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Team Leaders - The one thing that shocked me was exactly how little info there was on the Hamidon channel. Babel, as raid leader, should have been organising and informing the team leaders of what to do(I assume there were two channels, one for general and one for team leaders). However, at LEAST one of those leaders should have then been keeping the rest of the raid team updated on developments. Thinking people are going to wait around in The Hive when they have no idea of what's going on and none of the team leaders can be bothered to update them is a sure way to get people thinking 'I'm not standing here for another hour when we don't even know what's going on. I'm off'.
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Request should have been used, not a global channel/broadcast IMHO
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Targetting
I've heard that singularities were used for people to target Hamidon through. My only question there is WHAT! Using an AI NPC, when there are mitos around and they've just as much chance of attacking them as Hami is a bad idea.
I know Hami fades from sight due to the lag at certain points but there's always someone who can see/target him. As soon as a power recharges, looks who's firing into the blob and target through them(if none of the designated raid targeters have a lock), not blindly through an AI bot that could be attacking anything.
The thought of how many crucial holds were wasted here is frightening and, IMO, this seems to be the single biggest cause of failure.
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Sings are unlikely to have been targeting mitos as they should have been spawned next to Hami, its impossible to function using a player as a targeter in regards to hami as they may have him one minute and not the next, also X amount of people all trying to find one person to look through is massively undynamic.
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Too Many Chiefs
At the end of the day, this was Babels raid and all the calls were his to make, NO ONE ELSES, unless input was specifically asked for by previous raid/team leaders. Unless you had been a raid or team leader in the past, how much you had read on Hammi raids or how many successful ones you had been on in the past didn't mean squat, especially if you had never done one before but were suddenly full of your opinions on how it should be done. I refer you to my initial taunt team requirements before I had to withdraw from the raid.
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No substitute for experience 
I picked up 4 last week 
I knew this was doomed to failure, it was like a defiant raid 12+ months ago when the server lag meant power rotation took forever and the thing was, we HAD cleared the mitos. The servers that ncsoft provide are specified to handle 75 people per zone effectively so 150 + spam heals + all the mitos still there is just not going to happen. 40 could run a heal blanket and kill hami but would have to be specific ATs
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The other reason I don't think we'll succeed? Ego. From what I understand on the Defiant raids, it's the fact that everyone listens to Xanthus and does what the hell they are told. From the reports I heard last night, that wasn't the case with people trying to issue their own orders.
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Dont fall prey to rose tinted glasses syndrome, while there are a fair number of people on defiant who know what they are doing we still have hoards who run about doing whatever they feel like and making the job harder than it already is
Ditch the blanket, clear the mitos and hold him to death, its not the fastest way, its not the most efficient way but its far more likely to work.
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
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@Double
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Well, although we got bested, we must remember two things:
a) It's not the fault of any of the leaders who were in the secret leading room. We did our best to make sure everyone was doing their best, and I thank babel for orginizing such an event.
b) In the past, we used the fact that hamidon didn't attack while held. This time, this was no longer a possibility since it can now attack through holds, even when held. So we used the next best thing - containment. What we didn't take into account is the fact that containment also does double damage for immobilized enemies. Either Hamidon is inherently immobilized (so everyone would see double damage log, can anyone confirm this isn't the case?), or he got immobolized half way through (which did happen, I saw some tenacles, ice, earth immobilize animations under hamidon). This led us to believe he wasn't held, but it was too late to fall back as everyone was losing hope and there wasn't enough time to set everyone in place again.
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I'm not convinced that containment is a valid test. After all Hami doesn't move. Superdine crates don't move either and I'm pretty sure you get containment damage on them whether you hold them first or not. So I think he probably is perma-immobolised.
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My point exacly. relying on Containment damage rather then other things is just, fundemently, wrong.
@Kins,
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At the end of the day, this was Babels raid and all the calls were his to make, NO ONE ELSES, unless input was specifically asked for by previous raid/team leaders. Unless you had been a raid or team leader in the past, how much you had read on Hammi raids or how many successful ones you had been on in the past didn't mean squat, especially if you had never done one before but were suddenly full of your opinions on how it should be done. I refer you to my initial taunt team requirements before I had to withdraw from the raid.
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Exacly. It was our (leaders) fault for not informing the guys in the proper channels, but some of us were too busy working with 3 teams or more at a time (hold leader), going back and forth from and to the hive (me), and most of us were talking with about 5-6 different people at any given time.
