I agree and thanks Steel! I typed up my response with a throbbing headache at around 3 am. I was dying lol.
My pleasure.
I typed that after sleeping a few hours so I actually had a little bit of coherence. 
Top...
this was on....
....Page 3?!
We're slipping!
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That's it, I called it. If we get Ice Melee I'm rolling me an Ice/EA "Pretty and Pretty" Brute.|
Originally Posted by RogueDemonhunter
So damn Pretty... it's a piety it never went live. (sheds tear)
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Maybe I'll make a piety joke in the name somewhere in your honor!
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I'd make an Ice Melee/Shield for that crazy frost giant/viking magic origin alt I've been dyin to make. |
Originally Posted by MayorOfAngrytown
That's it, I called it. If we get Ice Melee I'm rolling me an Ice/EA "Pretty and Pretty" Brute.
Maybe I'll make a piety joke in the name somewhere in your honor! |
Doms are neat but they just don't cut it for shield bearing, Ice blade/fist Wielding barbarians.
Devs' hello... (gets down on knees... hands cupped in prayer) this is Heather. Appart from my desperate attempt years ago to get Force fielding defenders and Peace Bringers more love, I dont usualy ask for much....
ICE SWORD CIRCLE for Melee toons NOW!
Please...
C'mon everyone! Repeat after me.
ICE SWORD CIRCLE for Melee!
As long as it doesn't replace Ice Patch? I don't know...Ice Path has saved my Fire/Ice Tank on numerous of occasions. I just checked mids...Darn...yeah they would have to swap it with Ice Patch...Maybe they should swap it with Ice sword instead?
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I seem to recal that the big ice sword or te hold with "Extreme" damage was Brute Ice melee's final and Frozen Aura was MIA altogether.. Something single target and big hitting was there in it's place. |
Originally Posted by Negate
As long as it doesn't replace Ice Patch? I don't know...Ice Path has saved my Fire/Ice Tank on numerous of occasions. I just checked mids...Darn...yeah they would have to swap it with Ice Patch...Maybe they should swap it with Ice sword instead?
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I think since both do "Moderate" damage, Ice sword circle showed up fairly early in the set so the brute could 'level' with a proper PAoE. It took it's place in the set, if not it's possition in the set as to when you get it. I recal asking that frost aught to be more like fire's 'firebreath' in fairness for range just with ice damage. Not sure If I asked that while trying an Ice/Ice tanker or a Ice/Fire brute... but that's niether here nor there.
Been a very long time....
It's also conceivable your right about ice patch. I wasn't even thinking about it as I leveled the brute. Damage damage damage back then with fury the way it was.
I play Tanks more than Brutes, but I agree with most of you; no reason not to.
Brutes carry Scrapper bases - the defenses would suck, the slows would hardly exist and the damge would be epic. Why not?
The only thing I can think that I would like to change may break the Brute AT though; swap Freezing Touch for Ice Sword Circle. The broken aspect would be Ice Melee on a Brute causing more AoE damage with Frost and Frozen Aura to boot - most Brutes like Fire Melee as I recall are more ST damage, this out-of-form setting maybe break the mold a bit.
I seriously doubt the Armour could break the Fury though. The majority of the Fury generation is through your attacks; Ice Armour is a bottomless pit of Endurance. Who the heck would argue over a Brute that doesn't know how to slow down? The only downside is the Scrapper bases would mean the armours suck. The Def level will bite, EA's boost will be marginal at best - it would be painful to run.
But damn, would that Brute kick ***...
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I would gladly save up a few 100 mill to make the build super sexy lol. You know...I Love FT A LOT but I think I like your swap of FT and Ice Sword Circle. It would break the mold and it would be awesome If I saw a bunch of Ice/Ice brutes running around.
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Originally Posted by Big_Chill
I play Tanks more than Brutes, but I agree with most of you; no reason not to.
