Notes on new team difficulty settings
By
Abigail Frost,
Posted on: 2009-08-26 15:02 in The Market and Inventions
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Wait, what?
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Originally Posted by ElectricaBanana
got ONE recipe drop, although it was a LotG +7.5% Global Recharge.
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Cyan
LotG+7.5% isn't a random mob drop. If you got that off a random kill, then we'd have a much more interesting situation.
Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~
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Pool C recipes have a very small chance (probably smaller than purple drops) to drop off Boss-class (or higher, I believe) mobs in any mission. This was implemented a few months ago, but is so rare that few people have ever had it happen to them.
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Originally Posted by LostHalo
LotG+7.5% isn't a random mob drop. If you got that off a random kill, then we'd have a much more interesting situation.
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My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
I'm definitely interested in an answer to this, or finding out that someone's messing with us. Since the LotG +7.5 is in the former Pool C, I don't understand how it's possible to have this as a random drop for a kill, mission complete, or anything, with one possible exception, what pool (if any) do AVs drop from? I seem to recall seeing that they're set individually, but I don't know for sure. If this is the case, is it possible that the 7.5% is on a table for either Requiem or Romulus?
Thanks for the info EarthWyrm, I hadn't heard that, so this could explain it.
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Not as rare as purple I think. I dropped at least 5 of these "boss-pool C" recipes whereas I don't think I got 5 purples from bosses in the same amount of time. But most of the time it was Stupefy or Pacing of the Turtle (so you have to know Pool C recipes in order to see the you dropped one).|
Originally Posted by EarthWyrm
Pool C recipes have a very small chance (probably smaller than purple drops) to drop off Boss-class (or higher, I believe) mobs in any mission. This was implemented a few months ago, but is so rare that few people have ever had it happen to them.
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And they dropped from higher ranked enemies, a friend of mine dropped a Numina's Recovery/Regen when we killed Numina in LRSF's last mission... what a nice coincidence
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Ah, nice to know! It's rare for people to notice it as well, given the knowledge needed to tell apart pool A & C drops. |
Originally Posted by EarthWyrm
Pool C recipes have a very small chance (probably smaller than purple drops) to drop off Boss-class (or higher, I believe) mobs in any mission. This was implemented a few months ago, but is so rare that few people have ever had it happen to them.
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--
Cyan
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Maybe there is something wrong with your medulla oblingota. |
Originally Posted by Synapse
Thought I would chime in here and let you know what we've done to test this. The data has been checked, the code has been checked. There has been no change to either. That said, none of us would be satisfied until we tested this for ourselves. I knew this issue would haunt my dreams until I dedicated some time to testing. So, I went and did some pretty comprehensive testing today. Both internally and on the training room.
The results are pretty consistent and drop rates appear to be correct. The way I tested this is load up the first mission given out by Abyss (as a number of players mentioned this in their tests). I then set my difficulty to 8x and +0. I then went through this mission 5 times internally and 10 times on the training room and the results were very consistent: -14 to 19 recipes per mission -5 to 8 enhancements per mission -30 to 51 salvage per mission So, for the time being I am calling this a perception issue, that said I will keep an eye on this. If there is in fact a bug at work here then there will be reproducible steps one could take to get this bug to happen to anyone. If anyone does in fact nail down possible repro steps for this bug, please PM me or post them in the forums. I know this isn't the answer many of you were hoping to hear, but I will keep an eye on the issue. Again, please contact me via PM if you have any possible reproducible steps. Lastly, I want to clear up any rumors of a "stealth nerf" or drops being different per map. Drop rates are on a per class basis. All minions, lieutenants and bosses have the same drop rates as all other minions, lieutenants and bosses regardless of what map they're on. The only difference is what items they drop (magic salvage vs. tech salvage, different origin enhancements and such) Regards, Synapse |
Also stop using your dev hack tools
No data to provide, more than enough has been to warrant extensive further investigation and to convince you that your initial testing has not satisfied the issue.
All I can say is that since I16 I can count on one hand the number of recipes I earn per session just playing solo where I'd normally have to dump off a lot more. Pretty sure I'm moving my high level toons back to AE for tickets as something is better than nothing.
