Mezz Protection for All!

So I'm not supposed to use my largest melee AOE attack because I have to hover-kite everything?

The developers were well and truly inconsistent with Peacebringers. They gave them a lot of great melee powers, decent shields and almost usable mezz protection in human form.

IMO, all 'human-form' kheldians need to play perfectly fine is a +2 mag protection to holds and stuns in a couple of their toggles.

On a normal team with one or two controllers, they would be at that functional level for 'melee centric' characters of about at least 4 mag. But would not be able to grab the aggro of two bosses that mezz well.

They actually be very 'scrapper-ish' which if you look at most of the powers (attacks and such) actually looks right.

Their ranged damage is still very, very sub-par compared to anyone that does range (even defenders).

I can't speak for PB's that well, but you started out talking about Heroic missions you couldn't beat without a tray of breakfrees. Has this changed?

Was this on a blaster before the defiance change? If so, it's no longer valid. Also, I've run against several gunslinger lieutenants in the past 3 days and have had no problem with any of them on my blasters, because *most* blasters have offensive mezzes of the single target variety, especially after level 41. If you don't as a fire/fire blaster, you should be ablet o have enough damage to put him down before he does significant amounts of damage.

Most of what I just said is true of defenders too. Most sets have offensive tools to deal with mezzers, both int he primary and secondary. I seriously question your ability if you have trouble against a single downgraded mezzer, even on a fire/fire blaster with no offensive mitigation other than kicking ***.

You're absolutely right. Defiance is all the status protection a blaster needs solo on basic difficulty. I ran repeated AE arcs against downgraded Malta Gunslingers using my Fire/EM blaster, and used no tactics whatsoever, and never even came close to being defeated. I charged up to every group and just spammed attacks. It required zero thought. Just Blaze, Flares, Fire Blast, repeat.

Thank You I just got done doing some checking on that map and why results might be so different.

I considered the following possibilities

1. The tactics you were using were much better suited than the ones I was using.

2. I might be executing my tactics badly.

3. Something else that I wasn't noticing because I wasn't looking for it

When I logged on to test I decided to detail out the spawns and the spawn composition.

What I found is this time around on +0x4 I got a bunch of spawns that consisted of 2x LTs and nothing else

When I was running the map prior to this there were no spawns that small all the spawns were in the 5-6 maybe with some 4s but I want counting the first time through.

Today there was one map without any of the spawns of 2 lts unfortunately it was the first point where I dropped and I hadn't thought to start counting the spawns till after


I did some counts on maps with spawns of 2 lts to see if the method needed to be changes

Run 1
17 spawns of 5
14 spawns of 6
7 spawns of 2

Run 2

16 Spawns of 5
18 Spawns of 2
10 spawns of 6

Run 3
22 spawns of 5
12 spawns of 6
13 spawns of 2


Spawn of 5 typically 3 Swiper minions 1 Smasher LT 1 Smasher LT
Spawn of 6 typically 1 Swiper LT 1 Smasher LT 2 Smasher Minions 1 Juicer Minion 1 Smasher minion
Spawn of 2 uniformly 2 smasher LTs no variance observed


So for this one it looks like its time to look for a map with more consistent spawns.

Is this what you consider a solo test for a character in CoH? Because it is certainly not what i might, at least not on a consistent character by character basis.

I am not sure I properly understand what you are asking.

The point was to take toons of the various archetypes and run them through the same four maps at increasing levels of difficulty and see where they break down.

The maps I chose for this were Cimerora the wall, Unai Freaks (The sunken city one), Save warrior clan village, Levantera rescue the longbow soldiers.

I also wanted use more than one of each type of build for the AT for the blaster I had a high recharge build and a High defense type of build. The idea is that these maps break down into mezzing and non mezzing the different builds would have different ways of dealing with mez. By seeing how they perform it should be possible to tease out just how much effect mez is having on them.


After the tests were done I would be able to say, This is what the effect of having mez protection means for this AT using these tactics. The choice of freaks and rikti divides it up nicely between ranged and non ranged mez effects.

I really wanted a more objective answer than "Wahhh I am always dieing this needs to be fixed" or the counters "Lrn2play noob" and "I have been playing forever and never had a problem". I really don't care for seeing any of the above they have no place in any sensible discussion anywhere.

I would agree. What I'm trying to figure out is at what point do you say "Ahhh, screw it, I can solo at X difficulty" and call it good on a squishy. Maybe you're not at that point yet, but that's essentially why a lot of people in this thread find it a waste of time.

The reason I'm asking this isn't because I like starting fights. The reason I'm asking is because I find an upper bounds test on any AT that's probably IO'd out (no matter what) is probably not helpful to this discussion, unless you also define what all AT's shoudl be able to handle and what should be a really really hard test for AT's. The devs didn't think people would want to necessarily be able to solo at +5 non trivially for instance. I don't think you're interested in that, but finding out where you do think the cap where challenge should become non-trivial would help.

For instance, do you feel that an AT that's designed for team play should solo just as easily as one not designed for team play or team support?

