Most Useless Blueside Class?
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2009-10-07 18:07 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Given the structure of the PvE game and the roles of the ATs within that game, the most "useless" blueside ATs are Tankers and Defenders. Why? In the case of Defenders, a Controller is bringing more to the table in almost every situation, and in the case of Tankers, you don't need aggro control when everything's buffed to the gills and there's layered support to stop incoming damage on the squishies.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Also,
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Blaster
Primary Power Set: Psychic Blast
Secondary Power Set: Devices
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Presence
Ancillary Pool: Cold Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Psionic Dart -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Web Grenade -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 2: Caltrops -- Range-I(A), Dmg-I(13), EndRdx-I(15), Dmg-I(15), RechRdx-I(46)
Level 4: Taser -- Dmg-I(A), Dmg-I(5), Dmg-I(5), RechRdx-I(7), EndRdx-I(7), RechRdx-I(9)
Level 6: Psychic Focus -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A), Jump-I(9), Jump-I(11)
Level 10: Targeting Drone -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(11), ToHit-I(13)
Level 12: Maneuvers -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(17), DefBuff-I(17), DefBuff-I(19)
Level 14: Health -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(19), Heal-I(21)
Level 16: Smoke Grenade -- ToHitDeb-I(A), ToHitDeb-I(21), ToHitDeb-I(23), RechRdx-I(23)
Level 18: Boxing -- Dmg-I(A), Dmg-I(25), Dmg-I(25), EndRdx-I(27), RechRdx-I(27), RechRdx-I(29)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(31), EndMod-I(33)
Level 22: Cloaking Device -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(33), DefBuff-I(33), EndRdx-I(34)
Level 24: Tough -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(34), ResDam-I(36), ResDam-I(36), ResDam-I(36)
Level 26: Weave -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(34), DefBuff-I(37), DefBuff-I(37), DefBuff-I(37)
Level 28: Provoke -- Taunt-I(A), Taunt-I(39), RechRdx-I(39), RechRdx-I(39)
Level 30: Tactics -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(40), ToHit-I(40)
Level 32: Kick -- Dmg-I(A), Dmg-I(42), Dmg-I(42), RechRdx-I(43), RechRdx-I(43), EndRdx-I(43)
Level 35: Challenge -- Taunt-I(A), Taunt-I(40), RechRdx-I(42), RechRdx-I(45)
Level 38: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 41: Snow Storm -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(45)
Level 44: Frozen Armor -- DefBuff-I(A), EndRdx-I(45), DefBuff-I(46), DefBuff-I(46)
Level 47: Hoarfrost -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(48), Heal-I(48), Heal-I(48), Heal-I(50), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 49: Hibernate -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A), Empty(3), Empty(3), Empty(29), Empty(31), Empty(31)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Defiance
Code:
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-Recruited under Arachnos' "Equal-Opportunity Villainy" plan-
Quote:
This is an odd definition of useless you're using. Being worse at teaming than Controllers is like losing at arm-wrestling against the Incredible Hulk - it by no means you're bad, just that your opponent is insanely good. Defenders have a specialty that is extremely good in teams. That makes them very useful indeed. The only situations where I wouldn't prioritize adding Defenders to a team are 1) if the team doesn't have a tank and we're running content that actually needs a tank, which is quite rare. 2) When I can completely fill the team with Controllers.|
Originally Posted by macskull
Given the structure of the PvE game and the roles of the ATs within that game, the most "useless" blueside ATs are Tankers and Defenders. Why? In the case of Defenders, a Controller is bringing more to the table in almost every situation, and in the case of Tankers, you don't need aggro control when everything's buffed to the gills and there's layered support to stop incoming damage on the squishies.
|
Being definitively ahead of 2 archetypes in team desirability, and situationally (and a very common situation it is) ahead of a third, is a long way from being "useless."
TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
Quote:
I get that people don't like that Controllers can do everything Defeders do, and are only negligably worse at it than Defenders. And I agree that should be addressed. But the tradeoff is control for damage. That is a sucky tradeoff for the controller. You can control things all day if you're desperate to surivive, but it's damage brings home the bacon... and (well, the game might be shifting a little away from this with new difficulty sliders combined with PuGs but...) few teams are desperate for a survival edge.|
Originally Posted by Silverado
I agree with the first part of the post, but you seem to contradict yourself on the list.
