Things that make people leave PVP (social side)

“Passion, it lies in all of us, sleeping... waiting... and though unwanted... unbidden... it will stir... open its jaws and howl. It speaks to us... guides us... passion rules us all, and we obey. What other choice do we have? Passion is the source of our finest moments. The joy of love... the clarity of hatred... and the ecstasy of grief. It hurts sometimes more than we can bear. If we could live without passion maybe we'd know some kind of peace... but we would be hollow... Empty rooms shuttered and dank. Without passion we'd be truly dead.”

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“Passion, it lies in all of us, sleeping... waiting... and though unwanted... unbidden... it will stir... open its jaws and howl. It speaks to us... guides us... passion rules us all, and we obey. What other choice do we have? Passion is the source of our finest moments. The joy of love... the clarity of hatred... and the ecstasy of grief. It hurts sometimes more than we can bear. If we could live without passion maybe we'd know some kind of peace... but we would be hollow... Empty rooms shuttered and dank. Without passion we'd be truly dead.”

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One of my favorite episodes in any TV show, ever.

Anyway, props to Smooth_Operator. Being a nice person is not about having no bad impulses, it's about not acting on them. We're born with selfishness and cruelty, empathy is something we learn as we go.

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Anyway, props to Smooth_Operator. Being a nice person is not about having no bad impulses, it's about not acting on them. We're born with selfishness and cruelty, empathy is something we learn as we go.

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That is exactly how it goes but the problem lies how our morals differ from each others. What is wrong to you might not be wrong to me. What is wrong to the majority might still not be wrong to me. And just because you happen to belong to the majority will not give you right to tell me how to live my life and if you do you are being violent towards me and showing no respect towards my way of life. You cannot judge minorities and tell them their behaviour is "bad" without risking becoming the bully towards them.

If for me it's ok to be a bit ruthless when I am pursuing my goals and if I happen to hurt some one doing that does it automatically make my behaviour bad? Is my own good automatically at lower priority than the well being of others?

It really pisses me off to see all this double morality. It's so easy to raise yourself above others and start passing the word of god to others while at the same time you don't realise that you have created the devil and it's lurking right behind you.

If I jump on your body in a silly online video game does it make me "bad"? Sure you can experience some bad feelings but am I BAD? The amusement value of your discomfort overrides the moral standard that I have for "bad" so I disregard the small amount of guilt and just enjoy your humiliation.

For you it is bad. For me it is not. Who decides? Me? You? Majority? God? My answer is ME. Because I am the only one who knows if I am acting bad because I am the only one who knows the rules I live by.

I liked that "Passion" quote even though I don't know where it was from. Sounds something like the Devil would say.

What we are talking about here is PvP in a GAME! It's all about competition. Competition creates passion and passion leads to hell and maaan I can tell you that we are ALL GOING TO HELL!

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Violence, be that mental or physical, is in our nature.

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I don't think any of us can say that but I think the majority of us can say we haven't done something like that since we were kids. The reason? Most of us have the capacity to learn something all adults should, called self control and consideration, the basis of civilisation.

Sorry Smooth but your post highlights EXACTLY what is wrong with some attitudes in PvP zones and why PvP is avoided by the majority of players. I play CoH instead of a normal computer game for the community, everything you seem to advocate goes completely against that.

Doing something that you know a lot of people aren't going to like purely because it amuses you and because you can just shows a lack of consideration for those you're playing with.

If your idea of 'fun' is to make other people feel bad and you think we're inherently sadistic, you have a very narrow view of society.

Coming on and ruining someone elses play is not and never will be 'fun' in my book and I will never do something just because I can and it makes me feel good.

As for you being the only one who can decide what you view as bad? Nonsense. When you put your own enjoyment above others discomfort, that's bad.

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Coming on and ruining someone elses play is not and never will be 'fun' in my book and I will never do something just because I can and it makes me feel good.

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But it is in mine and it makes me feel good.

I don't think I have that narrow view of society. I have seen quite a lot of it. I just think that most it live in blind self denial.

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Coming on and ruining someone elses play is not and never will be 'fun' in my book and I will never do something just because I can and it makes me feel good.

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But it is in mine and it makes me feel good.

I don't think I have that narrow view of society. I have seen quite a lot of it. I just think that most it live in blind self denial.

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I do not live in denial at all, I just take no satisfaction from other peoples suffering and no matter how you argue otherwise, if you do, there is something wrong with you.

I actually find your statements abhorrent but there are always going to be a few who's own feelings and gratification come from provoking or upsetting others.

We can just be thankful that people with that attitude are in an extremely small minority and that there are procedures and laws in place for dealing with them.

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I do not live in denial at all, I just take no satisfaction from other peoples suffering and no matter how you argue otherwise, if you do, there is something wrong with you.

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Thats why I said blind self denial. In my opinion people fail to see that they are living in self denial. This is of course generalization and I don't say that you are living in it. You simply have a different view of things.

Yet again I have failed to explain my point. It is not like I run around ruining everyones day just because I can although rubbiing your loss in your face is fun. I have to use examples to make things more clear. Maybe I am using wrong ones? I will get better. Maybe next time I can make a valid point.

I'll try to say it one more time. These "why why why people are bad" threads are full of hypochricy and double standards and why people fail to see them is beyond me.

I don't care if people try to grief me in GAME and if that is how they get their kicks it's fine by me. It really is. We all have our subjective wievs what is fun and your fun is not nececcarily my fun and your fun is not any worse than my fun or other way around.

It is true that on some level, cruelty is within us. Selfishness is more apparent though. But on that same level, so is murder and [forced copulation]. There is something that is both a curse and a blessing to our species, and that is our ability to deny our basic impulses. This is the one thing why we consider ourselves more than just mere 'animals'. People have argued whether this is our greatest downfall or out greatest upliftance, and it could very well be both. Essentially you're saying that we're not above our own nature, and I have to agree with you there, but you must also understand that our very nature is changing/has changed. Just as most people now no longer feel the need to kill when they feel insecure (or is this only because of imposed laws? A big fish little fish deal, like insurance of sanity?)

I can appreciate and see the wisdom in coming to terms with the 'inner animal' (see also : the monkey within ), but the way that different people 'fracture' their connections to their selfish inner animal as they grow to (physical) maturity, varies a fair bit on a person-to-person scale. Probably has a lot to do with culture, too. Actually come to think of it, if I wasnt clobbered upside the skull with a heaving sackload of emotional problems earlier on, I would have turned out to be a completely selfish moron, im certain of it. I think the negative traits should be embraced, but just because we embrace the fact we are still just animals (just sentient ones), doesnt really excuse certain kinds of behaviour. People seldom have a sense of self-containment as it is, and then they go online to the place that im trying to chill out, and the annonymity gives them even less. Brilliant. Just what we needed in an already frustrating rock-paper-scissors section..

Whilst im just sounding really pompous and pacing around in circles with this, I have a point to make, im sure of it. Heh. The thing is, whilst you can validate behaviour and attribute it to the real human nature, there are very few cases human will cannot change that. Im a firm believer of human will, y'see. Nothing is forcing you to live like an ape trapped in a humans body, but thats personal choice, right? Right. So whilst this all explains why you'll get some kid in a PVP zone finding himself overstimulated and prone to bouts of beating his chest, bragging about the size of his meat, then laughing like we're the crazy ones... this still doesnt quite explain why when the worst of it happens (or used to happen), people would sooner support the dude who was causing a racket and hounding people, than just simply tell him to shut the hell up.

So whats the deal? Is this just a case of PVP'ers quietly enjoying the moron like its a one-monkey zoo, or is there some kind of project mayhem (Fight Club) going on here, that you dont talk about?
I doubt it has to do with personal philosophy.