What would be much much more helpful is some kind of actual demonstration that at what you deem as a trivial level of challenge AT's without passive mez protection suffer above and beyond what should be considered a trivial problem. Otherwise your test just demonstrates what you're capable of with your IO'd build on a map that you cherry picked against enemies that you've chosen. Which isn't helpful to the discussion of "Do Squishies need Mez protection to function in a solo situation that is supposed to be a trivial challenge for all AT's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Futurias So I'm not supposed to use my largest melee AOE attack because I have to hover-kite everything?

You're supposed to play the game using your brains and instincts. Not everything should be attacked by rushing in and grabbing all the aggro with Dawn Strike and/or Solar Flare, are you deliberately trying to get yourself killed?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Futurias The developers were well and truly inconsistent with Peacebringers. They gave them a lot of great melee powers, decent shields and almost usable mezz protection in human form.

The idea behind Kheldians isn't about a consistent AT, but rather a shapeshifter AT, that is Jack of All Trades, Master of None but oft better than a Master of One. The idea behind this is that you're supposed to utilize your powers in ways that will effectively defeat your enemies while keeping you safe. I dare say that a Human-only Kheldian is the middle line on that safety/prowess curve which means its playstyle requires a more cautious execution than a TriForm or a Dwarf-centric playstyle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Futurias IMO, all 'human-form' kheldians need to play perfectly fine is a +2 mag protection to holds and stuns in a couple of their toggles. On a normal team with one or two controllers, they would be at that functional level for 'melee centric' characters of about at least 4 mag. But would not be able to grab the aggro of two bosses that mezz well. They actually be very 'scrapper-ish' which if you look at most of the powers (attacks and such) actually looks right. Their ranged damage is still very, very sub-par compared to anyone that does range (even defenders).

Sure, they appear to be Scrapperish and can be effectively played as such in some circumstances. However, if you choose to ignore powers like Pulsar, and never use Solar Flare to knock enemies away from you, and always focus on your two melee attacks and Dawn Star, expect to gain more aggro than you're equipped to handle.

From your posts it seems to me that you insist on engaging enemies in melee range while utilizing only a 1/3rd of what your AT offers, and expect results that only Scrappers/Tankers should get while utilizing the full capabilities of their AT/power-set combination.

I never saw any promise or explanation from the Devs claiming a Human-only PB can or should be played like a Scrapper. Instead, I see power-synergies and attack patterns that involve executing ranged and melee powers together. If you choose to ignore this and are having problems, maybe you should re-consider your strategies before assuming something wrong with PB's?

In any case, since both Kheldians have ways of obtaining mez-protection that are unavailable to other "squishies", I vote to remove Kheldians from the "mez protection for all" discussion. Not taking Dwarf form at Lv20 because you want to be Human-only should not be a reason to add mez protection to a Kheldian's human-form, but that's a totally different discussion for a totally different thread.

I think you are missing a bit of the ideas behind the testing procedure. The goal with each at is to have builds that have little to no overlap in how they deal with mez effects. In the case of the blaster its high recharge vs high defense. The point of "cherry picking" the maps is once again to isolate the factors affecting performance and to have as little overlap as possible.

Saying 'take dwarf for mezz protection' ignores the fact that Kheldians have a non-dwarf mezz protection.

It doesn't work correctly and it's sub-performing right now, but the team-link bonus is definitely there.

Unfortunately, the developers seem to have fallen into that concept trap without either removing the old version or replacing it too.

There's been a post by Castle or some other redname detailing that in testing, when they gave mez protection to kheldians, there was no longer any reason to take the dwarf form. They were very cautious to add the mez protection into the inherent, and because of that, you only get 1 mag protection for every controller.

I can't find that post, but I can swear that I've seen it. (For what good that's worth)

I have to ask for more on this testing too.

First, the devs have vastly more data you will ever have. The proof is their changes to ATs like blasters, stalker, doms, and khelds. They mentioned before about those ATs not performing as expected. What are you adding that the devs don't know already?

Second, this game is too diverse with secondary effects and combinations. These combinations and secondary effects change how a players mitigates danger in its various forms like mezzers. For examples:
-An energy blaster can KB mobs where an ice blaster can hold them (and enhance that hold for even longer where the +KB just moves them further way, which is meaningless if there is a wall behind the mob).
-I consider my ice/cold corr my most powerful corr (fire/rad, son/kin, dark/therm) because she has 3 holds and locks mezzers down. IMO, my other corr's just don't have as high a mitigation levels as my ice/cold but they can mitigate danger (KB, sleep, debuffing, immobilize). How does that work in the equation?
-Lastly, my MM's even are vastly different. My bots/storm MM knocks around mobs with ease and clears maps at +4/+8 whereas my thugs/PD has to be a little more careful since she has to *actively* use her powers like the heals, buff, and debuff. Where would a Necro/dark MM (like my friend's) fit in?

All I see on this testing is you are going to find a tiny subset of examples that don't apply to the rest of the game because you can say AT of A/B powerset can't do this but AT of powerset C/D can, but they are the same AT. Further, across ATs don't even work. I am leveling up a cold/ice defender and she is playing vastly different from my ice/cold corr. Same powers right?