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While it is pretty rare, pool C drops I've noticed were: Numina++ (last mission of LGTF), Celerity stealth (don't remember where), LotG 7.5 (dropped from Rom on last mission of ITF)
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Originally Posted by EarthWyrm
Pool C recipes have a very small chance (probably smaller than purple drops) to drop off Boss-class (or higher, I believe) mobs in any mission. This was implemented a few months ago, but is so rare that few people have ever had it happen to them.
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I would doubt this. Lag only affects what your client sees. Dropped packets may prevent you from seeing that you have received something, but the server will still know it's in your inventory. When you zone out of the mission and your client has to refresh its data, you'll suddenly see it.|
Originally Posted by Defenestrator
I'm also beginning to see some data that suggests the "lag = borked drop rates" theory may have some credence, but I don't have nearly enough data on this yet.
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Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
So I was looking at this drop stats script that's been put together, and I noticed that the page says that it won't work very well for characters that aren't level 50 - it will fail the heuristic rank check.
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Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
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True. I've had one ever.
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Originally Posted by EarthWyrm
Pool C recipes have a very small chance (probably smaller than purple drops) to drop off Boss-class (or higher, I believe) mobs in any mission. This was implemented a few months ago, but is so rare that few people have ever had it happen to them.
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total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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I was using mentally skewed data, so you could be right. I've gotten two Pool C drops off bosses ever, and got a half-dozen purples dropping just during Beta for I16 (and one of the two Pool C's). |
Originally Posted by Beber
Not as rare as purple I think.
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But I've also defeated a metric TON (tonne?) more minions and lieutenants than I have bosses, so my internal data aren't going to be reliable. In fact, I can't think of any of my purples that came off a Boss+ critter. It seems unlikely that none of them did, but given my play style prior to I16, it's entirely possible.
I also misspoke; it's not just bosses in missions, it's bosses anywhere. One of my two dropped while beating stuff up out in the wild in the RWZ.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
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It is rather insulting to think that a mere 15 missions run on non-live servers substantiate a claim of a 'perception issue' on the small community of us that have defeated thousands of MOBs and made a very precise measurement of what the rewards of those defeats have been.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
No data to provide, more than enough has been to warrant extensive further investigation and to convince you that your initial testing has not satisfied the issue.
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I could understand if there were cries of low drop rates without any documentation or data to back up the cries. Unfortunately, this is far from the case demonstrated in this thread. We have been keeping track of how many defeats, what class they were, and what rewards were yielded based on our chat logs from the game. We even have an individual who has created a script to parse our data and stream it into a very understandable form.
I, for one, am not going to be so quickly dismissed and continue to run missions and extrapolate data. If it falls on deaf ears..well then I guess I will adapt and have a somewhat diminished view of the development team for this game.
Others might not be so generous and that is what worries me the most.
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I've not stopped playing and paying attention to what's going on, but right now I'm just trying to figure out if there is any pattern to be seen switching maps or characters. I'm coming up with a lot of nothing, in terms of new information, and sitting here at the end of every session running dropstats and doing hand calculations to demonstrate what I already know to be the case isn't going to change Synapse's mind. |
Originally Posted by AgentMountaineer
Others might not be so generous and that is what worries me the most.
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Data aren't what he's looking for, unless those data include reproducible steps to get low drop rates, and continuing to do the same thing I was doing had a 0% probability of meeting that goal. So I'm playing and observing and hoping for some pattern to emerge that can lead to solution. I'll try and switch up characters more often, at least once in a while, to run the same maps and see if I can get different results.
About the only organized thing I can think of that a large-scale effort might make worthwhile is having multiple people do 5-10 runs each of the exact map Synapse used, with the same settings, to see if (a) people get consistent drop rates within characters, (b) whether the consistent drop rates obtained differ across characters, and (c) what the characteristics are of characters that get good, average, and poor drop rates. But that would take a lot of people to be able to meaningfully isolate the problem, and then there's no guarantee that what we identified would generalize to other maps.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
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Agreed, his feedback was more that of a corrupt politican than a developer| I, for one, am not going to be so quickly dismissed and continue to run missions and extrapolate data. If it falls on deaf ears..well then I guess I will adapt and have a somewhat diminished view of the development team for this game. |
A community of people is saying there is an issue, providing reems and reems of feedback for a response of 'Uh, no, it's all in your head'
I sent tells to about 20-30 people last night in game, to see their responses on the issue, nearly all have noticed a significant drop in the number of recipes, whether set or non set
Synapse: THERE IS A PROBLEM and it is not going to be ignored.