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At the end of the day, if I had been on the raid, the only people who's opinions or instructions/orders would have held any weight for me would have been Jersey's, Jiaozy's, Babels and (...)
Were I to put a raid farming team together, I would have Jersey(raid leader), Jiaozy(taunt team leader), Double(rad team leader), and Stagefright(PA drop leader).
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Fact is, we were short on experienced players and raiders. Neither Jersey, Jiaozy or Stagefright (not blaming anyone here for that, though) didn't show up. We were a bunch of leaders talking in Leaders, and what was going on was nothing short of "experienced".
No one questioned babs' decisions - they were his own to make, we just helped as we could. Fact is, we were short on leaders and, IMO, the entire "leading" part of the raid was wrong since 7:18, where we realized we were missing 2 key leaders.
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To see other teams led by people who'd never even been in a 'core' team for a Hami raid and where the rest of the team was made up of people in the same situation was quite a big concern.
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Well, I started by leading the radiation team, but ended up giving that lead to Sparks, and I found myself leading a mix of rad, 4 kins and one forcefielder. Yes, we were, during the entire raid, as far as I can tell, 4 kinetics, 9 radiation emissions, and 2 forcefielders (one someone I was too lagging to see, and the other was picked up personally in the middle of the holding stage.
Next raid, i'll have much more to say about how leading should be done (heck, I might even start my own raid. Don't wait for it, though). Yes, only been to 4 raids (2 successful), and only had key roll in one (which we failed), but I have some better insight: Key Positions, such as team leaders, should be given to people with experience, and they should not decide to not show up. IMO, things should be made more complicated (more teams), in order to make a successful raid (for example, this time, a team of 3-5 force fielder that will spread around the groups in order to supply bubbles, more emphasis on kin teams, etc.)
@Double
Double Flame 50 fire/devices
Double Shade 50 tri-form warshade
Double Light 50 dwarf-human peacebringer
Double Control 50 earth/rad
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Next raid, i'll have much more to say about how leading should be done (heck, I might even start my own raid. Don't wait for it, though). Yes, only been to 4 raids (2 successful), and only had key roll in one (which we failed), but I have some better insight: Key Positions, such as team leaders, should be given to people with experience, and they should not decide to not show up. IMO, things should be made more complicated (more teams), in order to make a successful raid (for example, this time, a team of 3-5 force fielder that will spread around the groups in order to supply bubbles, more emphasis on kin teams, etc.)
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If you need my help on hold-team, I'll lend a hand
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You know - I too have just mapped every inch of the Hive and I'm convinced that there is something off about it.
Map wise - there is almost a definate letter 'D' on the map next to 1 of these normal mob spawns.
I also picked up the time traveller badge by pure accident.
There is an area in the top right corner that is always a black strip. Not sure if this is just a map bug. I'm going back now to take another look around...
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Maybe we are thinking the wrong way about the doors. Perhaps you don't get into them but instead are exits. Where from I have no idea.
Don't suppose anyone has a picture of these doors?
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..and read their description... and I think it's hinting at something. The words 'You've encountered these before, but these somehow seem different' just sends alarm bells off in my head, so I just wonder if they are the key to the mystery.
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If you get stung by the swarms in the hive you won't be able to fly and teleport....that's where they differ from normal swarms.
SingStar:
"Extremists LOVE to fish to get us annoyed so we break the forum rules."
CRACK68:
"The origin of life wasn't planned either, should all life be declared a bug and wiped out?"
Lionsbane:
"You know me.Ever the realist"
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You know - I too have just mapped every inch of the Hive and I'm convinced that there is something off about it.
Map wise - there is almost a definate letter 'D' on the map next to 1 of these normal mob spawns.
I also picked up the time traveller badge by pure accident.
There is an area in the top right corner that is always a black strip. Not sure if this is just a map bug. I'm going back now to take another look around...
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Maybe we are thinking the wrong way about the doors. Perhaps you don't get into them but instead are exits. Where from I have no idea.
Don't suppose anyone has a picture of these doors?
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Or could it be thats its just a "generic" model of a building with doors theyve put in? Maybe for possible door missions in the Hive at a later point in CoH history.
Don't pay much heed to the silver bullet theories.
SingStar:
"Extremists LOVE to fish to get us annoyed so we break the forum rules."
CRACK68:
"The origin of life wasn't planned either, should all life be declared a bug and wiped out?"