Based on the principles you stated, I'd put Controllers and Defenders on the first 2 spots (Controller first, as they have both good AoE damage and buff/debuff). Then I'd put Tanker and Blasters on the 3th and 4th spot (which would be up to debate, since Tankers fill both the role of aggro control/management and are also able to put out some respectable AoE damage, but not as much as Blasters) |
So I can see quibbling about whether controllers are 2nd or 3rd. But ahead of Defenders? No. Plant ahead of Psi, Sonic, or Energy Blast? Maybe. Generalized across ATs? Well, I've been wrong before. Twice, in fact. But I play a lot of controllers and defenders, and reasonably strong defenders outperform reasonably strong controllers.
Choosing a Controller V2 | Splattrollers | Plant/Rad | Fire/Storm | Mind/Emp & Mind/Rad
Weird Controller Powers | Conf & XP/Time | Controller Damage
Being a Healer | The word Necessary | Natural Concept Characters
Ok so if you want to be annoying you could... make a Force Field / Energy Blast Defender.
The knockback would just be hilarious. Take all energy blast and slot for knockback, spam force bolt, run around with repulsion field (in particular near the melee fighters), and when you get it, keep force bubble on!
Take energy torrent and explosive blast to knockback enemies more, and power push.
This I would consider to be, the worst character to make.
Quote:
You'll notice that I put the word useless in quotations in my post. I don't think any AT is useless in the formal definition of the word, but I do think that some ATs are far more useful than others for the majority of PvE situations. A good tank is nice (but far from a necessity) on the STF and makes the last mission much easier. In the low-to-mid level game a Defender's preferable to a Controller because they're contributing more in the buff/debuff department at a time when most people aren't slotted well if at all, and Controllers might not have their AoE controls yet (or they won't be well-slotted). Tankers might also be preferable in those situations because of their higher HP, better defenses, and aggro control abilities. However, once you get into the upper levels, usually in the 40+ game, Controllers have their AoE controls well slotted and an AoE from their epic pool, which means most of the time they'll be doing scale 1.1 damage to their targets, which doesn't factor in any damage buffs or resistance debuffs they're putting out. Against hard single targets, Tankers might be preferable to ensure aggro doesn't get loose, but on many higher-level teams buffs and debuffs are plentiful and the squishies simply aren't getting hit (or not taking as much damage, or getting it healed or regen'd back).|
Originally Posted by Jabbrwock
This is an odd definition of useless you're using. Being worse at teaming than Controllers is like losing at arm-wrestling against the Incredible Hulk - it by no means you're bad, just that your opponent is insanely good. Defenders have a specialty that is extremely good in teams. That makes them very useful indeed. The only situations where I wouldn't prioritize adding Defenders to a team are 1) if the team doesn't have a tank and we're running content that actually needs a tank, which is quite rare. 2) When I can completely fill the team with Controllers.
Being definitively ahead of 2 archetypes in team desirability, and situationally (and a very common situation it is) ahead of a third, is a long way from being "useless." |
There's nothing wrong with Defenders or Tankers, and I'd take one on my team played by a competent player over something else played by someone I don't know, but they are unfortunately redundant in the late game. Tankers I can understand - they give up damage for superior hit points, aggro control, and defenses, but Defenders not so much: they have a crappy inherent, the lowest damage of any heroside AT (excepting Controllers not using Containment), low hit points, and get their blasts later, all in the name of having marginally stronger buffs and debuffs.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Quote:
I'd think Storm / Energy would be worse. Hurricane and Gale will knock more things around than Force Bolt and Repulsion Field, and you also have Tornado to toss in (be sure to drop it near mobs that aren't immobilized... preferably in a position where it can wander off into an unaggroed group).|
Originally Posted by Kendai
Ok so if you want to be annoying you could... make a Force Field / Energy Blast Defender.
The knockback would just be hilarious. Take all energy blast and slot for knockback, spam force bolt, run around with repulsion field (in particular near the melee fighters), and when you get it, keep force bubble on! Take energy torrent and explosive blast to knockback enemies more, and power push. This I would consider to be, the worst character to make. |
Illusion / FF might also be a good contender, though it loses points for drawing aggro to the invulnerable decoys... it's chaotic but it lacks that "we wiped how many times?!?" feel you get from a badly played Storm / Energy.
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636
This seems like a pretty useless tank to me >.>
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 48 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Electric Armor
Secondary Power Set: Ice Melee
Power Pool: Medicine
Power Pool: Teleportation
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Lightning Field -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Frozen Fists -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Ice Sword -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Frost -- Empty(A)
Level 6: Stimulant -- Empty(A)
Level 8: Grounded -- Empty(A)
Level 10: Taunt -- Empty(A)
Level 12: Teleport Foe -- Empty(A)
Level 14: Teleport -- Empty(A)
Level 16: Air Superiority -- Empty(A)
Level 18: Hover -- Empty(A)
Level 20: Group Fly -- Empty(A)
Level 22: Team Teleport -- Empty(A)
Level 24: Hasten -- Empty(A)
Level 26: Lightning Reflexes -- Empty(A)
Level 28: Whirlwind -- Empty(A)
Level 30: Flurry -- Empty(A)
Level 32: Aid Self -- Empty(A)
Level 35: Resuscitate -- Empty(A)
Level 38: Build Up -- Empty(A)
Level 41: Conserve Power -- Empty(A)
Level 44: Focused Accuracy -- Empty(A)
Level 47: Physical Perfection -- Empty(A)
Level 49: Energy Torrent -- Empty(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Tell your wife not to log in...
currently reading: A Mighty Fortress (David Weber)
Quote:
I guess I'm used to "Panic button" sets. You're right, traps is there to prevent problems, but its still slow to me. The powers dont recharge fast enough and on some mobs you have nothing to offer except the force field. I've had more team wipes playing a traps and trick arrow defenders than all other sets combined. But that's just me|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
If the team is dying around the Traps Defender, it's because the Traps Defender failed to use the Traps to their fullest potential at the start; Traps is not a "panic" set, it's a "control" set. There is a lot of good to come of Traps, but you have to use them before disaster occurs. Traps prevent disasters, they don't repair them.
|
Thats why I nominate them for worst sets to play.
Global: @Fire Beam
What level is your trapper? I´m slotted with SO´s and common io´s and i have no problems with traps recharging slow. I do use my secondary though.
A Dwarven Priest. 
Nothing says "useless" like a short, furry man in a dress.
*Wonders if Yoda left any love-children behind among the Wookies*
I'm not here to make you laugh.
Quote:
Stop skipping the Tier 1 powers. Web Grenade and Entangling Arrow are nice - Immobilise to make your AoEs more effective, and -recharge to make hard hitters do so less often.
|
Originally Posted by marc100
I guess I'm used to "Panic button" sets. You're right, traps is there to prevent problems, but its still slow to me. The powers dont recharge fast enough and on some mobs you have nothing to offer except the force field. I've had more team wipes playing a traps and trick arrow defenders than all other sets combined. But that's just me
Thats why I nominate them for worst sets to play. |
im having a hard time with this one, not many useless AT combos out there
i have a TA/AR defender and i made him as a joke thinking the redraw would be horrible.
i didnt expect it but hes pretty dern good, in fact i did positron-synapse-sister- and citadel in one day on him and made 30th leading the teams.
but id say that had more to do with knowing how to utilize my powers and of course having good company 
if i were you , i tell her to make a fire/kin controller and take repel-bonfire-provoke-group fly
skip SB FS transfusion and transferance,
lol, even then you wouldent be useless, but most people would get a kick out of it
i guess what im trying to say is no AT combo is useless, but you can take just about any build and ruin it to get the same effect-----Flurry FTW ( but flurry is good in PvP- DRAT!!)
Summary: You can build and play for uselessness, but the AT and powersets are almost completely irrelevant for doing that. The only relevant aspect to choosing AT and powersets is when there's a specific way you want be a failure and hindrance to teams.
Some sets are harder to use effectively, so in that regard they're relevant to how intentional you want your level of fail to be.
Easiest useless character: Use any AT. Do not use any powers besides Sprint and Brawl. Run ahead of team and brawl unaggroed mobs. As soon as mobs begin attacking run back to team. Repeat. Bonus points for shouting "heal me1!! while you do it.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
There are no useless ATs, merely useless players playing those ATs.
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Quote:
A Scrapper can be used in place of a Tanker. In fact if a Tanker is "needed" then I don't think there is anyone who knows what they're talking about. If a Kin is "needed" then whoever "needs" a Kin don't know any alternative methods and Rads should never be a necessity.|
Originally Posted by Silverado
You'll often hear "man we need a rad for this ITF!" or "we need a kin and a tank for this STF!" but rarely you will hear "man we can't start this without a scrapper!" from anyone who knows what they're talking about
|
On topic, you really have to pick a primary and secondary that you are most likely to be rubbish at and then build poorly.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Yeah, this game is too well balanced. If you want to play a useless class, play something else.
