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Im sure end drain is the way to do it swiftly, no end not spawn, simple as
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The problem is, while it sounds like an awesome idea, it requires too much co-ordination. The IQ of a mob is the average IQ of all the members of the mob divided by the number of people, and this rings truer for Hamidon over anything else in CoH. A raid guide for a public raid has to be insanely simple. The reason we don't have an attack phase on Defiant (and, imo, the reason why we're so successful) is because it requires no extra co-ordination beyond "Stand here and click this and DON'T do anything else". We don't have the server population to start doing private raids with more complicated guides, unfortunately.
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I would strongly suggest sweet-talking Xanthus into running one as he is selfless enough to run these and has a proven track record.
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Yeah, well maybe I'll try and organize something when I get my ill/emp to the right levels.
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I thought the problem was not quite enough holds all the way through? Would this not be solved by more controllers?
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I think we had enough controllers, the problem was the lag and it stopped the holds from firing off quickly. Also halfway through there were shouts on Broadcast for the controllers to keep using the holds (possibly because they had stopped). 
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nah 
it was said by us as encourage ment to keep up the work and because we was getting some where holds we're always firing (as they could) as we had hami in containtment, and needed to "keep it up"
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nah it was said by us as encourage ment to keep up the work and because we was getting some where holds we're always firing (as they could) as we had hami in containtment, and needed to "keep it up"
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From what I understand, part of the problem was also that people were told to use Singularities to target through. When you do that at a raid where the mitos aren't cleared, about 80% of your holds are probably ending up on a nearby mito rather than the big guy himself.
Also, lag was probably the main factor in the failure. With that much healspam increasing the lag, the server can "blip", allowing Hamidon to break free, fire his mito spawn and then become re-held before you even see it happening.
OK, sorry if this has been said before, but I just had to check this now (I wouldn't be able to sleep if I hadn't) - so, we know that practically all the enemies in The Hive are GMs, Monsters etc. We also know that the majority of those that aren't, the Devouring Swarms, appear in groups above certain hills at levels 48-50. We also know they have 1500hp max, and that the hills they are above have these inaccessable cave entrances. Now, I just had a quick pop in to The Hive, and read their description... and I think it's hinting at something. The words 'You've encountered these before, but these somehow seem different' just sends alarm bells off in my head, so I just wonder if they are the key to the mystery... then again, it's 2am and I've had too much Red Bull... 
You know - I too have just mapped every inch of the Hive and I'm convinced that there is something off about it.
Map wise - there is almost a definate letter 'D' on the map next to 1 of these normal mob spawns.
I also picked up the time traveller badge by pure accident.
There is an area in the top right corner that is always a black strip. Not sure if this is just a map bug. I'm going back now to take another look around...
@Sweet Chilli
The problem was the lag, I think. It was so bad it was impossible to get moves out with any sort of speed or co-ordination, and I couldn't see any singularities about in order to attack hami, dunno if the lag meant no-one could respawn them quickly enough, or if they all got drawn somewhere else, or what?
When it takes 5 mins between move activation and it registering, you have no way of responding to things quickly, and as I have no idea how the server prioritises input, etc - chances are some moves and effects were being calculated before ours were.
The key to it is probably playing smart and with small tight groups, rather than the "everyone and their dog" approach, which must've been close to crashing the server, and actually DID manage to crash my CoH client at least once.
While I don't want to tell the devs they should redo the monster, they SHOULD go about setting it up in a way that doesn't encourage over one hundred players to all crowd on it in one go, thereby freezing the zone.
While the monster being nearly unkillable might not be a bug, *taking 5 mins for a move to activate clearly is* - like it or not, if Hamidon causes players to act in a way that brings TECHNICAL issues, rather than play issues, about, it's gotta be changed, no two ways about it.
So long as everyone wore Hami costumes, with a good PC there shouldn't have been too many problems.
Personally I had a lot of lag in the past, but when I got a new PC I managed to do the Siren's Call PvP event with barely any lag (full zone, all the powers activating, people in normal costumes)
The special thing about Hami is how difficult he is, the fact he needs dozens and dozens of Heros to take him down. Changing that would ruin him, how special the raids are.
Personal opinion: turn your graphics settings down, tell people off if they aren't in Hami costumes, and if you're PC is at fault - buy a good one 
Well, although we got bested, we must remember two things:
a) It's not the fault of any of the leaders who were in the secret leading room. We did our best to make sure everyone was doing their best, and I thank babel for orginizing such an event.
b) In the past, we used the fact that hamidon didn't attack while held. This time, this was no longer a possibility since it can now attack through holds, even when held. So we used the next best thing - containment. What we didn't take into account is the fact that containment also does double damage for immobilized enemies. Either Hamidon is inherently immobilized (so everyone would see double damage log, can anyone confirm this isn't the case?), or he got immobolized half way through (which did happen, I saw some tenacles, ice, earth immobilize animations under hamidon). This led us to believe he wasn't held, but it was too late to fall back as everyone was losing hope and there wasn't enough time to set everyone in place again.
Was fun, nontheless. thx babs.
@Double
Double Flame 50 fire/devices
Double Shade 50 tri-form warshade
Double Light 50 dwarf-human peacebringer
Double Control 50 earth/rad
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In the past, we used the fact that hamidon didn't attack while held. This time, this was no longer a possibility since it can now attack through holds, even when held. So we used the next best thing - containment.
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The best thing to do is to watch the ground beneath Hamidon. Most of the time there was blocks of ice/stone, I'm not too good with hold names, and these could have been immobilisation powers. After everyone started attacking the lag went up and Hamidon started disappearing, the blocks of stone/ice also disappeared and I wasn't sure if it was still there but the conditions were preventing me from seeing it. I couldn't see most people near me but on previous raids i've been able to spam speed boost at a fast rate. This time I had transfusion on auto and i had to rely on the combat window to know if it was firing.
Good try all. God the servers suck and I think we contributed to the heatwave in Germany by a couple of degrees at least.
Firstly;
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Not clearing mitos is too advanced a tactic for inexperienced hami raiders which the majority were. I would only attempt a heal blanket with a dedicated Hami squad who all knew what they were doing.
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QFT imo. I know you have done it before. But one way to reduce the lag when trying to take hamidon is to not require a healing blanket and 5-6 tanks. Instead, take the mitos down and have only trollers and kins in the bubble holding hamidon once all mitos are down. (Dual purpose of killing mitos is also team work and giving people something to do) After he is held, then and only then would I send more in to hurt him.
Last night there were well over 60 people in melee range of hamidon at all times. On a quick check of vanguard duration, i reckong we were getting 1 minute of game time for every 6-7 minutes of real time.
Also - as mentioned, i saw Hami pretty much perma immobilised. (when he showed up!! grrr) So until it can be guarenteed that he isnt being immobilised by US, using Containment as the indicator isnt going to work?
FWIW Hami will go down next when it isnt organised on this forum. Point being, there are literally hundreds of 50s now, and when the thread is up for over a month your going to get a whole raft of people turning up, and a good proportion of those will be going on 2nd hand information. Which leads to costume issues, incorrect power spammage etc.
Lets face it, the servers are not going to get any better. To beat the lag, something completely different must be tried.
Just my 2 cents I guess.
I think that a new approach might be to use Kinetics more...
Continue with the troller holds but have a couple of squads of kinetics hitting Hami with Siphon Speed and Transference.
Another idea I had was to use mass confusion on a bunch of swarms....and then set them on Hami. I reckon slows will work on him but they will need to be amassed like hold magnitudes and Swarms can very quickly reduce a toon to a statue....
Anyway, even though we had to concede defeat I still had a great time. Thanks to Babel for attempting to herd cats and thanks to the taunt team for such amusing company during the raid. I'll finish the babble now
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Another idea I had was to use mass confusion on a bunch of swarms....and then set them on Hami.
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Forgive me if this is impossible, but what about confusing the GMs that you say are in the area? I've never played CoH myself, but surely they'll do a ton of damage to him if they attack?
I was thinking the other night (don't try, it hurts). One of the things that is a problem is that it takes an hour to get the team organized. Can we do that faster?
I think we can do it faster, assuming that we have our Raid Leader (i.e. Babs) and all Group Leaders (i.e. Raz for Hold) sorted before hand.
We make sure we have one global channel per group ("Christmas Hami - Hold", "Christmas Hami - Rad") and people can join the channel they are interested in, people are not silenced (yet).
You are only allowed to join the group leaders team if you agree to leading a sub-team, which means that "BL go start a hold team" from Raz will make me quit the team and now I am team leader for the current hold team, until we are full. Now I can announce on "Christmas Hami - Hold" send tells to Black Light to enter current team. After 7 people have joined me, "Black Light's team is full, start a new one". And I will silence my team members on the channel, that way we won't forget people because people who are Holders that isn't in a team yet can tell that they are looking for one.
An other thing that people complain about is the lack of information about what the current status is, so why not have one person resposible for that and make sure that once a minute (or something) there is a message on "Christmas Hami" like "We are in Hold phase, only Hold teams and Rad teams on Hami." or "Hami is down to 23600 HP, prepare for Mito spawn", of course everyone but a few will be silenced in that channel.
This might be too complicated, but maybe it is worth a try?
Black Light, Electricity/Devices Blaster at Union
White Knight, Illusion/Radiation Controller at Union
Obscurum est absentis lux lucis. Ego sum lux lucis!
I only had two issues that I noticed with the raid.
1 was that the sings seemed to keep losing the targeting this time. I was hopping between Grav Mistress's, Force of Will's, and the speccy terrors, because I kept getting "attack invalid for your current target" comming up in the combat window.
That can't have been helping with keeping up the holding phase, especially if people weren't watching the combat window, 'cos it was the only way *I* could tell if a power had actually fired.
The other was the Babel was the only raid leader using the global channel for orders, most of the other commands I saw were being given out in broadcast or local. Less of a problem once the teams were formed since our leader was relaying orders but it made it hard sometimes to work out what was an offical order and what was an officious sounding idiot.
Shame there's no way to silence people on broadcast really.
Last night was my first Hami raid and I just wanted to chip in with a few comments on what I noticed.
1) Oh God, the lag. Took about a minute (or more) for a power to activate and recharge. Made it difficult to attack.
2) Didn't see the big jelly once. Targetting through others isn't the best way to maintain any sort of dps.
3) While I think Babel did a great job trying to keep us all under control, it would have been nice to have regular status updates, especially when we were all hanging about outside the Hive.
Here's hoping we have better luck next time.
UNION @Flitz 50, Lead Hose 50, Red Rag 50
DEFIANT Rose Bloodthorn 34
VIGILANCE Captain Caledonia 20 - Yeah, I made toons on the French server coz we only had 4 back then (might have to transfer/recreate them on one of the US servers)
..and many more!
RE: Containment indicating Hamidon is held.
Just so you guys know, you get Containment off the bat with Hamidon. As far as the game engine is concerned, he's always immobilised.
The best indicator is whether or not you can A) See Tesla Cage, or B) the Hamidon Tank reports being attacked with a less damaging attack.
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In the past, we used the fact that hamidon didn't attack while held. This time, this was no longer a possibility since it can now attack through holds, even when held. So we used the next best thing - containment. What we didn't take into account is the fact that containment also does double damage for immobilized enemies. Either Hamidon is inherently immobilized (so everyone would see double damage log, can anyone confirm this isn't the case?), or he got immobolized half way through (which did happen
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Hamidon is actually perma-immobilized, in the same way as things like the auto-turrets in Sirens Call or Striga Isle are. You always have Containment damage from Hamidon. The best indicator of his held status is to have the tank team watch for the Tesla Cage animation around the middle of Hamidon. It's clearly visible to someone not standing in the lag of the hold group, and it won't appear until he's actually held.
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Continue with the troller holds but have a couple of squads of kinetics hitting Hami with Siphon Speed and Transference.
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What would Siphon Speed and Transference do, exactly?
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Another idea I had was to use mass confusion on a bunch of swarms....and then set them on Hami. I reckon slows will work on him but they will need to be amassed like hold magnitudes and Swarms can very quickly reduce a toon to a statue....
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Why do you want to try and slow Hamidon? So when he spawns his mitos once, he won't do it a second time for ages?! After the first mito-spawn the raid is over anyway, so how is slowing him going to change the outcome?
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Forgive me if this is impossible, but what about confusing the GMs that you say are in the area? I've never played CoH myself, but surely they'll do a ton of damage to him if they attack?
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Already been tried by the US. They had literally an army of GMs set on Hamidon, and he killed them all before they could do anything.
I was keeping an eye on the following chat channels:
1) the official raid Global
2) Request (as it was said that'd be the secondary?)
3) Team, for my hold team's coordination
I saw a LOT of speach bubbles, sometimes I even managed to read some of them, but without having any idea if it was just an idle scream in terror for what ever, or an order from the raid leaders.
@ShadowGhost & @Ghostie
The Grav Mistress, Mistress of Gravity
If you have nothing useful to say, you have two choices: Say something useless or stay quiet.
I didn't show up because I was told it was boring. :-/
However, I want to know - what went wrong, sounded great on the forums... 
@Double
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Well, although we got bested, we must remember two things:
a) It's not the fault of any of the leaders who were in the secret leading room. We did our best to make sure everyone was doing their best, and I thank babel for orginizing such an event.
b) In the past, we used the fact that hamidon didn't attack while held. This time, this was no longer a possibility since it can now attack through holds, even when held. So we used the next best thing - containment. What we didn't take into account is the fact that containment also does double damage for immobilized enemies. Either Hamidon is inherently immobilized (so everyone would see double damage log, can anyone confirm this isn't the case?), or he got immobolized half way through (which did happen, I saw some tenacles, ice, earth immobilize animations under hamidon). This led us to believe he wasn't held, but it was too late to fall back as everyone was losing hope and there wasn't enough time to set everyone in place again.
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I'm not convinced that containment is a valid test. After all Hami doesn't move. Superdine crates don't move either and I'm pretty sure you get containment damage on them whether you hold them first or not. So I think he probably is perma-immobolised. We need to test this by sending a invisible controller in to hold Hami alone. How many grant invisibles do we need to allow a controller to stealth in?
@Black_Light
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An other thing that people complain about is the lack of information about what the current status is, so why not have one person resposible for that and make sure that once a minute (or something) there is a message on "Christmas Hami" like "We are in Hold phase, only Hold teams and Rad teams on Hami." or "Hami is down to 23600 HP, prepare for Mito spawn", of course everyone but a few will be silenced in that channel.
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I think the next raid should have a designated PR man. This person doesn't even have to be on the raid, just be in charge of keeping people informed. I was getting tells from one of the leaders of another tank team. Now I didn't know what was going on at the time and was trying to find out so I ended up being slightly rude to him. Sorry.
3 other things.
Tank Postioning: During the raid I had the taunt team stand at the North of Hamidon. I tried to get the tanks in other teams to stand to the north too. I noticed a number of people complaining about tankers taunting Hamidon were making him attack us. That was the point of having all tankers to the north, so that squishies wouldn't be attacked, because they would be south, east or west.
Targetting and gfx setting: unlike last raid I actually kept Hamidon visible and targeted until the Mito's spawned. Once that happened I lost it, until I jumped over them. I think that with a powerful enough computer you don't lose visibility if you are close, this wasn't the case last Hami raid with my old computer. I put my gfx settings back up to full halfway through the raid and noticed no change in performance, the lag was server side.
Dealing with Lag and power recharge: The Icons in the power bar lie as they are client side. You have to use the Combat window. It will tell you when things recharge. Someone really needs to write a guide about this before the next Hami raid.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
OK, seeing as everyone else is chipping in, here's my two cents on why it failed.
Team Leaders - The one thing that shocked me was exactly how little info there was on the Hamidon channel. Babel, as raid leader, should have been organising and informing the team leaders of what to do(I assume there were two channels, one for general and one for team leaders). However, at LEAST one of those leaders should have then been keeping the rest of the raid team updated on developments. Thinking people are going to wait around in The Hive when they have no idea of what's going on and none of the team leaders can be bothered to update them is a sure way to get people thinking 'I'm not standing here for another hour when we don't even know what's going on. I'm off'.
During the last raid, Jiaozy was telling the team leaders what was going on and we were relaying that info to the general channel, even if it was just an update every 10 minutes along the lines of 'holding phase ongoing'. I pretty much kept up a continual stream of info based on what Jiaozy was telling us to keep every member of the raid team informed. Jiaozy also removed broadcast and tells from his channels so the only info he was getting was from the raid channels, anything on the other channels that may have been relevant, the team leaders filtered out and passed onto him ove rthe leader channel so he wasn't bogged down in junk and spam. Do not expect people to sit around with no idea of what's going on until they are called for like some sort of obedient pup.
Targetting
I've heard that singularities were used for people to target Hamidon through. My only question there is WHAT! Using an AI NPC, when there are mitos around and they've just as much chance of attacking them as Hami is a bad idea.
I know Hami fades from sight due to the lag at certain points but there's always someone who can see/target him. As soon as a power recharges, looks who's firing into the blob and target through them(if none of the designated raid targeters have a lock), not blindly through an AI bot that could be attacking anything.
The thought of how many crucial holds were wasted here is frightening and, IMO, this seems to be the single biggest cause of failure.
Too Many Chiefs
At the end of the day, this was Babels raid and all the calls were his to make, NO ONE ELSES, unless input was specifically asked for by previous raid/team leaders. Unless you had been a raid or team leader in the past, how much you had read on Hammi raids or how many successful ones you had been on in the past didn't mean squat, especially if you had never done one before but were suddenly full of your opinions on how it should be done. I refer you to my initial taunt team requirements before I had to withdraw from the raid.
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Must be willing to listen and follow orders.
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One of the biggest problems with Hami raids on Union is that there are a lot of people out there who think they know how things should and shouldn't be done. They may know the numbers in the game back to front, may have exhausted every bit of content in the game and have a list of lvl 50's as long as my arm but, here is the killer... NONE OF THIS MEANS A THING.
At the end of the day, if I had been on the raid, the only people who's opinions or instructions/orders would have held any weight for me would have been Jersey's, Jiaozy's, Babels and my taunt team members from the last two successful raids. Thankfully, I also know none of those would have issued orders outside their teams but would have passed any suggestions or actions to Babel as he was the leader and all decisions were his to make.
Hamidon is about being a team player. It's about knowing when to follow orders, when to communicate with the other raid members and keep them updated and, more importantly, motivated.
As for the future of Hami raids on Union? IMO, we'll never get to where Defiant are unless there's a major change in the way they are done.
People run Hami raids on here as 'the last big challenge'. Every successful raid, we've had a different raid and team leaders. When I put my taunt team together, I deliberately took as many members of the previous raid teams as possible but from what I've seen of the other core teams, very few had done Hami raids before. This meant when things went wrong, they were making decisions on second hand info. I only managed to get 3 previous taunt team members on my team, making four of us and was a little concerned about that. I would prefer two or three new members and 5-6 experienced ones so new people are learning without endangering the raid.
To see other teams led by people who'd never even been in a 'core' team for a Hami raid and where the rest of the team was made up of people in the same situation was quite a big concern.
I'm all for bringing new people into the key Hami roles as we need to get the knowledge shared around more but, as Defiant have shown, you still have to have a backbone of players who KNOW what they're doing, rather than have READ what they should be doing in the main roles.
The other reason I don't think we'll succeed? Ego. From what I understand on the Defiant raids, it's the fact that everyone listens to Xanthus and does what the hell they are told. From the reports I heard last night, that wasn't the case with people trying to issue their own orders.
Were I to put a raid farming team together, I would have Jersey(raid leader), Jiaozy(taunt team leader), Double(rad team leader), and Stagefright(PA drop leader). I would then fill 3 of the spots in each team with previous raiders and the others with new raiders. One member of each team would also be nominated as deputy to eventually lead the team in future raids. After 2-3 raids, I'd then look at promoting one or two deputies up for each raid, the leaders stepping down and new deputies picked to keep the continuity, rinse and repeat.