Global: @NR
POHSYB: We've been in this meeting for six hours. Can I go back to my box?
BLUE STEEL: No.
Pohsyb sighs.
So, what now?
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
I'd like to also add my input into this discussion.
On the mission: Investigate Nemesis Base, in the RWZ on -1 level 8 man group with two people, upon all but clearing the instance we received in total 6 recipe drops, all common IOs.
Alone, on -1 level and 1 man group, almost clearing solo, I received 3 recipe drops.
Alone, on +0 level and 8 man group, almost clearing solo, I received 3 recipe drops.
Alone, on +1 level and 1 man group, almost clearing solo, I received 2 recipe drops.
Alone, on +1 level and 8 man group, almost clearing solo, I received 4 recipe drops.
almost clearing means clearing the outside of all mobs, but not entering the doorway with the glowing safe.
If there is code inserted to make a single person clearing an 8 man instance still only reward them for one, then we will have a serious problem. It seems that way at the moment.
I would gladly do the instance 20-30 more times for a consistency check, but I need a program to track these things instead of clearing inventory after every pass. I want to know the exact kill/drop ratio, and what rank of mob dropped what IO recipe. Is there a parser program for combat logs, or will I need to make one?
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I really didn't want things to head this direction, at least, not until we at least have a red name give us a "yeah, anti-farming code, deal with it" <which is the vibe I get in missions>|
Originally Posted by Joe_Blow
If there is code inserted to make a single person clearing an 8 man instance still only reward them for one, then we will have a serious problem. It seems that way at the moment.
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THEN we can have our community meltdown. <unwanted btw>
So...now, we wait maybe?
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
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Please read the thread.|
Originally Posted by Joe_Blow
If there is code inserted to make a single person clearing an 8 man instance still only reward them for one, then we will have a serious problem. It seems that way at the moment.
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The devs have told us they are not doing this. No such change is intended. Drop probabilities are not supposed to depend on difficulty settings. Note the emphasis on the word "probabilities." Synapse posted here that the drop chances are per mob. That means that if you defeat 10 mobs, you have 10 chances to roll for a drop. Therefore, fighting on a larger "virtual team" size therefore should not be penalized, because you get the same probability and more mobs.
Link here. Relevant quote:
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| Lastly, I want to clear up any rumors of a "stealth nerf" or drops being different per map. Drop rates are on a per class basis. All minions, lieutenants and bosses have the same drop rates as all other minions, lieutenants and bosses regardless of what map they're on. The only difference is what items they drop (magic salvage vs. tech salvage, different origin enhancements and such) |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
So, we wait!
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
Since we're in waiting mode, can we please put the tinfoil hats and conspiracy goggles away and stick to the facts until rednames do more investigating? There's no good thing to come from flying off on the handle and accusing the Devs of intentionally ruining your Christmas.
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.
Hmmm...so I changed from being in SG mode and noticed my rates are a lot lower...though i think this is an issue with DropStats (I know you're working on it, Archie)...not a bug in CoX.
Edit: now that I think about and after looking at my logs from the last two days, I only got 3 recipes tonight running 3 missions where last night I had 9 recipes and the night prior I had 13. So to suddenly only be getting three makes me think that either SG mode or scanner missions might have some effect on the rates.
I'm going to alternate the next few nights between being in and out of SG mode and see if that doesn't yield any differences. Anybody else is more than welcome to join me in seeing if this isn't the cause of the borked recipe drop rates. Salvage still seems to be raining from the sky.
Code:
Runs 09-23-2009
Level 50 Kat/WP Scrapper
+0/8/yes/no
Supergroup Mode: Disabled
Mission 1: Server: Freedom Zone/Mission: Caves_30_Layout_05_02
Targets: Circle of Thorns
Type DropRate Drops Expected Mobs
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Pool A 0.66% 1 2-10 152 minion equivalents
Salvage 8.50% 12 6-19 141 minion equivalents
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(Table excludes mobs of unknown rank and their drops.)
(1 in 20 runs will be outside the expected range.)