Quote:
Except your average Scrapper player fails miserably at providing the grouping function of a Tank that at least understands what they're doing. The only Scrappers that do pull it off are ones that have actually played good Tanks or builds with nonstandard playstyles like Spines/DA as opposed to "Lol, my Clawlz/SR can do it! Wait, why is everything ignoring me now?"|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
A Scrapper can be used in place of a Tanker.
|
I will put it this way though:
If I have the choice of a Tank or a Scrapper and I already have a Tank, the second Tank better know exactly what they're doing or they're a waste of space (it's called leapfrog or hopscotch). A Scrapper can almost always be relied upon for at least hitting stuff. Although some have failed at doing even that.
Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~
I'd say Defender, in particular I'd FF/Electric I suppose. Controllers' primarires are the same support powersets as Defender, with a slightly smaller modifier, plus they have a whole 'nother support powerset as their primary. 2 support powersets > 1 support powerset.
So Tenacious T, After all these damn AT wars going on in your thread, did you find one that your wife can be absolutely horrid at?
Pinnacle - The Drunk Server!
MAIN: Desi Boy> Level 51 Fire/Fire Tank
Super Group: C.O.R.E.
Tanking since 05'
Vigilante
MAIN: Desi Boy> Level 51 Fire/Fire Tank
Super Group: C.O.R.E.
Tanking since 05'
Vigilante
Did somebody say useless?
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Controller
Primary Power Set: Gravity Control
Secondary Power Set: Storm Summoning
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Flight
Ancillary Pool: Psionic Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Lift -- KBDist-I(A), KBDist-I(7), KBDist-I(9), RechRdx-I(9), EndRdx-I(11), EndRdx-I(11)
Level 1: Gale -- KBDist-I(A), KBDist-I(3), KBDist-I(3), EndRdx-I(5), RechRdx-I(5), EndRdx-I(7)
Level 2: O2 Boost -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 4: Crush -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 6: Propel -- KBDist-I(A), KBDist-I(13), KBDist-I(13), EndRdx-I(15), RechRdx-I(27)
Level 8: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A), Jump-I(17), Jump-I(19)
Level 10: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(19), RechRdx-I(21)
Level 12: Kick -- KBDist-I(A), RechRdx-I(15), KBDist-I(21), KBDist-I(23), EndRdx-I(23), RechRdx-I(29)
Level 14: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A)
Level 16: Freezing Rain -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(17), RechRdx-I(25), EndRdx-I(25)
Level 18: Super Speed -- Run-I(A), EndRdx-I(31), Run-I(31), EndRdx-I(31)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(33), EndMod-I(33), P'Shift-End%(33)
Level 22: Hurricane -- KBDist-I(A), EndRdx-I(29), KBDist-I(34), KBDist-I(34), EndRdx-I(34), EndRdx-I(36)
Level 24: Whirlwind -- KBDist-I(A), EndRdx-I(27), KBDist-I(36), KBDist-I(37), EndRdx-I(37), EndRdx-I(37)
Level 26: Wormhole -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(39), RechRdx-I(39), KBDist-I(40), KBDist-I(40), KBDist-I(40)
Level 28: Air Superiority -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 30: Thunder Clap -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 32: Singularity -- KBDist-I(A), KBDist-I(43), KBDist-I(45), EndRdx-I(45), EndRdx-I(45), RechRdx-I(46)
Level 35: Tornado -- KBDist-I(A), KBDist-I(36), KBDist-I(39), RechRdx-I(42), RechRdx-I(42), EndRdx-I(46)
Level 38: Lightning Storm -- KBDist-I(A), KBDist-I(42), KBDist-I(43), RechRdx-I(43), RechRdx-I(46), EndRdx-I(50)
Level 41: Mental Blast -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 44: Mind Over Body -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 47: Psionic Tornado -- KBDist-I(A), KBDist-I(48), KBDist-I(48), EndRdx-I(48), RechRdx-I(50), EndRdx-I(50)
Level 49: Dimension Shift -- Intan-I(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment
-Recruited under Arachnos' "Equal-Opportunity Villainy" plan-