Hey presto, 8-10 raids down the road and you've suddenly got a dozen or so people who are all capable of leading a raid and KNOW how to react in them, rather than think they know.
Of course, this probably won't happen as the people who've been mentioned have all been there, done that, put up with the grief, aggravation, boredom, hard work needed to pull it off and probably have no desire to do it again.
Babel, Kudos to you for having the balls to organise one. Running a Hamidon raid is one of the few challenges I have left in the game but you'll sure as hell not see me anywhere near one in the near future as I've seen what a thankless task it is.
I'm gutted for you that it didn't succeed but don't feel too down as plenty of other people have failed.
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Were I to put a raid farming team together, I would have Jersey(raid leader), Jiaozy(taunt team leader), Double(rad team leader), and Stagefright(PA drop leader).
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Nice to know my 'Hold Team Leadership' is "good enough" for mention.. heh.. and I think I did pretty well regardless...
nice to know I'm not good enough in your eyes to do my job... as I did in previous raids.
Or maybe I'm reading too much into it.. meh...
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Possibly.
Not mentioning a player is not the same as attacking or criticising that player, after all.
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Were I to put a raid farming team together, I would have Jersey(raid leader), Jiaozy(taunt team leader), Double(rad team leader), and Stagefright(PA drop leader).
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Nice to know my 'Hold Team Leadership' is "good enough" for mention.. heh.. and I think I did pretty well regardless...
nice to know I'm not good enough in your eyes to do my job... as I did in previous raids.
Or maybe I'm reading too much into it.. meh...
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Possibly.
Not mentioning a player is not the same as attacking or criticising that player, after all.
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true true Bridger ..
I can't argue with that.
and HELLOWIE btw
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Were I to put a raid farming team together, I would have Jersey(raid leader), Jiaozy(taunt team leader), Double(rad team leader), and Stagefright(PA drop leader).
[/ QUOTE ]
Nice to know my 'Hold Team Leadership' is "good enough" for mention.. heh.. and I think I did pretty well regardless...
nice to know I'm not good enough in your eyes to do my job... as I did in previous raids.
Or maybe I'm reading too much into it.. meh...
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Possibly.
Not mentioning a player is not the same as attacking or criticising that player, after all.
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nice stealth edit bridger :P.
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The problem wasn't lack of people either.
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Might be worth holding off the hami raids until I8 hits. Mind you, I think numbers will be flagging worse than they are now so that might not help much either.
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Why I8?
Seems to be a common theme to your posts recently.
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Well I8 lets us server hop - which will be nice.
I thought the problem was not quite enough holds all the way through? Would this not be solved by more controllers?
BTW - I agree that there must be an as yet undiscovered way to do hami over. The dev's managed with 24 characters.
What stats do we have for hami so far? E.g. resitance to toxic known? Hold resistance known? Knockback resistance known? Etc...etc.
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the numbers are fine but the server isnt up to taking on hami with the mitos up, union doesnt need more people or specific ATs, just needs to find the way that works for them. With the numbers we had tonight it would (imho) been more effecient to clear the mitos.
As for the devs doing it with 24, well i should damn well hope so, you put something togather and you should know how to take it apart which is why one of my pvp characters will always be able to take out another.
Half the nerfs we have received have been about maintaining Hami at the top of the food chain, as soon as one method is established as foolproof in comes another nerf and it hurts the EU servers more than the US as we dont have the numbers or the organisation.
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Are we absolutely certain he can't spawn mitos through hold too?
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Yes, or US servers wouldn't be beating him, which they are. A mito spawn pretty much = game over, no matter your server population.
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Im sure end drain is the way to do it swiftly, no end not spawn, simple as but Im not going to organise anything, I just dont need the agrivation however I would strongly suggest sweet-talking Xanthus into running one as he is selfless enough to run these and has a proven track record. The way he does it is still the staple on the majority of the US servers when the Hami farmers are not sneaking in their special forces.
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault