Mezz Protection for All!
By
AlienOne,
Posted on: 2009-09-17 24:18 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
I was the Corruptor, not the MM. But the issue is moot; what if the MM had been another /Dark? Or a /TA? None of those have mez protection. We'd have had the same problems. |
Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
You're a squishy. You have the power to give mez protection to the entire team, or to not. That's the difference.
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On a team of three, there were usually three nullifiers per spawn. Even assuming Fearsome Gaze hit everyone it was aimed at, that nearly always left one Nullifier free, simply due to the spread of the group and the cone of the Gaze. One is all it takes to drop Darkest Night, and of course as soon as the firing starts, the other "mezzed" nullifiers get to kick in too, because Terrify isn't a real mez. With Thugs and Fire as primaries, that means AoE damage, which means those nullifiers are getting hit, and thus fighting back - which is why the Corruptor has problems with Longbow even solo.
But it comes back to this: with mez protection, people work well. Without it, they work poorly. Several of the melee builds complained about KB messing up their game with several sets having KB holes, so -KB IOs were added to allow them a chance to plug that hole. Why shouldn't non-melees have the same chance to plug their status holes?
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You're misunderstanding my point. If the other MM had been a dark Mez still isn't a problem for MM's. Not at all. They get mezzed, their pets keep on trucking. So mez was a problem for one whole person on your team.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
I was the Corruptor, not the MM. But the issue is moot; what if the MM had been another /Dark? Or a /TA? None of those have mez protection. We'd have had the same problems.
On a team of three, there were usually three nullifiers per spawn. Even assuming Fearsome Gaze hit everyone it was aimed at, that nearly always left one Nullifier free, simply due to the spread of the group and the cone of the Gaze. One is all it takes to drop Darkest Night, and of course as soon as the firing starts, the other "mezzed" nullifiers get to kick in too, because Terrify isn't a real mez. With Thugs and Fire as primaries, that means AoE damage, which means those nullifiers are getting hit, and thus fighting back - which is why the Corruptor has problems with Longbow even solo. But it comes back to this: with mez protection, people work well. Without it, they work poorly. Several of the melee builds complained about KB messing up their game with several sets having KB holes, so -KB IOs were added to allow them a chance to plug that hole. Why shouldn't non-melees have the same chance to plug their status holes? |
With stacked darks I would open with tar patch out of sight every time, send in pets or widow to take the alpha and then fireball/firebreath/Rain of Fire (any one of these in combination with any other one of these, or any other AoE from anohter person in the group) should go a long way to defeating the entire spawn in a fair bit of safety once the alpha is mitigated.
Actually, that strategy would persist even in your team set up and the MM wasn't casting Enforced Morale, if it were me. That's a tasty strategy and one that I've used several times myself.
There are a lot of options to get over what you didn't have on that team. If you don't mind me asking, what was your strategy exactly?
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I'm going to guess it was little less than "run and gun."
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Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
There are a lot of options to get over what you didn't have on that team. If you don't mind me asking, what was your strategy exactly?
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Quote:
Come on... they must've used Tar Patch... right?!
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I'm going to guess it was little less than "run and gun."
Didn't they? 
Hmm... 
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Maybe you can all wait for replies before assuming?
Strategy was pretty much the same as solo: Open with Fearsome Gaze to lock down as many as possible. Darkest Night on a Nullifier if it's not terrified, Tar Patch, Fireball/Fire Breath/Rain of Fire. But the Nullifier usually opens with its stun, and if it hits (and looking at my combat log, I'm pretty sure Longbow has an inherent +tohit, which makes Dark less effective than you hero players would assume) that drops Darkest Night and brings the whole chain to a screeching halt. Team wipes typically ensue.
This Corruptor regularly runs x4 solo, and Longbow (with its multiple and long-lasting mezzes) is the only group she ever has problems with. It's the mezzes, not the strategy.
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Also, why couldn't you open half the time with Howling Twilight, which does a pretty good AoE stun, and the other half hte time have the MM open with Gang War/Pets? (recharges maybe?) and then also sometimes open with Tar Patch (and Rain of Fire if you've got it) from around a corner?|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
I was the Corruptor, not the MM. But the issue is moot; what if the MM had been another /Dark? Or a /TA? None of those have mez protection. We'd have had the same problems.