Brutes carry Scrapper bases - the defenses would suck, the slows would hardly exist and the damge would be epic. Why not? The only thing I can think that I would like to change may break the Brute AT though; swap Freezing Touch for Ice Sword Circle. The broken aspect would be Ice Melee on a Brute causing more AoE damage with Frost and Frozen Aura to boot - most Brutes like Fire Melee as I recall are more ST damage, this out-of-form setting maybe break the mold a bit. I seriously doubt the Armour could break the Fury though. The majority of the Fury generation is through your attacks; Ice Armour is a bottomless pit of Endurance. Who the heck would argue over a Brute that doesn't know how to slow down? The only downside is the Scrapper bases would mean the armours suck. The Def level will bite, EA's boost will be marginal at best - it would be painful to run. But damn, would that Brute kick ***... |
Brutes WILL NOT EVER EVER EVER get Ice armor or Ice Melee.
They won't get them because slows cause a MAJOR drop in fury gain. Notice not a single current brute set has a slow in it? THAT'S WHY! It was in CoV beta and they found the major problem there. Ice powers would work a lot better on a scrapper or stalker, but brutes need to be attacked FAR more often so they can keep their biggest damage buff as high as possible.
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You are wrong. Why? Dark armor. Two mez auras that don't just *slow* attacks, they *stop* them completely. Stone melee. Two area knockdowns, one with a easily permable stun attached. A dark/stone brute is laying out a perma mag *4* AoE stun - he isn't getting attacked, *ever*, after the alpha strike. If brutes are allowed to have these, they're allowed to have ice/ice.|
Originally Posted by Winza
Brutes WILL NOT EVER EVER EVER get Ice armor or Ice Melee.
They won't get them because slows cause a MAJOR drop in fury gain. Notice not a single current brute set has a slow in it? THAT'S WHY! It was in CoV beta and they found the major problem there. Ice powers would work a lot better on a scrapper or stalker, but brutes need to be attacked FAR more often so they can keep their biggest damage buff as high as possible. |
The sum total of ice armor's recharge slow? A whopping 32% in chilling embrace. This reduces enemy attack rates to ~75% of their normal values - and ONLY after the enemy has actually used all of his attacks once. In other words, you jump in and take the full alpha and beta strikes to spike your fury at the start of the fight, and then the enemy still gets off 75% of the attacks he normally would over the rest of the fight. Ice melee's only AoE slow (the only kind that would meaningfully affect total incoming damage from a spawn) is a truly astounding 16% in frost. And, don't forget, you're still attacking and building fury that way. Especially with the recent changes to fury generation and decay, the notion that ice powersets would meaningfully hinder fury generation is silly.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
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Whew, You guys swooped in and saved me before I lost it. LOL.
Neutrino, pretty sure you mean Stone/Dark for the perma stun, not dark/stone.
I'd love to see Super Reflexes on a Tank, and Ice/Ice on a Brute.
I've been playing an Ice/Ice Tank, and it gives a really unique melee play experience. Scrappers and Brutes should both have it (and IMO most likely will get it, it's just a question of when).
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i love my ice/ice tank. personally, i would love to see ice melee proliferated, but keep ice armor as the tank AT "exclusive". in terms of changing ice melee, it really can get by without ice patch and greater ice sword. would it be too much if you pushed ice patch to level 28 (taking GIS) and giving the set ice sword circle? that would give the set 3 single target and 3 aoe attacks.
i say this mainly because i'm not sure i could give up frozen aura for ISC.
SG: Guadians of Paragon - VG: Paragon's Darkness
The Usual Suspects: Fimboolvetr (Icer Tank), Tsukiyomi (Mind/Psi/Ice Dom), Smiting Dragon (Dm/Sr Scrap), Widow Mortis (NW)
Up and Comers: Ameterasu (Km/Reg Scrap), Arrhymian (Elec/Nin Stalk), TDMKII (Bot/Traps MM)
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Originally Posted by Infini
i love my ice/ice tank. personally, i would love to see ice melee proliferated, but keep ice armor as the tank AT "exclusive". in terms of changing ice melee, it really can get by without ice patch and greater ice sword. would it be too much if you pushed ice patch to level 28 (taking GIS) and giving the set ice sword circle? that would give the set 3 single target and 3 aoe attacks.
i say this mainly because i'm not sure i could give up frozen aura for ISC. |
Ice Patch is huge mitigation for Tankers. Sure, once you build for the soft-cap, it becomes less important, but in the lower levels, before you can slot a huge number of IOs, Ice Patch is key. Keeping it at level 20 helps there, much more so than moving it to level 28.