Edit:

Getting a chance to read some more, I had a couple of comments with this testing. First, awesome next post Blue Morning, especially regarding solo vs. teaming. The only point I wanted to add was synergy in sets.
For example, I have a 50 kin/arch def and 50 dark/therm corr. Solo, they had issues. In my experience, arch just doesn't synergized with kin. Add on the redraw effects, and it was a "clunky" AT to play. For my corruptor, dark does not have the damage output to make up for the powers in therm. On teams however, they were wanted and exceled with what they do. The team made up for the problems I had solo. Now, let's look at 2 other 50's I have - D3 def and son/kin corr. I think those powerset combo's are well known for what they can do, solo or teamed. But they share kin with my def and dark with my corruptor. The difference was their synergy. Dark with dark works really great. Son with its debuff and kin with its buff let me do so much. Even a direct comparison for the 2 corruptors is the GW patron arc which they did. My dark/therm required teaming (or Shivans) to help take down the EB's (down from AVs) whereas my son/kin corr solo'd her arc, defeating the same EB's (I can't solo AV's with her yet.).

I agree on the maps, I agree on the mobs, but I think that your initial goal is a bad one. Not all AT's are going to be equal in dealing with mez effects, and nor should they be. On the same token, not all powersets within the AT are going to deal with all status and debuffing effects well. There's a good reason why, once I leveled my kat/dark for the first time (it was my first 50!) I found that while everyone was complaining and screaming bloody murder about carnies I completely destroyed them...didn't even have a hard time about it. It wasn't until later that I started having an issue when I took a fire/SS tank in and tanked for a group of 8 that I understood why they were a nightmare for so many AT's.

A fire scrapper and a dark scrapper are both going to deal with carnies very differently and one of them is going to have a much much harder time of it. Should we normalize that because the fire scrapper can't deal with psi or endurance debuffs well? Should I normalize the performance gap there? Or should a dark scrapper also perform as well as an invuln scrapper does against Cimerorans?

My point is we don't *want* everything normalized. In a team MMO that isn't a FPS and you have an AT system you have to be able to figure out how they'll interact on a team. I like the idea that there should be a normalized level of difficulty that each AT and powerset has to reach while solo, but this is *not* a solo game.

So in a game that's not solo, why should everyone have no difference in how they deal with mez effects - or at least have alittle to no overlap in what they can deal with in terms of mezzing?

I have less of a problem with your testing procedure - it is certainly better than mine mostly because I didn't want to spend all of my time this weekend testing - but I have a serious problem with what you're apparently looking for. What you're going to find is that blasters and defenders have the most problems scaling to mob size (enter x numbers of blasters and defenders saying "well I FARM maps set for 8! You just can't play! They'd be right) while controllers, scrappers and tankers obviously do. That's because as an AT all of them have more defensive abilities than you need to have while solo. As a whole defenders kind of do, but debuffing and buffing scales better to mob size when on a team....it doesn't help as much solo as straight armor or mass mezz effects do.

Please keep testing, but when you find that blasters and defenders don't scale as well to big mobs with mez, I'm going to say "That's not necessarily a reason to add mez protection to let them".

There are other reasons to team?

Of course! To help other people level up.

That is pretty much what was said, and what was discussed on the Kheld forums about it. If you make Human form too strong, than the other forms start getting pointless. It's tricky for the devs to balance the three forms, and I certainly think giving human form even a bit of mez protection would make Dwarf less desirable.

Heck, as it is, Human form has a lot of tools to make it without mez protection: giving it to them would make them even more effective than they already are.

I agree, I'm still new to my warshade, but it seems all to easy to gravity well the one enemy mezzer or even gravatic emanation stun the whole group.

I tend to only use dwarf when I'm in a large team that has a sudden need of an off tank because we aggro'd an extra group or two. Or when I feel like pulling off a double mire AoE.

While they get to see you being awesome, yes?

*raises hand* ... yes... yes I've done that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Futurias Saying 'take dwarf for mezz protection' ignores the fact that Kheldians have a non-dwarf mezz protection. It doesn't work correctly and it's sub-performing right now, but the team-link bonus is definitely there. Unfortunately, the developers seem to have fallen into that concept trap without either removing the old version or replacing it too.

If I ever said that the Kheldian inherent mez protection was malfunctioning, or inadequate, I've said it because to me it seems ironic to provide my Kheldians with +1 Mag of mez protection for every Controller in my team, when most Controllers I've teamed with would already lock down the mezzers before I could get hit by any mezzes! As an Ice/Rad Controller, I've been in melee locking things down (yes, heavy Malta and Rikti, and CoT) with a combination of ArcticAir/ChokingCloud/IceSlick and Glacier, and perhaps that's an extremely potent combination to have all in one Controller, but having played several other CC power-sets (both as a Dominator and as a Controller) I know how potent together.

If I'd ever change anything about mez-protection in the inherent, it'd be to attach it to an AT other than Controllers, but that's about it.