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Funny, but it seems that the more experienced the tank is, the worst it is. Care to explain me how having a really good herding tank would make it better for me?
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Originally Posted by LostHalo
Your experience is relegated solely to bad Tanks then.
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"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
Empaths and herding tanks - now there is a blast from the past 
I'll tell you exactly why some people find Empathy to be a lackluster set: because they only see it as a healing set, and the only reason it is seen as a healing set by many people is because it just happens to have the greatest amount of heals. And the reason why they are declared useless by some people is because those people realized that Co* is an MMO that doesn't require healing.
Thus, their train of logic is basically as simple as, healing isn't necessary + Empathy is a healing set = Empathy is a useless set.
I use to have a 45 Empathy/Dark Blast defender, and I'll tell you right now that anyone and everyone who views Empathy as a healing set is WRONG. Valuing Empathy only for it's heals is like valuing your computer because you can play Solitaire on it. They can do SO MUCH MORE. In fact, I'd go so far to say that the less amount of healing you have to do when playing Empathy the more useful you are to your team, because your spending less time restoring arbitrary hit points and more time blasting, buffing, and doing whatever else you can to benefit the team.
On my Empathy defender I spent the least amount of time healing and probably the most amount of time blasting, not because I was a blaster at heart who accidentally rolled a defender, but because it was better than sitting around doing absolutely nothing waiting for someone to need a heal. And to be honest I valued my blasts much more for their secondary effects than their actual damage. As /Dark Blast -ACC leads to less attacks actually hitting my teammates which actually means I need to heal even less.
The key to playing Empathy effectively isn't knowing only how to best use your heals, but how to also incorporate every other aspect of your character as efficiently as possible. I.e. utilizing your blasts for damage as well as debuffing purposes, who best to put Fortitude onto, and who to keep buffed with Clear Mind and who to use it reactively on.
An Empathy defender only utilizing their heals is only playing a small fraction of a complete character, and to me the only value that holds for any team is dead weight...
Just try to steer wanna be healers towards miasma instead. Lots of debuffs AND an excellent heal. There they can learn to do something other than heal and still be able to throw up nice big green healzor numbers.
Oh, and a rez that brings multiple toons back to life at once! What's more healzor then that? Not even empaths can claim that one. 
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Not to brag, but I'm of the last type of Empathy Defender you listed. I only heal when it's needed and give buffs to who I think will use them best, AB to whose endurance is bad or who could use the recharge the most, and, sometimes coupled with fort, to who takes the most damage so that I don't have to keep healing them (I avoid healing whenever possible, and buffing a person every 2 minutes is a lot easier than healing them every 10 seconds). Sad thing is, I'm not a Defender. I'm an Illusion controller. |
Originally Posted by Balanced
Empathy has sort of an odd learning curve, I think. It's not like Storm, which has a learning curve of "ThisSucksThisSucksThisSucksThisSucks...THIS ROCKS!" It's more like a series of plateaus, with a steep slope looming over them.
Basic healing is easy, and Empaths get praised for it early on, which I think leads far too many players to stop there, on the Aura Rocker plateau. On the edges of the plateau, you'll find a few more adventurous types playing Whack-A-Mole with health bars. The problem is, that sucks, and the suckage increases with level. They usually don't notice. Aura buffs are also pretty easy to use, and they form the next plateau. This is where the Gatherers live. You can hear them calling out to their teams whenever the RAs recharge. This, of course, interrupts whatever the teams are doing, but at least they get some really nice buffs out of it. Single-target buffs require a lot more work than auras. You have to pick targets, and renew the buffs often. It involves a lot more clicking, which distracts one from the game of Health-Bar Whack-A-Mole. This leads to the plateau where the Tank Polishers live. The Polishers choose a Tank and attach themselves, remora-like. This allows them to simplify their single-target buffing by only buffing the Tank (whether the Tank needs that buff or not), and they get to feed on the bits of xp the Tank drops (Tanks are messy eaters). On the slopes above all the plateaus, you find the real Empaths. These defenders use their powers dynamically, firing auras on the fly when the natural flow of combat clumps the team for them, covering as many of the team as possible with single-target buffs based on an every-shifting set of efficiency and safety critera, spot-healing when bad luck or mistakes open holes in the team's defenses, and contributing with damage and control. Not all of them are equally skilled in these endeavors, but they have all abandoned the easy life on the plateaus for the sake of their teammates. They do not ask for praise for their "healz", nor do they demand special treatment. To make such a sacrifice, they might say, is simply the way of the Defender. Treat them with the respect due a fellow hero, and maybe they'll make you a god for a little while. |
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THIS ! |
Originally Posted by Kurugi
Valuing Empathy only for it's heals is like valuing your computer because you can play Solitaire on it. They can do SO MUCH MORE. In fact, I'd go so far to say that the less amount of healing you have to do when playing Empathy the more useful you are to your team, because your spending less time restoring arbitrary hit points and more time blasting, buffing, and doing whatever else you can to benefit the team.
The key to playing Empathy effectively isn't knowing only how to best use your heals, but how to also incorporate every other aspect of your character as efficiently as possible. I.e. utilizing your blasts for damage as well as debuffing purposes, who best to put Fortitude onto, and who to keep buffed with Clear Mind and who to use it reactively on. |
I would go so far as to say, you can judge how well you are playing your Empathy exactly by the amount of Healing that you are doing. Because unless your team is going after spawns/missions way beyond their capabilities, your buffs WILL reduce the amount of active healing you need to use and thereby increasing the amount of blasting you can afford, and more DPS (even Def level dps) shortens the fight and also the amount of overall healing needed.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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I agree with most of what people said about Empathy here. I don't claim to be the best empath out there. But I dare say I play a reasonably good one. However, I'm one of the few people who play a "dictated" character. I'm NOT playing a dictated healer, rather than a dictated support character. I'm pretty sure that if I use my Empath's attacks (Dark Blast) I will help kill the mobs quickly, and more importantly, give the baddies the -ToHitBuff that will make them hit my teammates less often (which I only do against AVs when I get a break from buffing/healing), which means less healing for me. But to me when you're the sole support character available you will want to be dictated to it. If you're attacking then that one or two seconds you spend casting a certain attack might be the one or two seconds you need to heal a teammate before they faceplant. Because most often when I'm playing my Empath I'm on an SG team, and we like to set the difficulty settings as high as it's possible to make it with a good team without faceplanting every other mob.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
THIS !
I would go so far as to say, you can judge how well you are playing your Empathy exactly by the amount of Healing that you are doing. Because unless your team is going after spawns/missions way beyond their capabilities, your buffs WILL reduce the amount of active healing you need to use and thereby increasing the amount of blasting you can afford, and more DPS (even Def level dps) shortens the fight and also the amount of overall healing needed. |
For me, there a few guidelines that I use when using Empathy...It's what *I* do. If anyone can give me notes or corrections it'll be much appreciated.
1- Know your team. It's the most basic advice. Knowing the make up of your team will enable you to make the best out of it.
2- Know your buffs and where they best help. Forting a Stone Tank is useless, for example. But an Electric Armor or Dark Armor Tank might probably appreciate your Fort unless they're IO'd to the throat. Personally my priorities for fort are as follows (note that my Emp can keep Fort on up to 4 people at a time on a 33+ team): Squishy Tanks -> Scrappers -> Fire Controllers (because they tend to stay in melee [Hot Feet]) -> Blasters.
3- Adrenaline boost is changing for me. I like to give it to people who have the best AoE damage. A Fire Blaster or Archery Blaster with both Fort and Adrenaline boost is a beastly killing machine. While for example an Ice Blaster is probably not so good to use AB on because Ice Blast recharges fast as is, and it's single target oriented. And it's also one thing that Nuke happy Blasters will love you for if you cast it after they Nuke so they can recovery End immediately after (That's of course provided you have at least one End Mod slotted in AB).
4- Clear Mind is very situational... When facing mezzers I like to keep it up on all squishies to avoid mezzes. And if facing mobs with people who can invis it's good to cast it on everyone because of the +Perception buff.
5- Do NOT cast your RAs on a team while it's on stand by. Cast it on the fly. Position yourself so that it covers as many teammates as possible and fire in the midst of battle. THAT is where they're most helpful. Not when the team is AFK or waiting for something and the timer for the RAs runs out.
6- Empathy is, for me, the one Power set that can consistently run withOUT Stamina. I've been running mine for about a year without it and never had End problems. That frees up three power slots that can be used for something more useful (Leadership takes priority here IMO, since Defenders get the best out of it. Minus Assault maybe).
7- When facing mezzers and someone dies, it's best to cast CM on anyone you Veng -> Rez immediately after especially meleers so they won't get mezzed before they activated their mez protection toggle. Another thing...Resurrect has a very short range. Learn to joust it (with either super speed or fly). Target the dead person, Queue Resurrect, then rush PAST them quickly. The power will activate as soon as you're in range, but you're still running away, you'll quickly be out of danger without having to stand in the middle of a crazy melee/AoE fight while still having done your job.
8- This point MANY people disagree with me on. But Personally I see Hover as an essential power for me to have on my Empath. It allows me to stay out of Melee and most AoE attacks while still in the range for my Auras to affect everyone and throw my heals/buffs without trouble. An empath can't be in the midst of the melee fight, and sometimes the surroundings can block your Line of Sight, or you just simply can't get through to them because of mobs.
9- Another thing...In CoX healing doesn't bring aggro. So having stealth on your character will help ensure that you're rarely detected unless you're attacking. That means that angry baddy that managed to escape the Tank's taunt Aura won't notice the squishy you in the distance and serve a beating. A Stealth IO in your travel power will do. This also enables you to do the Stealth/TP stuff (especially if you have Super Speed to suppliment the stealth from the IO). Because it's highly recommended to have Recall Friend IMO.
10- One last thing..know your heals. Yes, it's very basic. But it's important too. If you see a teammate getting heavily assaulted and their HP is already in the Orange or Red zone do NOT use Absorb Pain. Absorb Pain has about a 1-1.5 second delay before the heal itself kicks in. Hit them with Heal Other THEN immediately queue up Absorb Pain to bring them back to full HP, and probably Fort them as well.
Anyways.. Those are my 10 personal guildlines I use when playing my Empath. If anyone has any advice I can use to further improve my Empath career I'll be thankful.
@Sparky Jenkins || Freedom Server | Union Server
Main Hero: Inferno Sparky - Fire/Fire Blaster
Main Villain: Kerry Astrid - Fire/Cold Corruptor
Build for flexibility. Buff as available. Heal as needed. Blast as opportunity or need arise.
That's all there is to it. Empathy isn't rocket surgery.
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Maybe not rocket science, but it's certainly not simple.
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Originally Posted by SkeetSkeet
Build for flexibility. Buff as available. Heal as needed. Blast as opportunity or need arise.
That's all there is to it. Empathy isn't rocket surgery. |
@Sparky Jenkins || Freedom Server | Union Server
Main Hero: Inferno Sparky - Fire/Fire Blaster
Main Villain: Kerry Astrid - Fire/Cold Corruptor
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I've played the support role in many other MMOs along with CoX and one important trait I've developed that really helps when playing this role is to play preemptively instead of reactively. Many times if you wait until after something happens to react it's already too late, but if you can see it coming ahead of time you can respond a lot quicker.|
Originally Posted by Wanted_NA
If you're attacking then that one or two seconds you spend casting a certain attack might be the one or two seconds you need to heal a teammate before they faceplant.
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| 2- Know your buffs and where they best help. Forting a Stone Tank is useless, for example. But an Electric Armor or Dark Armor Tank might probably appreciate your Fort unless they're IO'd to the throat. Personally my priorities for fort are as follows (note that my Emp can keep Fort on up to 4 people at a time on a 33+ team): Squishy Tanks -> Scrappers -> Fire Controllers (because they tend to stay in melee [Hot Feet]) -> Blasters. |
I kinda wanna remake my Empath now... xD
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That's very true. And that's where your buffs come in. You also need to keep an eye on your surrounds to see if a group of mobs is heading towards someone so you can get ready to heal. So, IMO, if you're busy doing all that stuff you're really too busy to attack unless your team has everything under control for sure..But then again, one wrong click or an off attack might require your immediate attention to avoid a team wipe. It's happened many times before...this is the prime reason I go for support and no offence mostly.|
Originally Posted by Kurugi
I've played the support role in many other MMOs along with CoX and one important trait I've developed that really helps when playing this role is to play preemptively instead of reactively. Many times if you wait until after something happens to react it's already too late, but if you can see it coming ahead of time you can respond a lot quicker.
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| You might also want to take note of any melee oriented blasters (blappers as they're sometimes called) on your team as well, and prioritize them for fort since they'll be in melee range a lot like the scrappers but won't have near the same level of survivability due to not having much in the way of defense. Most "blapper" blasters are usually /Elec or /Energy due to those secondaries having the strongest melee attacks, so that's something to keep in mind when you find one on your team. |
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| I kinda wanna remake my Empath now... xD |
@Sparky Jenkins || Freedom Server | Union Server
Main Hero: Inferno Sparky - Fire/Fire Blaster
Main Villain: Kerry Astrid - Fire/Cold Corruptor
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That's also where your attacks come in.......killing the enemy BEFORE trouble begins. |
Originally Posted by Wanted_NA
That's very true. And that's where your buffs come in
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Not providing your share of offense only leads to more trouble, not less. All deaths occur because the battle didn't end soon enough. The longer any battle goes on, the higher the risk for failure.
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Only bad teams, bad builds, and bad players have one source of support. |
Originally Posted by Wanted_NA
But to me when you're the sole support character available you will want to be dictated to it.
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Everyone has support in this game; both in their powers, in their inspirations, and in their ability to keep cognizant watch over their team and situation.
so, I guess I'm going to play the bad guy in this discussion.
Empathy by itself is by far the weakest hero-side (de)buff set
however, Empathy, when stacked with itself, is by far the strongest (de)buff set in the game, nothing else can bring what stacked empaths bring.
So, lets examine why it's weak by itself.
the majority of its mitigation is reactionary. I know this seems incorrect, but lets examine the set's non-reactionary powers
Fortitude - starts out with just capable of perma on 2, with slotting and hasten, in theory you can get that up to 5, but the best empaths Ive seen (and ive teamed with quite a few) can only keep it up on 3-4, meaning a full half of a team is left without the mitigation it brings, in a best case scenario.
Regen/Recovery Aura - ok, recovery doesn't really provide mitigation, but if I didnt mention it, someone would complain. Even with slotting and hasten, these powers are not up 1/2 the time, leaving lots of down time where you're playing whack-a-mole with health bars
Adrenaline Boost - slotting and hasten makes its down time still above 20 seconds, not that that's the issue. even perma, it will only be on 1 team mate, assuming it's not one you fortitude (not necessarily the best strategy, but for survivability's sake, I could see it) you've still got 2 team-mates + yourself that doesn't have anything on them.
No
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
I think you underestimate our fools, sir.
Why /duel is a bad idea
Sheesh..that one long *** post.
Empaths Suck
/badstorm
Between the RAs, Fort, Rez and Adrenalin boost, Empathy seems to be one of those sets that benefits from lots of +recharge.
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I would agree with all this - Empathy is less than stellar on full teams of 8. It shines both in superteams and on small 3-4 person teams, PuG or otherwise.|
Originally Posted by Psyonico
so, I guess I'm going to play the bad guy in this discussion.
Empathy by itself is by far the weakest hero-side (de)buff set however, Empathy, when stacked with itself, is by far the strongest (de)buff set in the game, nothing else can bring what stacked empaths bring. So, lets examine why it's weak by itself. the majority of its mitigation is reactionary. I know this seems incorrect, but lets examine the set's non-reactionary powers Fortitude - starts out with just capable of perma on 2, with slotting and hasten, in theory you can get that up to 5, but the best empaths Ive seen (and ive teamed with quite a few) can only keep it up on 3-4, meaning a full half of a team is left without the mitigation it brings, in a best case scenario. Regen/Recovery Aura - ok, recovery doesn't really provide mitigation, but if I didnt mention it, someone would complain. Even with slotting and hasten, these powers are not up 1/2 the time, leaving lots of down time where you're playing whack-a-mole with health bars Adrenaline Boost - slotting and hasten makes its down time still above 20 seconds, not that that's the issue. even perma, it will only be on 1 team mate, assuming it's not one you fortitude (not necessarily the best strategy, but for survivability's sake, I could see it) you've still got 2 team-mates + yourself that doesn't have anything on them. |
Its weird really, how the "heroic" Empathy set is all about choosing favourites for your buffs and leaving everyone else out in the cold, while the "villainous" counterpart Pain Domination applies its buffs much more evenly to the whole team.
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It's almost like a variant manifestation of the hero=specialist and villain=generalist paradigm. |
Originally Posted by DrMike2000
I would agree with all this - Empathy is less than stellar on full teams of 8. It shines both in superteams and on small 3-4 person teams, PuG or otherwise.
Its weird really, how the "heroic" Empathy set is all about choosing favourites for your buffs and leaving everyone else out in the cold, while the "villainous" counterpart Pain Domination applies its buffs much more evenly to the whole team. |
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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Originally Posted by Orehrepus
Sheesh..that one long *** post.
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You referring to my post, Ore?
What about it? :P
@Sparky Jenkins || Freedom Server | Union Server
Main Hero: Inferno Sparky - Fire/Fire Blaster
Main Villain: Kerry Astrid - Fire/Cold Corruptor
The trickiest thing about playing anything empathy is time management. Of the people that can play empathy with some competence, many can benefit from better time management. For the most part it's just a matter of being less lazy. It's disappointing to see an emp keeping only one fort up and shout for RA every once in a while and call it a day, when you know he could be doing a lot more.
And then there are a lot of folks out there that just have the wrong idea about empathy.
In general it's a safe bet to just assume everyone you meet can't play until you actually see them play ^_^
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Amen.
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Originally Posted by Nemu_
And then there are a lot of folks out there that just have the wrong idea about empathy.
In general it's a safe bet to just assume everyone you meet can't play until you actually see them play ^_^ |
Just my 2 inf, but EMPs are great at lower levels, but at higher levels they aren't really needed. IMO Control/Debuffs are much more desirable for the higher level content.
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
If you dont have Fort on 2-3 people at a time, you're doing it wrong.
The only defender I've been able to keep hold of is my Empath/Psi, who is very fun to play?
Why? Because I take pride in making sure that team members die once in a blue moon. Sure, you get the odd one on a PuG who doesnt get the meaning of 'Stick close'.
And the only time I've ever stuck Healing Aura on auto was on the ship raid last Friday, because I wanted to be slapping Clear Mind on the two MMs in the team (rest had mez shields) and so I could keep the buffs flowing.
That, and I was the Raid Leader, so...maybe I can just multitask well? Pfft, yeah right, homework pile says otherwise 
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~