Ice Melee is also supposed to be the "controller" melee set. Moving it's three controller-ish powers to the last three picks would be a huge nerf to the set.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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I'll repeat "Ice Sword Circle for Melee" gladly...but what I would really like is a Spines/Ice scrapper |
Originally Posted by RogueDemonhunter
I'd make an Ice Melee/Shield for that crazy frost giant/viking magic origin alt I've been dyin to make.
Doms are neat but they just don't cut it for shield bearing, Ice blade/fist Wielding barbarians. Devs' hello... (gets down on knees... hands cupped in prayer) this is Heather. Appart from my desperate attempt years ago to get Force fielding defenders and Peace Bringers more love, I dont usualy ask for much.... ICE SWORD CIRCLE for Melee toons NOW! Please... C'mon everyone! Repeat after me. ICE SWORD CIRCLE for Melee! |
Lisa-Wondering if there is some sort of incantation to make it so
So don't wait for heroes, do it yourself
You've got the power
winners are losers
who got up and gave it just one more try
***Dennis DeYoung
*Shakes head* I don't like all this talk about "AT Exclusive-ness" lol. Not One bit!
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Originally Posted by Eisenzahn
My main brutes are an Elec/Elec and Dark/Dark. One keeps spawns sapped of endurance, knocked down, disoriented and occasionally slept for a breif moment before more AoE doom hits. The other keeps spawns disoriented and/or feared almost all the time. Both rely heavily on mitigation strategies that prevent opponents from attacking often, or at all. Neither has any trouble at all generating and maintaining fury.
The explanation you've given there is the one we've been given in the past, but that was many years ago. Most of the CoV development team left ages ago, and I've lost track of the number of times things we've been told were unlikely to the point of seeming impossible were delivered to us anyway out of the blue. Ice/Ice would work fine for Brutes, and I hope we get it soon. |
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Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
You are wrong. Why? Dark armor. Two mez auras that don't just *slow* attacks, they *stop* them completely. Stone melee. Two area knockdowns, one with a easily permable stun attached. A dark/stone brute is laying out a perma mag *4* AoE stun - he isn't getting attacked, *ever*, after the alpha strike. If brutes are allowed to have these, they're allowed to have ice/ice.
The sum total of ice armor's recharge slow? A whopping 32% in chilling embrace. This reduces enemy attack rates to ~75% of their normal values - and ONLY after the enemy has actually used all of his attacks once. In other words, you jump in and take the full alpha and beta strikes to spike your fury at the start of the fight, and then the enemy still gets off 75% of the attacks he normally would over the rest of the fight. Ice melee's only AoE slow (the only kind that would meaningfully affect total incoming damage from a spawn) is a truly astounding 16% in frost. And, don't forget, you're still attacking and building fury that way. Especially with the recent changes to fury generation and decay, the notion that ice powersets would meaningfully hinder fury generation is silly. |
Energy Melee can stun, so can Kinetic Melee, Super Strength, Stone Melee and War Mace. Battle Axe, Super Strength, Stone Melee, Claws and Dual Blades do Knock Down/Back/Up. Dark Melee can do Fear. Fire does an added DoT. NONE of the primaries have ANY slow powers. The only slow powers brutes have any access to are from an ancillary pool. The trouble in fury gain caused by slows specifically are the same reason Spines or Thorns aren't a shared brute set either.
There may be ways to make a brute that doesn't rely on any incoming attacks for fury gain, but fact of the matter is, none of them could be built purely out of SOs and would cost a pretty penny at the Black Market/Wentworth's to assemble. As you may have noticed, the devs make it known that the game is designed around use of SOs and IOs are just supposed to be an option, not the standard.
Ice Armor could only be an option if Chilling Embrace were replaced with something else that didn't have a slow attached. Ice Melee is totally scrapped because of the slows like Spines/Thorns.
Perhaps you should actually do research before telling someone they are wrong.
You're right.
Slowing is MUCH WORSE than stopping attacks. Damn...Dark Armor mezzes are crappy cause they stop attacks all together.