The first rule of PvP is, you do not talk about PvP...

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The first rule of PvP is, you do not talk about PvP...

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Or to be more accurate :
The first rule of grief-club, is you do not talk about grief-club...

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this still doesnt quite explain why when the worst of it happens (or used to happen), people would sooner support the dude who was causing a racket and hounding someone constantly, than just simply tell him to [censored].

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That would be the other and probably the bigger reason why some of us become bullies. Fear. We are too afraid to oppose The Loud Guy. It is easier to agree than to form your own ideas and stand behind them. If I'm too lazy to do those The Loud Guy might pick me as hes new target next. So its safer to stand behind him and kiss [censored]. This doesn't give very nice picture of us as humans. Sadistic, selfish, brutal and now lazy cowards too.

We have a will yes and thats a great thing. I am firm believer of a human will too and as such it is really sad to see how few of us actually use it.

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We have a will yes and thats a great thing. I am firm believer of a human will too and as such it is really sad to see how few of us actually use it.


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Bleh, agreed.

I guess thats why I always ended up being sucked into every damned arguement I come across. I have this tendancy to see the loud guy, and try to get them to pipe down. So, maybe all the PVP arguements upon me were my fault? Yeah, maybe. Im quite a bit different in real-life, situations depending, but at least in-game, this is my chill out time, and if something is annoying me, im going to try change it. Its a futile exercise that seems to always lead in the opposite direction I want it to, but meh, what can a guy do?

Y'see, this is the main problem with people giving intelligent responses, the conclusions never feel good enough. Where are my exploding watermelons, confetti hoses and the ninja cabaret? Life can be such a [dog]
*sulk*

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What we are talking about here is PvP in a GAME! It's all about competition. Competition creates passion and passion leads to hell and maaan I can tell you that we are ALL GOING TO HELL!

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There's different kinds of passion, you know - some good, some bad

Smooth, if you were an outsider to a situation where the bully could change, would you still tell the victim to suck it up?

Tough hides are great (not the Invuln power ), and I agree that everyone should try to be confindent enough in themselves that nothing anyone else says will bother them; but only a small minority of people can do this. Confindence is hard to get these days, due to the media/general opinion etc. Heck, even people who conform to every "perfect" stereotype out there get slack for it. Just look at Halle Berry, she's beautiful, rich, she does have some talent, intelligent, and she's even part of a "minority" being mixed race; however, I can name ten or so people (myself included) who can't stand the woman because of her attitude.

Some bullies can and do change. I'm not confindent at all, and my school days proved to be incredibly painful for me...and I let this show. Couple of years ago, I met one of my bullies...and she said sorry. No provocation from me, just a sincere apology. I couldn't forgive her for what she did to me, but I have a lot of respect for her now, as she realised she'd hurt me, and did what she could to make it up to me.

If I'd sucked it up and ignored all the insults, I might never have received the apology and her words/actions may have haunted me for the rest of my life. There have been multiple horror stories in the newspapers of kids and adults who've bottled up their feelings for so long, that they finally crack and do something terrible.

Saying that though, I don't believe violence is in everyone's nature. You might want to smack someone, but stopping yourself from going through with it shows you're not a violent person. I've punched walls, pillows, doors (broke my middle finger once)...but never a person. Does that mean I have violent tendencies towards inanimate objects?

Hurting someone inadvertantly doesn't make you a bully.
Going out of your way to upset someone, does.

Ah Ethics, it always boils down to this subject.

Is it the action itself that is wrong, or is it the outcome of the action which is wrong?

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Just look at Halle Berry, she's beautiful, rich, she does have some talent, intelligent, and she's even part of a "minority" being mixed race; however, I can name ten or so people (myself included) who can't stand the woman because of Catwoman.

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Edited for clarity

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Ah Ethics, it always boils down to this subject.

Is it the action itself that is wrong, or is it the outcome of the action which is wrong?

