Praetoria is NOT "goatee" Paragon
By
Anti_Proton,
Posted on: 2009-10-26 15:41 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Actually, you won't |
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
If someone makes a moral statement regarding Good or Evil, you can keep asking "Why" in response to everything they say, much like a 3 year old.
Keep at it, and you'll eventually get to the cold, withered core of an excuse: "Because I said so". |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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This is the general belief that I hold, yes, but I try and make concessions for those that don't hold such beliefs.|
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
There's still a meaningful discourse to be had, to be sure. I just like pointing out that morality tends to stem from personal preference, not absolute, universal truths, unless you believe that there is a larger universal truth creating that one in the first place.
This is fun!  |
Also, there are ways around that by trying to identify things that are generally held to be good or bad, even if they may not be necessarily universal. Case in point: utilitarianism. Pain is generally held to be bad. Pleasure is generally held to be good*. What is the moral thing to do at any given situation? Whatever causes the greatest net gain in pleasure, and least net gain pain.
*For those that gain pleasure from pain (weirdos
), that would make it a pleasure, not a pain. Kinda recursive definition, but it works.
@Morac | Twitter
Trust the computer. The computer knows all.
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Please back up statements like this with more than just one sentence comments. I'm finding this conversation interesting and you an interesting partner for such discourse, but when you are dismissive, it breakwalls the potential. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Actually, you won't
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Well, just reread what you wrote, then apply that to asking why it's wrong to kill someone for fun |
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
Please back up statements like this with more than just one sentence comments. I'm finding this conversation interesting and you an interesting partner for such discourse, but when you are dismissive, it breakwalls the potential.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I was actually thinking about my statement a bit while I was away from the desk, and I think I need to add a caveat.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Well, just reread what you wrote, then apply that to asking why it's wrong to kill someone for fun
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The only core human prerogative is to forward the survival of the species. Many have a preference for forwarding their own family line.
As killing for fun is counter-productive to the species, perhaps it can be categorized as not good.
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Wait, wait, wait.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Well, just reread what you wrote, then apply that to asking why it's wrong to kill someone for fun
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Kill who?
And for exactly HOW MUCH fun?
Paragon Unleashed, Unleash Yourself!
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So God is an evil despot? We've worked our way around to Gnosticism now?
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Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
The testing of Abraham by demanding the sacrifice of Isaac, which after the angellic intervention became a sacrifice of a Ram.
Story is common to all three Abrahamic religions. |
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
Question: can killing for fun be considered moral if the person really deserved it?
(Disclaimer: This is not a question stemming from my own beliefs, it is designed to get people talking).
@Morac | Twitter
Trust the computer. The computer knows all.
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Eating is kind of fun for some people, isn't it?
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Well, just reread what you wrote, then apply that to asking why it's wrong to kill someone for fun
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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There are plenty of examples in nature of damaging 'the species' to favour 'my family'. |
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
I was actually thinking about my statement a bit while I was away from the desk, and I think I need to add a caveat.
The only core human prerogative is to forward the survival of the species. Many have a preference for forwarding their own family line. As killing for fun is counter-productive to the species, perhaps it can be categorized as not good. |
Infanticide when a new alpha male takes over a pride/troop/generic-collective noun is just one example
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
-Time Out-
I just want to say how much fun it is to discuss morality and moral philosophy with people that actually know what the subject means.
Conversations with certain other friends have been.. unfulfilling.
-Time In-
Yeah, thats a pretty good summation of why I decided to pick up a philosophy minor.
@Morac | Twitter
Trust the computer. The computer knows all.
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I see that you prefer Disney villains over more realistic ones.|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
Ugh, no, see, that just falls into the equally irritating "turns out there are no heroes, Man is an animal, society is a veneer stretched over the law of the jungle" trap. That kind of thing is just as validly explorable, philosophically speaking, but also just as out of place in the simple world of the superhero.
Seriously, I'm just tired of all the postmodern self-examination in today's pop culture. It's why I love Atomic Robo so much. Those guys still get it: Nazis are bad, punch them in their face, the end.  |
The truth is, there are no villains. There ain't no good guy, there ain't no bad guy. There's just you and me and we both disagree....
Whoa-oh-oooh! o/~
Generally speaking, a discussion with people in real life that goes past what happened at work today, what the sports are like or what movie might be worth watching is exceedingly rare, I've found. Just finding someone who is even willing to discuss something less mundane and yet is not so rooted in a position as to reject arguments unquestioningly is a major score, in my experience.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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/agree
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Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
-Time Out-
I just want to say how much fun it is to discuss morality and moral philosophy with people that actually know what the subject means. Conversations with certain other friends have been.. unfulfilling. -Time In- |
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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To be fair, a large part of why people play games and watch movies is because they AREN'T like real life. So if someone wants a little less hardship and uncertainty and a little more good old-fashioned Nazi punching, I can hardly fault them for that.
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Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
I see that you prefer Disney villains over more realistic ones.
The truth is, there are no villains. There ain't no good guy, there ain't no bad guy. There's just you and me and we both disagree.... Whoa-oh-oooh! o/~ |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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So a serial killer is on the same level as Maritin Luther King? |
Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
I see that you prefer Disney villains over more realistic ones.
The truth is, there are no villains. There ain't no good guy, there ain't no bad guy. There's just you and me and we both disagree.... Whoa-oh-oooh! o/~ |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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That's really exaggerating to make a point, but let's try to play this game...|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
So a serial killer is on the same level as Maritin Luther King?
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There are a LOT of people that hated Martin Luther King Jr., which is exactly why he had to be who he was: Because the people that hated him were the dominate force in our country. A country that considered itself (As all countries do) to be very moral. People believed their religions justified racism, and that they were doing the right thing.
You and I would call them wrong, but that's the exact moral relativism that I'm trying to explain.
Now, would anyone say EVERYONE'S on the exact same level of morality? Some. But, as I stated before, the best measurement isn't "You're good" or "you're bad". There's "you're better than they who are worse than you".
A more recent example would be the way American society treats the LGBT community. One side feels that denying people rights is evil. The other side feels that advocating or forgiving an immoral lifestyle is evil. Both would think they're right.*
Did I lose my train of thought? It feels like it.
*I am NOT getting into which one is. It's very easy to track my view on these forums, but, rather than derail the thread, I'm summarizing what those sides feel without injecting my own opinion.
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I see what you did there!|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
So a serial killer is on the same level as Maritin Luther King?
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I'd say that maybe you ought to actually start adding something meaningful and relevant to the conversation at hand instead of snippy little one-liners that are only designed to cut-off actual thought since they provide neither insight nor proof of any kind, but this is... what... only my second post in this thread so far?
So, yeah.
Good and Evil are terms each person defines for themselves, based on their culture, their own personality, and how much thought they're willing to put into it. Of course if a person tells you "I believe that general statement X", you can always say "but what about extremely specific situation Y where general statement X could be applied in various dramatically different ways". As I said: you can do that, but you really shouldn't, because the sort of person who always asks questions like that is considered to be very tiresome and doesn't get invited to parties.
It's much easier, to avoid tiresome people like that, never to say "I believe that general statement X". Instead, you should create a world in which general statement X is always true without exception, and write a book or movie or game that takes place in that world and shows general statement X to be true, and then turn it into a bestseller. This way, when the tiresome person reads your book and comes up with their extremely specific hypothetical example that calls your belief into question, you are miles away enjoying a nice glass of sherry and counting the profits you made off the royalty fees.
Character index
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I'm totally with this. In fact, I think I'll be writing all my stories just like this!|
Originally Posted by Silver Gale
Good and Evil are terms each person defines for themselves, based on their culture, their own personality, and how much thought they're willing to put into it. Of course if a person tells you "I believe that general statement X", you can always say "but what about extremely specific situation Y where general statement X could be applied in various dramatically different ways". As I said: you can do that, but you really shouldn't, because the sort of person who always asks questions like that is considered to be very tiresome and doesn't get invited to parties.
It's much easier, to avoid tiresome people like that, never to say "I believe that general statement X". Instead, you should create a world in which general statement X is always true without exception, and write a book or movie or game that takes place in that world and shows general statement X to be true, and then turn it into a bestseller. This way, when the tiresome person reads your book and comes up with their extremely specific hypothetical example that calls your belief into question, you are miles away enjoying a nice glass of sherry and counting the profits you made off the royalty fees. |
You know, I think maybe I already do. I'll be laughing all the way to the bank!
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I think it provides proof that good and evil aren't the same |
Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
I see what you did there!
I'd say that maybe you ought to actually start adding something meaningful and relevant to the conversation at hand instead of snippy little one-liners that are only designed to cut-off actual thought since they provide neither insight nor proof of any kind, but this is... what... only my second post in this thread so far? So, yeah. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Which is why this subject of discussion is called "Moral relativism", not "Good and Evil sameyness". |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I think it provides proof that good and evil aren't the same
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Also, I was hardly getting into the recursive "why?" loop, I was merely asking for some sort of justification.
This is fun!