Especially when Fury has been changed to drop slower....we're so boned now. Slower dropping fury AND full mezzes?
o wait...
And if you can't find the sarcasm, I'm sure someone will come along soon to quote the important parts.
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Yes, dark armor and stone melee can stun all the minions. And chilling embrace slows enemy attacks to 75% of their usual rate. If you think minions don't make up at least 25% of the attacks you usually take, I'd love to see the missions you play. |
Originally Posted by Winza
Yes, Dark Armor and Electric Aura do sap all the end or stun/fear/sleep... minions.
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| Energy Melee can stun, so can Kinetic Melee, Super Strength, Stone Melee and War Mace. Battle Axe, Super Strength, Stone Melee, Claws and Dual Blades do Knock Down/Back/Up. Dark Melee can do Fear. Fire does an added DoT. NONE of the primaries have ANY slow powers. |
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| There may be ways to make a brute that doesn't rely on any incoming attacks for fury gain, but fact of the matter is... |
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| Perhaps you should actually do research before telling someone they are wrong. |
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| Lieutenants and Boss level foes are still able to attack at the same speed unless you stack effects so they get sapped... as well. |
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Originally Posted by City of Data, power sink entry
Endurance -0.4 PvE only
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Since you don't seem to know how sapping works, and you seem to be under the impression that chilling embrace = no incoming attacks, I don't think we're the ones that need to do research. Before you parrot the 'zomg slows will kill fury' standard line, it'd probably pay to look into what you're arguing.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
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Someone needs to learn to take their own advice.|
Originally Posted by Winza
Perhaps you should actually do research before telling someone they are wrong.
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Here, let me do the research part for you. Ice/Ice was given to brutes for beta, then taken away for a combination of reasons, none of them are valid any longer.
1. Back then, fury required you to be hit to generate fury, not just be attacked. This caused Ice Armor to generate less fury.
2. Ice Armor also slowed enemies, so fewer attacks were being made. This wasn't bad on its own, but it compounded with point number one.
3. Back then, Ice Melee sucked. It did not have footstomp damage in Frozen Aura, and if I recall correctly, Frozen Touch didn't do much damage either.
The largest problem was that the powersets were analyzed as a thematic combination. Not only did ice/ice brutes not generate much fury, they couldn't do anything with the fury they did generate. Ice Armor had two strikes against itself in fury generation. Ice Melee only had one strike in the lack of damage. When you only look at them together, that's enough to wipe them off the drawing board.
Energy Aura was added in its place, which suffered from the first problem, but not the second, so it worked well enough. It became much better when all attacks generated fury regardless of hit.
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Yes it is entirely true. Misses from mobs generate the exact same amount of fury vs hits.
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Originally Posted by _Deth_
Well that is not entirely true, but it's impact is very small now. When CoV was released, the fury mechanic was completely unfriendly to high Def sets. If you didn't get hit, you didn't get fury. Ice Armor, Ice Melee, and specifically the combo Ice/Ice would have meant almost no fury. The incoming damage would have been slow, and with the high def, if built right, almost non-existant. When they changed the mechanic, Def sets became viable.
Def can slow fury generation, you aren't getting hit as much, but is really not an issue if you have a competent attack chain. |
In my opinion Ice Armor is far superior to Energy Aura. You get extra mitigation and mob control from the slows, and have TWO taunt auras (Chilling Embrace has a Taunt component just like Icicles does) so holding the mobs on you is very easy. Since it's typed defense, you do have Fire and Psi "holes" in your defense though. In practice I've found these are partially offset by the slows. Not entirely, but every little bit helps. With Fire and Psi wielding mobs I will usually drop an Ice Patch. They don't do a lot if they're constantly flopping.
By comparison Energy Aura has no passive Taunt aura at all, replacing it instead with a Stealth toggle. It does have the advantage in that it doesn't have what I would consider a true defense gap like Ice does. Its negative energy defense is lower, but not nonexistent. However if one of your goals is keeping the mobs focused on you, good luck. You would be relying entirely on your attacks (and Taunt if you take it) to generate threat.
My 2 cents. Others may disagree, but Ice Armor remains one of my favorite defense sets in the game.