Mezz Protection for All!

What primaries have you taken? And what difficulty settings? Because if you really struggle that bad against bows, your doing something wrong.
<--- this guy is perfectly capable of taking bows to the cleaners and back (Bots/Traps) and this was before 50. Nowadays he just steamrollers absoblutley loomin everything. Wether it wants to be or not

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

A lot of people overestimate how much damage pets do. They also underestimate how much MM performance degrades when the MM is no longer providing support.

I can handle it, and usually get through. But it's annoying, and not fun. Especially when the mez lingers five, ten seconds.

Oh, she usually survives to run away and resummon when things go bad. She's still a MM, after all. But it's not exciting, thrilling, or "challenging". It's just tedious and annoying.
Yeah, my /Traps has no problems with anything. Because /Traps has a little bit of mez protection.

And this is just MMs. I didn't mention my Corruptor, who can take huge spawns of anything but Longbow. Longbow, because of their many mezzes, drastically changes the feel of the character. There's something wrong with individual enemy groups doing this. And my /Traps MM shows what the solution is: having at least the option to get a little bit of mez protection.

Warshades have pets to kill stuff while they're dead. I don't think that's WAI, honestly.

What AT's were you using? Doms should be lockign down spawns like trollers do, Corrupters should be disabling spawns like defenders do....I can think of several heavy mezzing situations that a team of defenders would absolutely destroy.

Actually, the squishies redside seem far far far more able to deal with mez than the squishies blueside, which seems appropriate because there's, in my experience, more dangerous enemies redside than blue, but that's true for the melee AT's as well. LB Nullifiers are bad for everyone, only a handful of melee AT's are able to ignore PPD's glue guns in the mid 30's, and CoT are a nightmare from 1 - 40, which is hilariously true bluesdie as well. In addition there are FAR more debuffing enemies redside as well. . .

And Redside, Corrupters do more damage than defenders, MM's are the most ridiculous overpowered class I know of, and the only thing that's keeping them afloat is that they're possibly the most boring to play (seriously, I solo'd an AV with an SO build and that was my FIRST build on an MM). Dominators do more damage 1 - 50 than controllers do, (at high levels controllers are an absolute force to be reckoned with, but most have to be at least 32 for that to be true) especially now after the change to the out of domination damage. Before that I might have agreed that doms are hard to deal with.

I have never in 2 1/2 years of playing, found 2 mezzers in a spawn to be absolutely crippling, and while teamed, I've never found a whole group of them to be crippling to entire groups. And this is after I zerged Tsoo with a team of 4 blasters at level 25(?) I don't consider myself a good squishy player. I don't consider myself good at making their builds. I'm probably best making builds for tanks scrappers, and controllers, with quality going in that order.

It boggles the mind how people could find any spawn in this game completely disabling to an entire group. Did you team wipe? That happens. Did the entire team wipe several times a mission? Sometimes that happens too. Bad teams happen. I'm not sure you can blame that on lack of mez protection.

-twitch-
We don't talk about the PPD Glue gun! Or Flashbangs!

I hate them. I really, really hate the glue guns. Locational AoE my skitt plate...
And CoT Ghosts! Asrghargarharg...was facing them on a team with my PB just now. God I hate them things. Good thing I picked up Dwarf Form the mission before. Trod all over them in the end.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Right. Mezzes affecting you just means you can't completely ignore the enemy and rush around heedlessly like you're used to. Dealing with mezz is a skill one can develop, and it's vastly easier using the new toggle rules.

Fire/Dark Corr, Thugs/Pain MM, and a Widow. We team wiped about six times before we changed difficulty from +2 to +0.

+2 is not an "extreme" challenge; it was available before the new difficulty settings were instituted, after all. It's a fairly standard way to play at higher levels. And like I said, no problems until it was Longbow.

LOL I'll trade you the vapid comments you got for the threatening PM's people sent me.

It was PPD Glue gun that got me interested in lolTA.

It could have been a problem beyond just the mezzing. A dark should be able to keep the group in fear most if not all the time, keep their acc mostly floored, as long as the widow takes the alpha...or the MM...and why the heck were you having mez problems with a pain MM on the team? Enforced Morale is a PITA to cast constantly but the widow didn't need it, only you did, so buywew? And yes, buywew is a highly technical term. It means excessive confusion.

In all seriousness though, I can't think of too many enemies that particular team set up should have problems with even if everyone is just using an SO build or a generic IO build. Maybe it's that Longbow can be really tough, but I would like to reiterate that Longbow can be really tough for melee AT's with mez protection. Those auto hit? -res grenades that nullifiers throw at 40+ can get just nasty.

My point here is that your lack of success against this particular enemy group sounds like a build problem with someone in the group, or a team tactics issue rather than excessive mezzing.

If I'm wrong someone should speak up, but that's my take on it.

Thats very impressive. Without being there you have managed to diagnose what went wrong and have it support your position despite all the evidence being contrary to that.

That's ,right Up there with the guy who in 2 years has never needed insps isn't aware that he is carrying them but tells people to use them to solve their problems even although he has no experience doing so.

Or the people on this thread that shout here about tools, then turn around and say use insps.

Just get past it the game has some tough spots they are there you get to live with them. If you don't want to deal with mez take a melee AT, or something with a Bubble. If you want some challenge but not more take a blaster. If you want something that has to work to deal with it and will suffer from it considerably more often take a controller defender and just be done.

Would It be nice to have a new class of IOs that provide mez protection for people that wanted it ? Sure but it would be mostly to laugh at people that wrecked their builds giving up things that were really useful to get something they didn't need at all.

Oh, and to the woman doing all the testing you are wasting your time honey. So I hope its fun for you.

Edit: Are to about

and a P.S. The market threads where someone gets up and proclaims how they have a lot of inf because they have basic values that no one else has and anyone who isnt happy about it are just leeching rabble have nothing on this thread. Thank you for the fine entertainment.

Why is extrapolating from the team size and powersets ridiculous when I have no other information to go by? I have my experience and I have what they're telling me and it doesn't sound right. And I'm not what I consider to be a really "good" player. I'm a great tank, I'm a great troller. I'm a terrible blaster, seriously, I'm on crack or something. And I die a lot. Very very few of my deaths are due to mez, but I do die a lot.

Why is asking "What happened to Enforced Morale?" Or why were they feared? Or why was the widow getting mezzed and dying? not valid? What else am I supposed to do? Say:

"Oh, your play experience that jibes in no way with mine has completely changed my mind!" And for the recrod I'm lumping my "testing" in there too. Because I didn't post much taht anyone could use.

So I'm not entirely sure what you're doing Fan, other than trying to poke someone with a pointy stick.

I think this is a kind of interesting argument, and it's generally been civil. If I offended you Eiko, please understand it wasn't purposeful. I don't think you need to l2p, I don't think you're a bad player. I don't even know you. I think you had trouble against a group that I've had trouble against, but on the same token, been on teams constructed similar to yours that has no problems. It's a catch 22 sometimes. And if BL_Angel hates me now, I'm sorry. I'm finding your points interesting. Otherwise...meh.

[Edited because my tone the first time was mean and unnecessary]

And all it takes to remove a mezzer from the equation is to mez him first. There are very few squishies who literally have *nothing* working for them while mezzed. Emps, Pain Doms (wait, click resistance, so maybe not)...maybe sonics? I don't know that set so well (oh wait, sonics have mez protection save for sleeps, but sleeps tend to be short, and easily broken). Dominators/Controllers have their pets, most debuffers having lingering debuffs, most defenders/Corrupters having lingering effects that can be of help to tide them through, especially when you're fighting 2 - 3 (or even 4) enemies while solo. Blasters can attack WHILE mezzed. MM's don't even do the bulk of their damage directly.

Futurias, please answer this....what is your definition of a usual solo difficulty setting? I'll tell you mine. +2 x2 no bosses (or bosses depending on the strength of the set). All of my characters, upon reaching level 30 should be able to solo that setting otherwise I won't be happy. Interestingly enough one of my favorite characters now couldn't solo that at level 30, but that's neither here nor there.

There is no evidence that Blue Morning was being self serving in his analysis. We all know what happens when you assume, here you can leave off the me part.

Panzerwaffen plays the game very well and you could certainly do worse than take any advice he was gracious enough to give you. While I disagree with him on this issue, its probably because he IOs out his toons very early while I don't even bother to enhance mine till they are in their teens.

I wouldn't do the testing if I wasn't happy doing it and found it enjoyable as a project on its own.

Why do you keep referring to FFG as a little bit of mez protection?
6.92 protection against holds and stuns is pretty significant in my opinion. Sure, it's not much compared to my Crab's ability to laugh at Rommy's autohit stun, but it's far from what i'd consider little. That's enough to shrug off two stacked holds easily, which means it takes 3 stacked holds to get you, instead of the 4 it takes to hold a Scrapper. Not a huge difference. And it grants that protection to every ally inside the radius.

It may be a matter of playstyle, but i'm seeing some odd disconnects between my experiences with teaming and soloing on squishies both with and without mez protection and some of the accounts in this thread. The only significant factors in my soloing of squishies at all level ranges are buff/debuff, control and damage output. Damage output is the only one that really affects my enjoyment of soloing, since i find soloing slowly rather tedious. Mez protection is generally irrelevant except when selecting tactics.

i'm not an uber i-laugh-at-the-RWZ-challenge player either.

While i wouldn't object if an equivalent to Indomitable Will was added to all the squishy AT PPP/APP sets, i also don't think it's necessary. However, in my opinion adding higher magnitude mez protection as an inherent to squishies would result in more mezzes being added to enemy factions by the Devs as a balancing move. The net effect would basically be a nerf to all non-squishy AT's.

Which is both hilarious and terrible. I'd +rep you again if I could, and I'm seriously thinking about moving my plant/rad to your server and finding you for a Posi run. I actually got a -rep for "cares about rep." Irony, meet hilarity.

MM didn't have Enforced Morale in his build, and at +2, Fearsome Gaze misses on enough foes to make the difference - obviously Darkest Night fails as soon as the Corruptor gets mezzed. The Widow died not from mezzes, but from trying to take on all the foes without the Corruptor and MM. The lack of one power should not make that much of a difference. And it's rather vital to this conversation to note that the power in question was mez protection.

My previously mentioned Thugs/Dark is a Tankermind built largely on resistance (nearly res capped to S/L/Neg) who has no problems whatsoever with Longbow so long as no mezzes hit (and she goes into melee; the build has Air Superiority and Boxing as its primary attack fillers between Provokes). So while I haven't played a Brute or Stalker to that level, I really can't see -res making that much of a difference on anything but maybe Electric Armour - everything else has at least a little bit of defence to back up the resistance.

And, of course, the /Traps MM has no problems. This is an issue of mezzes, not a particular enemy group or the tricks it happens to have.

Because in the scenario I propose, where the solution is a few more unique IOs, people would have the choice of slotting IOs that grant mag 4 mez protection, just like the Steadfast Protection or Blessing of the Zephyr KB protections. FFG isn't much more than that.

Ah, build problems and team tactics, as diagnosed above. The Mastermind could take his/her castable mezz protection if it was important enough. If it's not worth taking, why should the game be changed to give it to you? The Corruptor could hit +2s with enough slotting if the Corruptor wants to fight +2s regularly. I admit I don't know anything about Widows, except that I hear they're the uberest things since claw-sliced bread.

Tactically, can't you lay tar patch and corner-pull with a MM pet, never exposing any player to mezz until the baddies are mired in a Tar Patch, getting hammered by Thugs? It's a little tricky, but it's supposed to be tricky to play against +2 Longbows.

One power can and should make a hell of a difference. I played an STF with a regen scrapper who didn't take Integration. He kept dying. We would call a regen scrapper who doesn't take Integration a noob and then flambe him on these boards. I'm not saying you personally would have, but I'm saying that the boards at large would have.

I have a Thugs/Pain myself at level 38, and I'm fairly impressed with the build. I *hate* Enforced Morale. I hate casting it. But I still occasionally do it because it's useful. I've fought and won against heavy mezzing groups on a team that didn't have any mez protection whatsoever, and you're right, it's a sight more difficult than doing it when you have it, but not insurmountable.

Can I ask what level your group was? I'm pretty sure I'm usually accuracy capped against enemies +2 once I'm over lvl 30 and considering how you're talking I can only assume that you're over level 30. And before you start saying "It's because you're IO'd out!" I'm not by level 30. I'm either using full SO's or generic IO's, and at level 30 there's not *that* much of a difference. So no, your playstyle doesn't jibe with mine.

Put it this way - a scrapper or a tanker without his or her mez protection is not useful in that capacity. You're playing a build where you can give the entire TEAM mez protection, except yourself (and you're playing a build where your pets can keep doing massive amounts of damage while you are mezzed), and complaining about mez?

If it weren't Enforced Morale it would be something else. If no power is crucial, then why have a powerset system at all. It's like playing a defender, not taking any offensive attacks that do significant damage and complaining that you're a low damage weenie. Why? You *had* the tool. You *had* it, or at least could have had it. If it's not mez protection is an AoE mez. Would you complain that the game is too hard if you never took any of the AoE mezzes on a controller/dominator and then said "I can't control or dominate anything!".

Every power has a use, however small or however large, and everyone has to make a decision on what they're giving up. For some powers, like say Blackhole, people don't feel they're giving up much, and with how group dymanics work in CoH maybe they're not. But every power you're giving up something. If I felt as you did that Mez could completely disable a team of 3 every time and it's impinging on my playstyle and I had a handy dandy power such as Enforced Morale just sitting there in my powerset, and I *didn't* take it? Why? Why would you then complain that you're struggling too much to manage when you didn't take one of the tools to manage that struggle?

And for the record, I don't feel that way about mez. I don't feel like an entire group that mezzes could or should completely destroy a team of any type.

I am not telling you to learn how to play. I'm telling you the same thing I would tell to a repairman who doesn't have a screwdriver in his toolbox that complains that he can't tighten that last screw enough. Why didn't you bring the damn screwdriver if you knew you would need to deal with screws?

Even then, you're right, Enforced Morale shouldnt have made a great deal of difference. Over level 30 everyone should have a decent amount of accuracy, and if they're not slotted for it, they're not optimally slotted for it. Why should you then expect to team at +2 when you're not adequately prepared to fight these enemies either from toolbox perspective or a slotting perspective. Also the team shoudl have had at least some defense between the widow and darkest night, but whatever.

There's a lot of layers against the mez that either didn't exist or outright failed on this team. Several times. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about and my personal play experience is lying to me or I don't team with elite players who can solo AV's. That would be extreme luck.

I have team wiped against Longbow. It happens. But actually this is a really good option to show where squishies can really shine and scrappers really can't. When I looked over at the regen scrapper on the STF I was running and saw he spent almost all his time mezzed, I asked, "Why don't you have Integration?" But at the end of the day the single power he took only affected him, and thank God it wasn't an Mo. You're a squishy. You have the power to give mez protection to the entire team, or to not. That's the difference.

By making sure that someone else could help them when they eventually do get mezzed.