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It's the action itself. I would not blame someone for an unexpextedly poor outcome if their action itself was just.

Speaking of ethics, moral relativism sucks because it negates your ability to consider yourself right which to me makes your actions arbitrary.

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Ah Ethics, it always boils down to this subject.

Is it the action itself that is wrong, or is it the outcome of the action which is wrong?

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It's the action itself. I would not blame someone for an unexpextedly poor outcome if their action itself was just.

Speaking of ethics, moral relativism sucks because it negates your ability to consider yourself right which to me makes your actions arbitrary.

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Damn right- now i'm in ethics overload had my philosophy exam today, I'm spent!

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Ah Ethics, it always boils down to this subject.

Is it the action itself that is wrong, or is it the outcome of the action which is wrong?

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It's the action itself. I would not blame someone for an unexpextedly poor outcome if their action itself was just.

Speaking of ethics, moral relativism sucks because it negates your ability to consider yourself right which to me makes your actions arbitrary.

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A Deontological approch to Ethics then.

I'm partial to Situation Ethics myself, although Kant does have some appeal.

What were we talking about?

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Ah Ethics, it always boils down to this subject.

Is it the action itself that is wrong, or is it the outcome of the action which is wrong?

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It's the action itself. I would not blame someone for an unexpextedly poor outcome if their action itself was just.

Speaking of ethics, moral relativism sucks because it negates your ability to consider yourself right which to me makes your actions arbitrary.

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A Deontological approch to Ethics then.

I'm partial to Situation Ethics myself, although Kant does have some appeal.

What were we talking about?

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Teh ganking!!!111!

That's funny Kinslayer, because I remember exactly what went on in one of those conversations.

What started as IC banter was turned into an OOC rant by yourself on how Heroes and Villains should treat each other with respect and then spiralled down into how any comment on another character was basically bullying. Then you threatened to petition everyone involved, no matter what they were saying.

Heroes and Villains do NOT like each other and IC remarks about the other or OOC remarks about dubious tactics are perfectly reasonable self-expressions within the context of the game.

OOC slander is not. There is a BIG difference and it's remarkably easy to tell most of the time.

Thing is though, misunderstandings happen, and even decent people can get ratty as hell. Some guy was teleporting my only teammate out of our base two nights ago, so in return, I tele-droned him, then said why I did it. It was supposed to essentially be an in-character gesture. A show of force if you will, "if you do that, i'll do this", to try keep things a little calmer (because my teammate was getting a bit fired up about it.) Naturally, the reaction to my teledroning was frustration, anger, an arguement in tells, then me putting him on ignore as it went too far. Later on, another villain asked me to remove him from my ignore list, he was -going- to apologise but I cut him off and basically said : "[dung] happens."

Its hard to put into words, but in most cases its easier than you think to tell apart those who just lost their temper, and those who are out to make your PVP experience an annoying misery.

If u teledroned me because i was teleporting ur mate out of base i would call a couple of kin friends to safely tp u and ur friend to the nastiest mobs around Its just pvp, and sooo fun

Before I go on lets clarify one thing. To me real life and internet life are totally different things. In here you can be as strong as you want and create how ever amazing image of yourself you want. To me people here don't carry much weight. I like to think all of you as some imaginary blobs that spurt lines random text. Some of it I find intresting some of it I just disregard. And when I close my computer you all cease to exist. Considering this my answers to real life scenario and one in the internet will probably have two different answers.

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Smooth, if you were an outsider to a situation where the bully could change, would you still tell the victim to suck it up?

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But to your question... No I would never tell him to "suck it up". But theres different kinds of "sucking". I would never give an advice to anyone to surrender but it is important to recognice the fights you can and cannot win. It is futile to try to explain some 12 old kid (or to me) that what he is doing is griefing. The chances that you can change that behaviour are next to zero. Of course if you want to try to change that I will bow to your direction but don't come here crying if it's not working the way you planned.

