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It was fotm when first released. Since that time it has gotten weaker (when was DR released...). In fact enemies have gotten stronger since... i14/15 not sure, dont much keep track of my eyes. But try fighting a longbow mob in RV now versus 6 months ago.
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Originally Posted by Smurphy
I'm sorry you haven't had good experiences with Electric Armor. I've always been satisfied with mine with SOs but understand how others were frustrated with it. Electric armor was once considered flavor of the month and since that point it hasn't gotten weaker and enemies have not gotten stronger.
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I hardly think the sweeping changes to all powersets' attributes in PvP zones warrants the claim that /Elec has "gotten weaker" - unless you only ever use your characters to farm in PvP zones...
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Electric Armor was unique in PvP because it seemed built after PvP zones were introduced into CoX. You had slow resistance (Ice blasting, storm summoning, kinetics, etc.), damage resistance to the most damaging blaster melee (energy or electric manipulation) and you could drain any meleer silly enough to go toe to toe with you for a few minutes with just Power Sink.
Electric was FotM because it seemed to be a solution for Issue 6 power hero pvp toons. That PvP is a loooong time gone.
EDIT: And yes, Teleportation resist.
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I know they do not have baked in Defense debuff. Which was why I was mentioning it. Since the set had no other mitigation (other than possible END drain).|
Originally Posted by macskull
Elec Armor is a purely resist-based set. Resist-based sets do not, generally speaking, have baked-in defense debuff resistances (the notable exception is Invuln since it's reliant almost as much on defense as it is on resistance). I think this power change will be for the better, but we'll have to give it a shot during open beta to see exactly how it plays out.
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Electric armor suffers from Defense debuffs and can end up taking a lot of extra damage from quite a few sources in the game. Electric has no other way to mitigate this damage increase. I know others have methods to cover this I guess this change is to provide a heal and cover this hole.
I was just hoping to have some other mitigation other than Healing. I am sure I will want the new power don't get me wrong I had just hoped for a new direction. Rather than the give it a heal. Making Electric more of a Debuff resistant set.
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Infinity
Arc Voltinator L50 SS/Elec
Mind Fire Kinesis L50 Fire/Kin
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Well according to this article |
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Conserve Power is at 28, and presumably Energize will be too. I could also see it swapping places with Lightning Reflexes at 20, but I wouldn't consider it likely.
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http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm?p...re=3399&game=3
It is being swapped for Tanks and Scrappers but not for Stalkers and Brutes
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Actually, Longbow got nerfed a bit several issues back. Their resistance debuffs were made weaker is one change I recall, which should help /Elec.
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Originally Posted by GuessWhosBack
It was fotm when first released. Since that time it has gotten weaker (when was DR released...). In fact enemies have gotten stronger since... i14/15 not sure, dont much keep track of my eyes. But try fighting a longbow mob in RV now versus 6 months ago.
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Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
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To be specific, their debuffs weren't lowered in magnitude, they just removed the Unresistable flag, which was making them more dangerous to resist sets than to other sets... And especially to Electric Armor, which had nothing but.|
Originally Posted by Obscure_Blade
Actually, Longbow got nerfed a bit several issues back. Their resistance debuffs were made weaker is one change I recall, which should help /Elec.
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So they're still nasty when stacked, but no longer the Instant Doom they used to be.
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Also note, the grenades -resistance is area based. Simply moving to another area will remove the debuff.
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No, the article just says that brutes and stalkers still have to wait for lvl 28. Scrappers will get it at 20, and tanks at 12. The article states that it is getting swapped with lightning reflexes in power choice order on hero side
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Originally Posted by Chrome_Family
Well according to this article
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm?p...re=3399&game=3 It is being swapped for Tanks and Scrappers but not for Stalkers and Brutes |
If it comes to late for scrappers then I am having a hard time understanding why its fine for Brutes?
Scratches head.
Pinnacle
Arch light L50 INV/SS
Psiberia L50 Kin/Psi
Screaming Mentallica L50 Sonic/MM
Infinity
Arc Voltinator L50 SS/Elec
Mind Fire Kinesis L50 Fire/Kin
Flaming Screamer L50 Fire/Sonic
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Somehow, I think when Castle said 'unfortunately', I think that he'd like to move it, but felt that he couldn't. I have no idea what would happen if the two powers were flipped and energize had a running enhancement in it. Maybe it would crash the game and make it impossible to even get to the respec screen in the first place.|
Originally Posted by ArchLight
If it comes to late for scrappers then I am having a hard time understanding why its fine for Brutes?
Scratches head. |
There has to be a reason besides the cottage rule. If there isn't, we need it moved too!
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maybe because in the early levels brutes have a huge advantage in pve. they dont even need to slot for damage in their attacks because of fury.
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Originally Posted by ArchLight
If it comes to late for scrappers then I am having a hard time understanding why its fine for Brutes?
Scratches head. |
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Probably the same reason they didn't make the same change to Scrappers Evasion.|
Originally Posted by ArchLight
If it comes to late for scrappers then I am having a hard time understanding why its fine for Brutes?
Scratches head. |
For Brutes, they get it at lvl 20, for Scrappers still have to wait till lvl 35.
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Tankers No. 1 talent is survival. I have no issues with the heal being earlier there.
Scrappers have a smaller Resistance Cap (75 vs. 90 compared to brutes) so I don't mind them getting the heal earlier. Electric Armor scrappers that go hunting Freakshow/Rikti will be taking 2 1/2 times more energy damage than brutes or tankers.
Stalkers and Brutes have had access to electric armor for some time now. They'll be respecing into Energize on toons that are already past level 28. I'd still like to see the heal earlier for Stalkers, but they do at least have hide/some form of defense.
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*scratches head* this makes no sense. Electric armor doesn't suffer from defense debuffs at all. Defense Debuffs can't affect you if you don't have any defense. |
Originally Posted by ArchLight
I know they do not have baked in Defense debuff. Which was why I was mentioning it. Since the set had no other mitigation (other than possible END drain).
Electric armor suffers from Defense debuffs and can end up taking a lot of extra damage from quite a few sources in the game. Electric has no other way to mitigate this damage increase. I know others have methods to cover this I guess this change is to provide a heal and cover this hole. I was just hoping to have some other mitigation other than Healing. I am sure I will want the new power don't get me wrong I had just hoped for a new direction. Rather than the give it a heal. Making Electric more of a Debuff resistant set. |
Now, if you get cj, hover, weave, stealth, or a bunch of IOs, then yeah, the defense debuffs will hurt you, but that is not part of the electric armor set itself, and hence not really an issue.
Without throwing in some defense, which would either be negligible or make the set way out of balance, all they really could do was add a heal.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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That is completely wrong: Defense Debuffs can drop your Defense below zero, which increases your enemies toHit-Chance beyond 50%.
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Originally Posted by _Deth_
*scratches head* this makes no sense. Electric armor doesn't suffer from defense debuffs at all. Defense Debuffs can't affect you if you don't have any defense.
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
ACROSS ALL /Elec on Test Conserve power is replaced:
NEW POWER: Energize 60% Endurance discount for 30 seconds. 468 hp heal unenhanced at level 50. 100% Regeneration Increase for 30 seconds. Recharge time 120 seconds. |
You know, I think you may have just hammered your Non-Disclosure Agreement... They DID mention this in an interview, but they didn't mention the numbers. :/
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"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
You know, I think you may have just hammered your Non-Disclosure Agreement... They DID mention this in an interview, but they didn't mention the numbers. :/
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After I16 beta started, the Character Creater was available briefly before they put in the new system that blocked access to it.
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I don't quite think it works like that. I may be wrong, but that just doesn't sound right. |
Originally Posted by SteelKing
That is completely wrong: Defense Debuffs can drop your Defense below zero, which increases your enemies toHit-Chance beyond 50%.
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Now, as I said, I may be wrong. the magic number for softcapping defense is 45%, because their minimum chance of missing you is 50%, their maximum chance of missing is 95%, due to the additional 45% from your defense. Any additional defense you stack on top is only useful in absorbing defense debuffs.
Now, and again, I may be wrong, the base on that chance for them to miss you is 50%. That is with 0 defense. Defense debuffs in this case, as I understand it, do not decrease their chance to miss you. As I understand it, those debuffs just increase the amount of defense you would have to stack to increase their chance to miss. For example, you have had your defense debuffed to -30%. As I understand it, that does not mean they are hitting you 80% of the time, but, say if you started popping small purples, they would have no benefit until you popped that 4th purple to get back above 0% defense.
Defense debuffs do not increase to-hit chances, they decrease the chance to miss. The base chance of a mob to miss you is 50%. So again, you cannot debuff what is not there. At least, that is how I understand it, I could be wrong
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Resistance to defense debuffs
As of I6, resistance to defense debuffs have been added to some hero and villain sets. Not all sets with defense have had resistance to defense debuffs added: specifically Super Reflexes, Stone, Ice, and Energy Aura have had it added. There is some confusion surrounding why resistance to defense debuffs was added in the first place. A common theory is that it was added because resistance resists resistance debuffs, but defense does not resist defense debuffs, so there was a disparity. That's actually not true: resistance resists resistance debuffs, while defense avoids defense debuffs. The asymmetry comes because resistance to resistance debuffs doesn't go down when resistance itself is debuffed: the ability to resist resistance debuffs is itself not debuffable. It never gets weaker. But the ability to avoid a defense debuff obviously goes down as defense itself is debuffed. Defense is vulnerable to what is referred to as "cascade failure" where a defense debuff will reduce defense, making more defense debuffs land, which lowers defense even more, which allows even more defense debuffs to land. This cascade failure, which occurs for defense sets but not for resistance sets, is the actual reason for the addition of defense debuff resistance, and it was specifically added to sets that rely on defense for a significant part of their protection. Its not an intrinsic property of defense, but a specific resistance added to specific power sets. For more information on the strength of the debuff resistance, see City of Data listings for various defense powers. |
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
uhhhh well one of the devs definately said this was going to happen for tanks and scrappers but they said, and I quote "Sorry brutes and stalkers, but your's stays the same." So maybe i'm wrong but I'm pretty sure its not happening for brutes.
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Conserve Power is changing for all versions of Elec Armor. The dev quote was explaining that they switched Lightning Reflexes and Energize for tanks and scrappers, but brutes and stalkers power order stays the same.
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Originally Posted by Deekz_4
uhhhh well one of the devs definately said this was going to happen for tanks and scrappers but they said, and I quote "Sorry brutes and stalkers, but your's stays the same." So maybe i'm wrong but I'm pretty sure its not happening for brutes.
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ALL AT's with electric armor are getting the new power. Scrappers and tanks are getting them earlier, stalkers and brutes will get it at normal level
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Originally Posted by Deekz_4
uhhhh well one of the devs definately said this was going to happen for tanks and scrappers but they said, and I quote "Sorry brutes and stalkers, but your's stays the same." So maybe i'm wrong but I'm pretty sure its not happening for brutes.
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Sorry, you're mistaken. The base chance to hit is 50%, yes, but the maximum chance to hit is 95% even for NPCs. The same ToHit formula applies to both players and NPCs (From Paragon Wiki):|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
I don't quite think it works like that. I may be wrong, but that just doesn't sound right.
Now, as I said, I may be wrong. the magic number for softcapping defense is 45%, because their minimum chance of missing you is 50%, their maximum chance of missing is 95%, due to the additional 45% from your defense. Any additional defense you stack on top is only useful in absorbing defense debuffs. Now, and again, I may be wrong, the base on that chance for them to miss you is 50%. That is with 0 defense. Defense debuffs in this case, as I understand it, do not decrease their chance to miss you. As I understand it, those debuffs just increase the amount of defense you would have to stack to increase their chance to miss. For example, you have had your defense debuffed to -30%. As I understand it, that does not mean they are hitting you 80% of the time, but, say if you started popping small purples, they would have no benefit until you popped that 4th purple to get back above 0% defense. Defense debuffs do not increase to-hit chances, they decrease the chance to miss. The base chance of a mob to miss you is 50%. So again, you cannot debuff what is not there. At least, that is how I understand it, I could be wrong |
HitChance = Clamp( AccMods × Clamp( BaseHitChance + ToHitMods DefMods ) )
In a basic scenario (even level minion with no tohit mods, you with no def mods) you would then get Clamp(1.00xClamp(0.5+0-0)) = 0.5 (50%) chance to hit.
If that mob hits you with a 10% Def Debuff power he would then have Clamp(1.00xClamp(0.5+0-(-0.1))) = 0.6 (60%) chance to hit you.
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Indeed you are wrong. Defense debuffs can reduce your defense to negative values, at which point enemies have an increased chance to hit you. I conducted a little experiment to verify this.|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
Now, and again, I may be wrong, the base on that chance for them to miss you is 50%. That is with 0 defense. Defense debuffs in this case, as I understand it, do not decrease their chance to miss you. As I understand it, those debuffs just increase the amount of defense you would have to stack to increase their chance to miss. For example, you have had your defense debuffed to -30%. As I understand it, that does not mean they are hitting you 80% of the time, but, say if you started popping small purples, they would have no benefit until you popped that 4th purple to get back above 0% defense.
Defense debuffs do not increase to-hit chances, they decrease the chance to miss. The base chance of a mob to miss you is 50%. So again, you cannot debuff what is not there. At least, that is how I understand it, I could be wrong |
Using a level 50 controller with zero defense, I flew up to one end of the big wall in Cimerora. I set Combat Attributes to monitor Melee and Lethal defense and the Combat tab in my chat window to show hit rolls.
Next I pulled an even-con Legionari with an APP attack. I managed a single pull, so just the one Legionari came to attack me.
Prior to his first attack, Melee and Lethal defense numbers were both at 0.00% (shown in white) and on his first attack, he had a 52.50% chance to hit me (this reflects the 1.05x accuracy modifier of all broadsword attacks; ie. 50 * 1.05 = 52.5).
After taking one hit, Melee and Lethal defense numbers registered at -8.00% (now shown in red). His next attack showed a 60.90% chance to hit me. Since 60.90 / 1.05 = 58, his base chance to hit me was 58% when Melee and Lethal defense were at -8.00%.
After taking two hits, my Melee and Lethal defense registered at -16.00%. Now the Legionari hit me with a Shield attack, which lacks the 1.05x modifier. This attack had a 66.00% chance to hit me, which equals his base 50% to hit plus the 16.00% I was debuffed. This attack didn't debuff my defense, so it was still at -16.00%.
His next attack was another sword attack, and it had a 69.30% chance to hit me. And 66 * 1.05 = 69.30, so again his base ToHit was being modified upward by my negative defense.
And that's how it works, according to the in-game stats. Defense debuffs can lower your defense below zero, at which point that value is added to the base ToHit of the enemies who attack you.
So defense debuff resistance is good to have whether you have defense or not.
Man that's a great change. I loved my elec/elec brute when I was lvl'ing him but man...he got hurt a lot...especially versus certain mob groups (Council Warwolves/Freakshows Tanks/etc)...with this heal/power, sounds really good
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