On a team of three, there were usually three nullifiers per spawn. Even assuming Fearsome Gaze hit everyone it was aimed at, that nearly always left one Nullifier free, simply due to the spread of the group and the cone of the Gaze. One is all it takes to drop Darkest Night, and of course as soon as the firing starts, the other "mezzed" nullifiers get to kick in too, because Terrify isn't a real mez. With Thugs and Fire as primaries, that means AoE damage, which means those nullifiers are getting hit, and thus fighting back - which is why the Corruptor has problems with Longbow even solo. But it comes back to this: with mez protection, people work well. Without it, they work poorly. Several of the melee builds complained about KB messing up their game with several sets having KB holes, so -KB IOs were added to allow them a chance to plug that hole. Why shouldn't non-melees have the same chance to plug their status holes? |
Also just for the record, I know blueside better, but it's not like I never play redside. I've got several high level AT's redside, all of them except the stalker "Squishy" (if you can call an MM squishy....) (a couple of corrupters, 3 MM's)
"Be a beacon?"
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Because Shadowfall isn't true stealth, and Howling Twilight is PBAOE. I'd have to eat alpha to open with it.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
Also, why couldn't you open half the time with Howling Twilight, which does a pretty good AoE stun, and the other half hte time have the MM open with Gang War/Pets? (recharges maybe?) and then also sometimes open with Tar Patch (and Rain of Fire if you've got it) from around a corner?
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Well no, here on the team in question, it's the strategy. Once you saw that the strategy didn't work, why didn't you try a different one. Different strategies for different groups, otherwise, why have different enemy types? Solo....I can't speak to solo. I can *try* running my rad defender solo on x4 to see what you mean, but that rad defender isnt' built for solo anyway, so I can't say she's going to be effective.
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Maybe you can all wait for replies before assuming?
Strategy was pretty much the same as solo: Open with Fearsome Gaze to lock down as many as possible. Darkest Night on a Nullifier if it's not terrified, Tar Patch, Fireball/Fire Breath/Rain of Fire. But the Nullifier usually opens with its stun, and if it hits (and looking at my combat log, I'm pretty sure Longbow has an inherent +tohit, which makes Dark less effective than you hero players would assume) that drops Darkest Night and brings the whole chain to a screeching halt. Team wipes typically ensue. This Corruptor regularly runs x4 solo, and Longbow (with its multiple and long-lasting mezzes) is the only group she ever has problems with. It's the mezzes, not the strategy. |
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
Quote:
Howling Twilight is a Ranged AoE like fireball without the fire. Or actually, the ball. And Shadowfall is true stealth, it just isn't max stealth like, say, a stalker, or Superior Invisibility.
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Because Shadowfall isn't true stealth, and Howling Twilight is PBAOE. I'd have to eat alpha to open with it.
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"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
Quote:
First, I haven't set foot blueside since i4, with the exception of my recent warshade. I know villain content.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Maybe you can all wait for replies before assuming?
Strategy was pretty much the same as solo: Open with Fearsome Gaze to lock down as many as possible. Darkest Night on a Nullifier if it's not terrified, Tar Patch, Fireball/Fire Breath/Rain of Fire. But the Nullifier usually opens with its stun, and if it hits (and looking at my combat log, I'm pretty sure Longbow has an inherent +tohit, which makes Dark less effective than you hero players would assume) that drops Darkest Night and brings the whole chain to a screeching halt. Team wipes typically ensue. This Corruptor regularly runs x4 solo, and Longbow (with its multiple and long-lasting mezzes) is the only group she ever has problems with. It's the mezzes, not the strategy. |
Second, you had an MM with you that has enforce morale. No, forget enforce morale, you had an MM. He should be alpha soak every damn time. Stun or no, he's got 50% resist with only two pets in bodyguard mode. It goes up from there. Let him eat all the mez, his pets will fire back.
My diagnosis: Operator error.
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Quote:
Proof that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
[SNIP] Howling Twilight is PBAOE. I'd have to eat alpha to open with it.
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Unless they've changed it fro the last time I used my Dark/Dark, the stun portion of howling Twilight is not PBAoE, just the Rez portion. the Stun is ranged AoE. I could be wrong. Its been a while since I played my Dark/Dark. But I recall stunning a group at range to rez my team on occasion.
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Because Shadowfall isn't true stealth, and Howling Twilight is PBAOE. I'd have to eat alpha to open with it.
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There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
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Uh, no, it's only proof I don't know Howling Twilight as well as I might. I don't use it much, and mostly as a rez or -regen on EBs/AVs. The recharge makes it less useful to me than you'd suggest.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Proof that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
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Ok, my bad. You just don't happen to know anything about one of the best dark miasma powers. Autohit stun and all that. One of the most talked about benefits of having a dark on the team.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Uh, no, it's only proof I don't know Howling Twilight as well as I might. I don't use it much, and mostly as a rez or -regen on EBs/AVs. The recharge makes it less useful to me than you'd suggest.
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Wait, you use it on EVs/AVs? Do you always get in their face to hit them with it? How the hell didn't you know it worked from range?!
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
Isn't it up every 3 minutes which means it's up every 1.5 minutes if you enhance it fully, which would make it an up every other fight power right?
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Uh, no, it's only proof I don't know Howling Twilight as well as I might. I don't use it much, and mostly as a rez or -regen on EBs/AVs. The recharge makes it less useful to me than you'd suggest.
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"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
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All I know about Tar Patch is that it would usually cause almost any enemy-AI to attempt to get out of the patch first and then fight me. So I've gotten used to opening with Tar Patch, Howling Twilight and also spamming the Dark Miasma heal even when I don't need to actually heal anyone, so that the -ToHit affects my enemies. All of this made my Merc/Dark, Thugs/Dark and Bots/Dark feel almost god-like against +2 enemies, so much so that I stopped playing them.
A duo of a Corrupter/Dominator with Dark Miasma and Ice Control could use Tar Patch and Ice Slick to essentially mitigate a lot of damage, allowing them to focus on taking out the opposition with impunity. So I do suggest contemplating the fact that since you're playing on a squishy character, and squishies should band together, maybe before crying for mez protection, one should attempt to find a group synergy that works better if the current synergy is lacking?
Besides, what's the point of playing a squishy character if it is not squishy?! and believe me, when you've got a squishy that can resist being mezzed, heal, buff, debuff, and attack... that squishy isn't very squishy.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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I was tempted to get smart-alecky and say "Well, how useful is Howling Twilight when your team is getting wiped?" to insinuate that you should at least have tried it as an opener rather than saving it.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Uh, no, it's only proof I don't know Howling Twilight as well as I might. I don't use it much, and mostly as a rez or -regen on EBs/AVs. The recharge makes it less useful to me than you'd suggest.
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But then I realized that Howling Twilight is really freaking useful when your team is being wiped,even if you use it afterward. So I can't fault you for holding it in reserve. Howling Twilight is the New Shimmer of superpowers!
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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Never thought about it. Figured the stun and -regen were attached to the rez, which I knew was PBAOE.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Wait, you use it on EVs/AVs? Do you always get in their face to hit them with it? How the hell didn't you know it worked from range?!
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Never thought about it. Figured the stun and -regen were attached to the rez, which I knew was PBAOE.
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The power says "Ranged (AoE)" on it.
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
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1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
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I actually still remember the first time I used Howling Twilight solo and witnessed a full enemy group (of minions, of course) walk around disoriented. I was thinking to myself that it's probably a bug... but subsequent use of the power can get very addictive so I admire people who can hold on to it and not use it for alpha-soaking.
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Never thought about it. Figured the stun and -regen were attached to the rez, which I knew was PBAOE.
But seriously, with all the tools available to Dark Miasma does one truly need mez protection? And before anyone answers that, try to be honest and remember that squishies are meant to be squishy. 
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Quote:
You fight slow. 1.5 minute recharge would be every third or fourth fight (barring mezzes and defeats, of course).|
Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
Isn't it up every 3 minutes which means it's up every 1.5 minutes if you enhance it fully, which would make it an up every other fight power right?
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Mag 2 isn't enough to stun a Lt anyway, is it? Which still leaves Nullifiers running around shooting beanbags.
Off-topic, but out of curiousity:
You can use Howling Twightlight for the stun component without using it to rez..?
Thats...purdy damn neat, actually, if true.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Wait wait wait wait. I fight slow, and you're saying it's a difficult enemy group and you're expecting to zerg it putting down 3 spawns in less than a minute? It's possible. But then if you're putting down that many spawns in a little bit of time do you need mez protection?|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
You fight slow. 1.5 minute recharge would be every third or fourth fight.
Mag 2 isn't enough to stun a Lt anyway, is it? Which still leaves Nullifiers running around shooting beanbags. |
You can't have it both ways. You can't say "you know this enemy group is really hard because of mez", and then say "all of my fights are 30 seconds, tops!"
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
Quote:
It's always been true.
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
You can use Howling Twighlight for the stun component without using it to rez..?
Thats...purdy damn neat, actually, if true.
EDIT :: To demonstrate how powerful Dark Miasma is, I would like to suggest that the reason DM has not been proliferated for Controllers is that they'd simply be too powerful with a Control power-set on top of all the tools in Dark Miasma.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but until fairly recently were the -res grenades LB threw irresistable and auto hit (I don't know, I'm asking)? Maybe that's what I'm remembering. Now that they're not though, everyone with hybridized defenses such as WP or even to a lesser extent Invuln is going to get murdered by stacking -40% resistance grenades because they simply don't have enough resistance to deal with it well. Electric Armor/Granite brutes should be able to deal with high -resist effects because they are by definition resisting it by their resistance. At least that's how I understand it.
Without that fairly low, but necessary resists Willpower's regen won't be able to keep up with incoming damage, Invuln will take massive hits that do get through, especially from all the fire that LB likes to throw at you, and Fire Armor will...well...yeah.
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA