally terrified of a Praetorian invasion - it'd be like their worst nightmare - a world ruled by meta-humans who've grouped together, and are totally ruthless.
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Originally Posted by KaliMagdalene
I can see Nemesis getting involved, but it seems more likely to me that the Malta Group is focused on primal Earth, and not likely to bother with Praetorian Earth until they have the utopia they want.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Statesman did lead an invasion into a sovereign nation, and several superheroes continue to support paramilitary incursions into that nation. The legality of these actions is highly debatable.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
So the Praetorian disinformation has already started, has it?
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Also, same nation engages in military incursions into the US, so.
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Exploration is frequently aggressive.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Exploring new dimensions isn't aggressive - it's not our fault if we get attacked there and have to take action
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Arachnos is oppressing the people of the Rogue Isles - so we're justified in looking for a little bit of regime change |
Originally Posted by KaliMagdalene
Statesman did lead an invasion into a sovereign nation, and several superheroes continue to support paramilitary incursions into that nation. The legality of these actions is highly debatable.
Also, same nation engages in military incursions into the US, so. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Perhaps Emperor Cole considers himself a benevolent despot or tyrant.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
They do rather let the side down by calling him "Tyrant", though. I mean, a man who adopts that as a stage name is either indulging in more irony than an emo-goth Partridge Family cover band or quite comfortably in touch with his inner evil.
 |
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What are "normal" people?
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But it is evil to normal people - so the Praetorians are the evil ones
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I think we'll find that he's not that benevolent |
Originally Posted by KaliMagdalene
Perhaps Emperor Cole considers himself a benevolent despot or tyrant.
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If he was, he wouldn't need so many police, or mind-readers
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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What does "better" mean? Do you have an objective measurement? You know, that same argument was used to justify colonialism and imperialism.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
No, we're not
We have a better idea of freedom, justice and what's right than Tyrant and his thugs - you'll see that once GR comes out |
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People who treat each other nicely, and respect other peoples' freedom and basic human rights - they're not the sort of people who call themselves "Tyrant", and rule a fascist state with an iron fist |
Originally Posted by KaliMagdalene
What are "normal" people?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I don't think colonialism and imperialism counts as promoting freedom or justice |
Originally Posted by KaliMagdalene
What does "better" mean? Do you have an objective measurement? You know, that same argument was used to justify colonialism and imperialism.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Comic book superheroes cover a wide array of genres, from relatively black and white golden age to the very ambiguous Watchmen (that did it better than pretty much the entire following iron age). Good stories don't strictly stay within a set of limits, especially a set of limits imposed by an outside body (the comics code authority). |
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
Well, yes, obviously. What Golden Girl is trying to point out is that they're wrong.
Look, this is a game based on superhero comics. For all that GR is supposed to be about moral ambiguity, moral ambiguity is not a theme that plays particularly well in superhero comics. It loads them up with a lot of philosophical claptrap that frankly belongs in some other genre. As such, I for one hope that GR's writing goes really light on it. A superhero comic is about punching bad guys in the face, and in such comics, iron-fisted hyper-authoritarians are bad guys regardless of in which precise way they wave their hands around while explaining to you why they do it while waiting for the deathtrap you're caught in to finish warming up. Anything else is just overintellectualizing a genre whose chief charm is its refreshing lack of intellectual crap. |
Saying "They're the bad guys, they're irredeemably evil, and that's that" is just about the least interesting possible way to present characters, and there's a reason that the so many of the most popular villains have more substance to them than that.
Also, anti-intellectualism is unflattering on anyone, without exception.
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Its not so very long ago in Human History, that a 'good man' was someone who treated his slaves well.
1772 in England, 1777 in Vermont (first part of what became the US) was the recognition that slavery was illegal.
The idea that 'owning' another person was wrong, and dare I say evil, was completely alien to many people before the abolitionist movements.
Of course it took a lot longer (a century or more) before the owning of slaves was abolished and the cessation of treating women as 'property' (of their fathers, or then their husbands) occurred in the West.
Were these people Evil ? Or just a product of the morals and over-riding opinions of their times.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617