93 rewarding mobs defeated
20 bosses and elite bosses
20 lieutenants
52 minions
Mission 2: Server: Freedom Zone/Mission: Caves_30_Layout_02_02 (8:13)
Targets: Carnival of Shadows
Type DropRate Drops Expected Mobs
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Pool A 1.06% 1 1-7 94 minion equivalents
Salvage 9.43% 8 3-13 85 minion equivalents
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(Table excludes mobs of unknown rank and their drops.)
(1 in 20 runs will be outside the expected range.)
66 rewarding mobs defeated
7 bosses and elite bosses
15 lieutenants
43 minions
Mission 3: Server: Freedom Zone/Mission: Office_30_Layout_06_01 (8:26)
Targets: Circle of Thorns
Type DropRate Drops Expected Mobs
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Pool A 0.00% 0 2-11 222 minion equivalents
Salvage 10.60% 22 10-25 208 minion equivalents
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(Table excludes mobs of unknown rank and their drops.)
(1 in 20 runs will be outside the expected range.)
125 rewarding mobs defeated
35 bosses and elite bosses
28 lieutenants
61 minions
Total
Type DropRate Drops Expected Mobs
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Pool A 0.43% 2 7-21 468 minion equivalents
Salvage 9.69% 42 25-47 434 minion equivalents
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(Table excludes mobs of unknown rank and their drops.)
(1 in 20 runs will be outside the expected range.)
284 rewarding mobs defeated
62 bosses and elite bosses
63 lieutenants
156 minions
3 rewarding mobs of unknown rank
Clemalion (1)
Kara (1)
Behemoth Overlord (1) failed heuristic rank check
0 pets and 14 greys
2 Pool A recipes (Mob Defeats)
0 uncommon and rare recipes
2 common recipes
1 Pool B recipes (Mission Complete)
Expedient Reinforcement: Acc/Dam/Rech (Recipe)
43 salvage
2 rare
7 uncommon
34 common
All radio missions run in PI using my Level 50 Scrapper. I did receive a total of 2 Recipes, 1 Enhancement, and 1 Salvage for completing the missions listed below.
The first mission had 26 bosses. After seeing the drop rate, I was too lazy to manually count anything else. I'll download the parser tool and run some more tests tomorrow.
Circle of Thorns: +0/x8/yes/yes
01 Enhancement
11 Salvage
02 Recipes
Carnival of Shadows: +0/x8/yes/yes
00 Enhancements
07 Salvage
00 Recipes
Carnival of Shadows: +0/x8/yes/yes
04 Enhancements
16 Salvage
03 Recipes
Arachnos: +2/x8/yes/yes
04 Enhancements
08 Salvage
02 Recipes
Carnival of Shadows: +2/x8/yes/yes
02 Enhancements
12 Salvage
02 Recipes
Circle of Thorns: +0/x8/yes/yes
00 Enhancements
09 Salvage
00 Recipes
So, you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions? We shall see!
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Now I think you're going a little extreme there. As far as I am concerned I just think that 15 missions on non-live servers is not a fair representation of the conditions on live. I know the code is probably the same, but I think there may be other factors that lead to what is causing the problem and the only way to see it is to play on the live version of the game.|
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
Since we're in waiting mode, can we please put the tinfoil hats and conspiracy goggles away and stick to the facts until rednames do more investigating? There's no good thing to come from flying off on the handle and accusing the Devs of intentionally ruining your Christmas.
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For a little while I designed web pages for my own amusement. I could tweak them and get them to look perfect on my own system, but then I would look at them on somebody else's and they had issues displaying properly. I think this is a parallel situation.
In his post, Synapse said that there was some unchanged data that was looked at. It would be nice to have a little more information as to what that data was. I don't think he was referring to the data we've accumulated in this thread, though it seems he at least took a cursory look through what we have...thought at 300+ posts, I'm sure it's a lot to wade through.
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Originally Posted by EarthWyrm
...I'll try and switch up characters more often, at least once in a while, to run the same maps and see if I can get different results.
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Originally Posted by Raccoon_
[color=Yellow] Agreed, his feedback was more that of a corrupt politican than a developer
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I've had a gut feeling about recipe drops being lower since I16 as well, but admittedly, I haven't really tested it. However, I ran an 8-person ITF a few nights ago and got ONE recipe drop, although it was a LotG +7.5% Global Recharge.