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Saying that though, I don't believe violence is in everyone's nature. You might want to smack someone, but stopping yourself from going through with it shows you're not a violent person. I've punched walls, pillows, doors (broke my middle finger once)...but never a person. Does that mean I have violent tendencies towards inanimate objects?

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Don't you see? You said it yourself. It IS in our nature to WANT to act on our raw impulses. That is our nature. The so called "monkey within" but we grow in a society that sets limits to these impulses so that the community as whole could work. We have a will and we usually use that to control the monkey but as soon as the limits of the community starts to fade the monkey starts to raise its head. Those limits are pretty vague in the internet.

We as humans are torn between individuality and social beings. We take the everyday rules from the world around us and we have a great need to belong to a group but we still feel the urge to stand out as individuals. Easiest way to spread out the gospel of your individuality is to become The Loud Guy. Many times The Loud Guy doesn't realize that what he is doing is actually fear of not belonging. When The Loud Guy at some point finds out what hes place in the society he usually calms down.

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Confindence is hard to get these days, due to the media/general opinion etc

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And to that I can only say that I agree and that it is really sad. But is it my duty to hand out extra spines? I might help my friends but some weird blobs in my computer? Nah. [censored] it and suck it up.

I respect your opinion, though it doesn't make sense to me. We may be faceless, but we're not emotionless - the majority of people here deserve as much respect (not the same thing as friendship) as the people you meet in real life. That's the way I feel at least.

If someone comes to the forums, obviously in distress/upset, the last thing they're likely to want to hear is "get over it and get on with your life". You don't have to molly coddle them, and tell them everything's going to be alright - but a little empathy can't go amiss. Sometimes it's a no-win situation, and the person in question will turn 'round and berate you for pitying him/her, but the other times, a friendly word makes all the difference. Not actually referring to the OP here, just people in general.

I think (correct me if I'm wrong) you're trying to tell these people to be the bigger man, and not let the idiots get to them - which is well and good, but if phrased incorrectly, such as "handing out spines" isn't going to make anyone look good. We might not exist to you, but we do exist. If this thread had taken place on TS, would you feel differently? I can't believe you're a bad person, and it seems a little strange to me that someone who doesn't acknowledge strangers' existances would choose to play an MMO. But, it's your choice, your views and I can't argue them .

No, it's not your duty to hand out spines to everyone you meet; even if it were, you wouldn't get very far. You can't give someone confidence, they have to find/earn it themselves. However, you can contribute to it by not referring to them as spineless individuals. And if you don't want to, that's fine. No one (except possibly counsellors) wants to go around fixing everyone's problems for them - even if they're a close friend. In those cases though, it's probably best to just keep out of it. Giving someone advice and then stating you don't actually care about them, is confusing and may do more harm than good.

As for everyone having violent tendencies, I agree with you if it's phrased in that exact way - but saying everyone is violent is wrong. Florence Nightingale probably wanted to slap some of her patients, but the fact that she restrained herself proves she's not a violent person. As we're all playing a game where fighting plays a huge role, it's safe to say that none of us are adverse to slapping something around a bit - but we understand that you can't go around doing that in real life shows we're (partially) sane, respectful of others and more importantly, restrained. If every Tom, Dick and Harry who play computer games decided to immitate the game at school/work/the pub, not only would Jack Thompson be skipping among the daisies, but there'd be no hope left for human kind. It's being able to tell the difference between right and wrong, and stop yourself from shooting little Jimmy in the back, that matters - not whether or not you considered shooting little Jimmy in the back (unless you're mentally unstable).

I know I come across as a patronising, counselling little so-and-so a lot of the time, but I genuinely want to try and help people - whether they're faceless or not. I understand that that's not everyone's cup of tea...and there's nothing I can, nor would, do to try and change that. You seem to have a lot of confidence, and I admire you for it - but please try to accept (you don't have to like the idea at all) that not everyone does; sometimes all they want is a metaphorical hug, not a lecture on how they're being wimpish .