Lionsbane:
"You know me.Ever the realist"
Well, every solution we (aka the players on either side of the atlantic) have tried has been brute force (overwhelming the hamidon in some way be it holds, end drain etc)
The devs have also nerfed a few of the more sucessful brute force solutions so they don't work, and said that you can kill Hamidon with just 24 heroes.
There's got to be a womble spoon out there somewhere, it's just really really really well hidden. 
Just an update on those 'doors'. They are not doors - they are simply a standard model for rocky outcrops that are also found elsewhere outside of the Hive.
I have also noticed the route for runners and its a long and interesting one. Its like they really, really want you to run there. Also the number of swarms that have -fly and -teleport is ridiculous. And the lenght of time it lasts is huge.
I got hit on my PB and she was grounded for about 5 mins. I even logged off thinking it was a bug and logged back on and the -fly -teleport was still in effect.
Has anyone ever seen or got a contect in Eden that isn't woodsman? Just curious to find out where the nearest NPC is to hami.
@Sweet Chilli
I'm not sure I'm right, but from what I saw earlier in the thread.. mito's weren't cleared? Why?
I know I'm a Hamidon n00b and never actually fought him, but from strategies I've read, clearing the mito's was one of the most important things to do.
What were the benefits in trying to do it without doing this?
(Just out of interest, as I've never heard of this tactic being implemented before)
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I got hit on my PB and she was grounded for about 5 mins. I even logged off thinking it was a bug and logged back on and the -fly -teleport was still in effect.
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That's WAI, I'm afraid.
I'm guessing those Swarms act like GMs in some way themselves, so have extend periods of time where they're "status effect" stays.
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Has anyone ever seen or got a contect in Eden that isn't woodsman? Just curious to find out where the nearest NPC is to hami.
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He's the only one there, for the Task Force, otherwise Eden is a 'Hazard Zone'.
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What were the benefits in trying to do it without doing this?
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iirc, such a thing was tried before and did to most extent succeed, and the Mitos we're "contained", using the PAs. The only reason(s) that failed was due to the usual bunch messing it up, and the holding phase not getting Hami "locked down", in time for the Mito Spawn.
Since Hamidon has now changed slightly, Mito-leaving was along shot at best, and for the time we DID actually get sumwhere and get him past halfway, and still survived.
But, due to lag-issues, and whatnot the holding teams just couldn't keep it going... my holding teams, as I was being informed over the course - slowly over, time dropped soon after, the Hami Taunt tanks dropped, and we just coudn't get back up/back in control. The Healing Blanket did it's best with the Forcefields..but it just wasn't enough towards the end.
That being said, and I still stick to.. failed as we did getting Hami down to 22115 HP, even with his Mitos there,and past half way, was an achievement in itself considering what we was up against.
All teams, imo did an excellent Job, and it was rather fun. 
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Just an update on those 'doors'. They are not doors - they are simply a standard model for rocky outcrops that are also found elsewhere outside of the Hive.
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As I guess the doors in portal corps buildings in the northwest are.
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I have also noticed the route for runners and its a long and interesting one. Its like they really, really want you to run there. Also the number of swarms that have -fly and -teleport is ridiculous. And the lenght of time it lasts is huge.
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It's almost as though they expect us to fight our way to Hamidon. In fact, that might be an amusing thing to do. Any takers? I'm not suggesting actually fighting Hamidon at the end though.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
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I have also noticed the route for runners and its a long and interesting one. Its like they really, really want you to run there. Also the number of swarms that have -fly and -teleport is ridiculous. And the lenght of time it lasts is huge.
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It's almost as though they expect us to fight our way to Hamidon. In fact, that might be an amusing thing to do. Any takers? I'm not suggesting actually fighting Hamidon at the end though.
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Humm, worth a try with an empty insp bar perhaps?
After all, mobs drop ambrosia in the Titan trial, maybe there's a rare anti-hami insp drop?
That's the kind of thing you wouldn't see unless you slaughtered a lot of mobs in the zone...
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I have also noticed the route for runners and its a long and interesting one. Its like they really, really want you to run there. Also the number of swarms that have -fly and -teleport is ridiculous. And the lenght of time it lasts is huge.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's almost as though they expect us to fight our way to Hamidon. In fact, that might be an amusing thing to do. Any takers? I'm not suggesting actually fighting Hamidon at the end though.
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Humm, worth a try with an empty insp bar perhaps?
After all, mobs drop ambrosia in the Titan trial, maybe there's a rare anti-hami insp drop?
That's the kind of thing you wouldn't see unless you slaughtered a lot of mobs in the zone...
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Maybe it's an insp that you can only get one of, has a very rare drop rate, and takes 4% off Hami's health
Hence why 24 people can defeat him.
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I have also noticed the route for runners and its a long and interesting one. Its like they really, really want you to run there. Also the number of swarms that have -fly and -teleport is ridiculous. And the lenght of time it lasts is huge.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's almost as though they expect us to fight our way to Hamidon. In fact, that might be an amusing thing to do. Any takers? I'm not suggesting actually fighting Hamidon at the end though.
[/ QUOTE ]
Humm, worth a try with an empty insp bar perhaps?
After all, mobs drop ambrosia in the Titan trial, maybe there's a rare anti-hami insp drop?
That's the kind of thing you wouldn't see unless you slaughtered a lot of mobs in the zone...
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I hadn't thought of that. Might be worth a try. I suspect we'd need 2-3 teams as a single giant monster is a fairly tough opponent. In the Hive they come in spawns.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
Well, the Dev's say 24, or 3 8-man teams.
Off the top of my head, things that "might" be womble spoons: (for those who don't know, the womble spoon is an item with seemingly no purpose required to defeat an invulnerable evil)
From the Eden Trial - resist inspirations dropped from opponents en-route
From the Hydra Trial - temp powers allowing much higher damage than normal powers allow
Neither TC or the cavern has an uberboss, although TV also has the precollected glowies in the reactor belts.
So, assuming that the Devs follow a pattern...
It's kind of interesting how everytime we do a Hami raid we always end up trying to find an easier way.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
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It's kind of interesting how everytime we do a Hami raid we always end up trying to find an easier way.
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But has anyone TRIED the ideas suggested?
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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It's kind of interesting how everytime we do a Hami raid we always end up trying to find an easier way.
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But has anyone TRIED the ideas suggested?
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A couple of times, yes.
There were several expedition to find the secrets of the GMs, doors, the factory. Nothing is there.
@Double
Double Flame 50 fire/devices
Double Shade 50 tri-form warshade
Double Light 50 dwarf-human peacebringer
Double Control 50 earth/rad
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It's kind of interesting how everytime we do a Hami raid we always end up trying to find an easier way.
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But has anyone TRIED the ideas suggested?
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You'd hope so, wouldn't you?
Anyone willing to trawl the US boards to see where they've already searched? And I remember an expedition heading out a few months ago, but can't remember who was leading it.
Need to check my oh-so-busy social calendar, but I'd be willing to go GM pounding next weekend on general principle, looking for the womble spoon is an added bonus. 
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It's kind of interesting how everytime we do a Hami raid we always end up trying to find an easier way.
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But has anyone TRIED the ideas suggested?
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A couple of times, yes.
There were several expedition to find the secrets of the GMs, doors, the factory. Nothing is there.
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IIRC the giant monster ones were clearing out the forests. Was there anything else? I'm quite happy to tank giant monsters with a tank supporting me. Or if there are enough tanks interested it would be a novel way to get my scrapper to 50.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
Heck, if we want to go womble-spooning, I'll bite. Almost an entire level 50 insp tray of awakens lasted roughly 90 seconds. there has to be an easier way.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
GoD picnic in the park then? I'll bring cookies...
Sunday, 12pm until we run out of awakens?
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GoD picnic in the park then? I'll bring cookies...
Sunday, 12pm until we run out of awakens?
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If you have a base hospital, going to your base and back in the Hive puts you in the same place. No awakens necessary !
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
This is probably stupid thing to say, but would the NPCs at tram stations with coloured rings be connected to Hami? (click them all, in an oder, etc) Or are they normal contavts that I've never visted? Please don't hit me
*would like to get a HO someday, and will say/do anything that might help*
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heh.. and I think I did pretty well regardless...
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Were I to put a raid farming team together, I would have Jersey(raid leader), Jiaozy(taunt team leader), Double(rad team leader), and Stagefright(PA drop leader).
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Nice to know my 'Hold Team Leadership' is "good enough" for mention..
nice to know I'm not good enough in your eyes to do my job... as I did in previous raids.
Or maybe I'm reading too much into it.. meh...
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Possibly.
Not mentioning a player is not the same as attacking or criticising that player, after all.
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nice stealth edit bridger :P.
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he's a ghost that walks :P he is everywhere....
*looks behind*
GAHHHHHHHH!!!! What the.. how you get there...