Things that make people leave PVP (social side)

Has it occured to anyone that perhaps the people that do leave because of smacktalk etc, should leave PvP? It's obviously not for everyone and maybe for those people it's best to stay out. I think we can all agree that PvP has an ugly side to it and that probably wont change.

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The reason why PVP zones are often so full of idiots, is because half of the time, people who arent on the recieving end seem to be egging them on, encouraging them, and at worst supporting them directly. People say PVP will always be like this, but I have to ask why that is? Is it because of a lack of constant moderation that is too costly to implement? Is it because PVP attracts those kinds or brings out the worst in otherwise normal people? Or is because those kinds of people seem to regularly visit PVP and support those kinds of underhanded tactics, effectively giving a show of hands to others that "Dont worry folks, its a PVP zone, you can act like a jerk if you want to!".

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Now if I was on the receiving end of something like this I'd probably leave that day. If it happened everyday I'd probably stop coming back. You could say grow a spine (Just saying in general) but in all honesty I'd rather prefer to fill my game time with something more fun, in which case PvP wouldn't be for me either. So I hope i wasn't being to cynical with my earlier statement. We all just have different levels of tolerance.

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...but I genuinely want to try and help people - whether they're faceless or not...

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And I respect you for that. World needs people like you no doubt about it but still... thats not me and I don't feel any need to act that way or show empathy even if I have it. I'm perfectly happy being the selfish little ******* that I am and I don't feel even remotely guilty laughing at your misfortune if you happen to have some.

I do really really hope that world could be a little better place for all of us, but the change will have to start from me. For now I'm consentrating to make MY world better place to be and because I am a small minded man there is not room for everyone. Maybe I will still grow and some day I will be a bigger man and I can include everyon in my world... maybe but it's not today.

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I think (correct me if I'm wrong) you're trying to tell these people to be the bigger man, and not let the idiots get to them - which is well and good, but if phrased incorrectly, such as "handing out spines" isn't going to make anyone look good. We might not exist to you, but we do exist. If this thread had taken place on TS, would you feel differently? I can't believe you're a bad person, and it seems a little strange to me that someone who doesn't acknowledge strangers' existances would choose to play an MMO. But, it's your choice, your views and I can't argue them

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Yes thats what I am telling and what comes to my phrasing... well I'm not here to look good or to ask your approval. I used that phrase because it happened to sound funny to me at the moment.

I know you exist (or shall we get philosophical and ask that do you exist if I am not there to observe you or maybe I should run a Turning test to find out if you all are just some gigantic internet AI?!!?) but as I said before I don't have room for everyone. This thread could have never taken place in TS because English is not my native language and my spoken English is somewhat poorer but no I wouldn't feel any different. It still wouldn't change the fact that you are all blobs.

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It's being able to tell the difference between right and wrong, and stop yourself from shooting little Jimmy in the back, that matters - not whether or not you considered shooting little Jimmy in the back (unless you're mentally unstable).

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Dum dum dum... and around we go. Right and wrong? Who decides? Whos "Right" is The Righ Way? You or you as part of majority cannot create rules for me. You can how ever influence my thoughts and maybe I take your rules in consideration when I create the rule set that I live by.

Second. I don't like the mentally unstability reference. Who decides where lies the thin line of sanity and insanity? Majority? Well many of us still seem to think that homosexuality is a mental thing and can be cured by psychiatry or some infernal plan from satan to corrupt human kind from where you can only safe by joining a church. Individuals? Not much better seeing we invented psychiatry and religions.

People can get hurt by comments that directly/indirectly target things that are said online.(Does Gandrel's Loc mean he's actually in my basement? Is he stalking me? That could be classed as smacktalk already. Extreme example, but still valid.)

If there's an anorexic person playing and I say his/her character looks thin, am I being abusive?

It's a difficult one, because I'm not abusing them, but I am hurting them. This is where a single PM can help and smooth out these difficulties.

If people are talking in 'smacktalk' over broadcast and someone takes offence at what I've said, no matter how IC it is, I will apologise and refrain from doing it, no matter if it is harmless IC banter.

Hence, I try and keep 'smacktalk' to the playground banter that it's based on. No direct insults, just inferring people's inability to compete.

I get far more upset, and am likely to leave PvP, if I find out I've accidentally insulted someone and they've slammed me on ignore already.

I'd far rather there was a bit of banter between the enemies than have gank squads abusing TP/Bases to cheat, because that will and did make me leave PvP for a long time.

Gah, no philosophy please! Can't stand the stuff.

For me, in general, right and wrong is very black and white. If such and such an action hurts person A, it's wrong. If something makes person A feel good about themselves, it's right. Yes, in real life there are an awful lot of grey areas, but that's delving into philosophy and psychology - and I'm leaving that to Freud and Jung. However, ingame, we've got rules in plain English/French/German - so it's far easier to tell what is right and what isn't.

As for the mentally unstable bit - that was only added in to stop people from saying, "oh but if so-and-so thought this, it's different from this other person thinking the same thing 'cause they're not right in the head". It backfired a bit though, as you've shown . I meant no offence with the comment, with very good reason.

It's quite clear you're not a selfish [censored], as you are actually trying to help - even if you don't want to admit you are .

I'd say we very much have a community here but the community is really the people behind the characters, not the characters themselves. Jumping on your dead body in a PvP zone doesn't mean that I'd jump over your dead body in real life or even that I'd gloat at your faceplanting in PvE. PvP is at least to me a game within game. Normally I enjoy cooperating with others and making friends, in PvP I want to win the same people and enjoy them losing. I may even rub it in but the underlying assumption is that the gloating is not really hurting the real people. Frankly, I don't think that's an unreasonable assumption. If I found out someone got seriously upset about something I said in PvP, I'd probably feel sorry but I'd also think they were a bit silly and overly sensitive and should get a grip because it IS just a game. If it's so real to someone, why would they go to a PvP zone to try to hack people to pieces with their sword or whatever? Scary.

Example: I like to play cards and board games with my RL friends. We tend to brag outrageously and mock each other a lot. This is generally in very good spirit and done for a laugh but that doesn't mean the loser doesn't occasionally get a bit annoyed. We're very competitive and like winning, and part of the thrill of winning is someone else losing. That's a fact. Going all noble about it would, at least to me, considerably lessen the enjoyment. But we're also generally nice people who like each other a lot and wouldn't hurt each other in real life, so the game is a safe environment where we get to indulge our less than virtuous side without anyone getting hurt for real. It's fun and also therapeutical. That's how I view the difference between PvE and PvP. PvE is a virtual community, PvP is the virtual community playing a game.

That said I don't by any means support genuinely hurtful things aimed at the person behind the character. But then I'd think those would usually be petitionable.

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Frankly, I don't think that's an unreasonable assumption. If I found out someone got seriously upset about something I said in PvP, I'd probably feel sorry but I'd also think they were a bit silly and overly sensitive and should get a grip because it IS just a game

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Pet peeve:

Being overly sensitive is not just being a whiny, bad loser. It's a mental problem; quite a serious one if not treated properly.

True, people don't go around advertising that they are sensitive, and you're unlikely to know unless you know the person intimately. Also, it can be faked quite easily for attention. However, telling/asking/thinking such a person should "get a grip" is painful. It's akin to saying to someone in a wheelchair, "stop moaning and get up". It's scary that people still don't understand this, but I'm not surprised - as it's generally overlooked by professionals.

Yeah, ok. But the thing is, it's just not reasonable to expect people to adjust their behaviour to extremities like that unless they know about it, and even then it's IMO a case of the minority needing to adjust, either by getting treatment, accepting that they're getting hurt or removing themselves from the situation where they're constantly getting hurt. I know people can't help feeling the way they feel so I didn't mean "get a grip" in that sense.

Education is always a good thing on that sort of thing. Hence a single PM can often sort out misunderstandings.

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It's quite clear you're not a selfish [censored], as you are actually trying to help - even if you don't want to admit you are

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You will NOT tell that to anyone!

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It's quite clear you're not a selfish [censored], as you are actually trying to help - even if you don't want to admit you are

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You will NOT tell that to anyone!

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Yes'um. *salutes*

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It's quite clear you're not a selfish [censored], as you are actually trying to help - even if you don't want to admit you are

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You will NOT tell that to anyone!

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*stores this under B for Blackmail*

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Has it occured to anyone that perhaps the people that do leave because of smacktalk etc, should leave PvP? It's obviously not for everyone and maybe for those people it's best to stay out.


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Thats just the thing, where was it written that the darker half of the smacktalk HAS to be in PVP? Rules are enforced throughout the entire game, so where on earth did people get the impression that they going that far is A-okay in PVP? I bet if you'd ask a bunch of PVP'ers, about what they thought the rules were, you'd get a whole lot of different answers. Despite the strange assumation that its against the rules to interrupt duels by some, or that tele-droning or base-teleporting is a bannable offense, a load of them say that swearing and being completely obnoxious is well within the rules.

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If u teledroned me because i was teleporting ur mate out of base i would call a couple of kin friends to safely tp u and ur friend to the nastiest mobs around Its just pvp, and sooo fun

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So, essentially you'd be getting revenge on someone for getting revenge on you? Base teleporting and teledroning is a debtless practice, but you'd seriously gank someone with a sodding mob, and slow them? Valid tactic or not, I think thats pretty low. Dont even bother to try putting teledroning on par with telemobbing (with a ganksquad to keep them there), because there is one not-so-subtle difference, and that is a dose of outdoor-grade debt. Harmless but annoying practice begets harmless but annoying practice (baseTP -> droneTP), but debt-giving ganksquads only beget debt-giving ganksquads. Is it worth it, considering villains max at 40 right now, and with this example, im a Grav/FF controller (wormhole, plus TPresistant forcefields). Even if you succeeded in doing it, all you would have achieved is sending the message : "Dont fight back on equal terms, or we'll summon the debt mafia." If people start seriously doing this, PVP will die.

Explain to me, why is it that people go into a frothing, vitriolic tantrum when they get droned, even if they've been sat outside the enemy base repeatedly teleporting people who leave the hospital? Its easy to overlook your own little evils and pretend that the enemy is the only one using annoying tactics, but to bring debt into the equasion is a seriously bad move in my opinion.

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Has it occured to anyone that perhaps the people that do leave because of smacktalk etc, should leave PvP? It's obviously not for everyone and maybe for those people it's best to stay out.


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Thats just the thing, where was it written that the darker half of the smacktalk HAS to be in PVP? Rules are enforced throughout the entire game, so where on earth did people get the impression that they going that far is A-okay in PVP? I bet if you'd ask a bunch of PVP'ers, about what they thought the rules were, you'd get a whole lot of different answers. Despite the strange assumation that its against the rules to interrupt duels by some, or that tele-droning or base-teleporting is a bannable offense, a load of them say that swearing and being completely obnoxious is well within the rules.


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It doesn't say that anywhere but we don't live in a perfect world either. I'd wish it could be all in good spirits but we're all human being and we're all different.

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It doesn't say that anywhere but we don't live in a perfect world either. I'd wish it could be all in good spirits but we're all human being and we're all different.


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If we were to attribute everything to simply not living in a perfect world, and the fact that in a very base level, human beings are just plain mean, and then leave it at that, nothing would ever change. Whilst what you say is true, we could resolve and end an aweful lot of discussions and lines of thought with "This isnt a perfect world, and people are mean". The point I was raising is that people have this false belief that jerkish behaviour is completely overlooked in the PVP zones, to the point of the normal rules having no effect. That little pop-up that reminds you about being in a PVP zone could also remind them that the rules still apply? Blegh, thats too much like overkill. Perhaps they should add a few more lines to the PVP zone entrance dudes, to tell them if they're naughty, santa wont give them any presents Then again the villains wouldnt mind, they stole a bunch of them last christmas..

And yes, im perfectly aware that nothing will come of this topic, even if we come up with some killer suggestions. Imperfect world etc etc.

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And yes, im perfectly aware that nothing will come of this topic, even if we come up with some killer suggestions. Imperfect world etc etc.

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Beats talking about I7 & Kittens though

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Beats talking about I7 & Kittens though

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I dont bother, I7 is just a plot by the puppies to strategically reduce the kitten force.
*wearing tinfoil cap*

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If we were to attribute everything to simply not living in a perfect world, and the fact that in a very base level, human beings are just plain mean, and then leave it at that, nothing would ever change. Whilst what you say is true, we could resolve and end an aweful lot of discussions and lines of thought with "This isnt a perfect world, and people are mean". The point I was raising is that people have this false belief that jerkish behaviour is completely overlooked in the PVP zones, to the point of the normal rules having no effect. That little pop-up that reminds you about being in a PVP zone could also remind them that the rules still apply? Blegh, thats too much like overkill. Perhaps they should add a few more lines to the PVP zone entrance dudes, to tell them if they're naughty, santa wont give them any presents Then again the villains wouldnt mind, they stole a bunch of them last christmas..

And yes, im perfectly aware that nothing will come of this topic, even if we come up with some killer suggestions. Imperfect world etc etc.

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Point made and I agree with ya there. Maybe I did put it in simple terms but I am supposed to be working

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Point made and I agree with ya there. Maybe I did put it in simple terms but I am supposed to be working

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Hwch-tssh, shovel those coals, mule!

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Point made and I agree with ya there. Maybe I did put it in simple terms but I am supposed to be working

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Hwch-tssh, shovel those coals, mule!

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oooh, harder!

Debt apart it's perfectly comparable, yes. Besides, devs have said over and over it's not griefing (although i particularly disagree, but they set the rules, not me), and despite of the amount of requests, debt has not been taken from the zones. So if it can be done, and what is more, it has been defended by devs, what's so bad doing it?

About avenging an avange, i think its perfectly done, too. U teledrone someone as a 'mess with me/my mates and u'll get this' message. It's just fair if the other replies.

And as i said, it's all just good fun . The best two macro-battles that ive had started like that actually people calling their mates and contacts to help and then the other group doing the same, then those friends calling their friends, and so on... best fun i've ever had in the zones by far (and now i know i could call those peeps i fought against if i need help, lol)

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Debt apart it's perfectly comparable, yes.

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Teleporting out of the base (considered safezone) :
Annoying, but valid tactic. The teleport victim loses nothing but patience.

Teleporting into a basedrone (considered safezone, which getting close to is a bad idea) :
Annoying but valid tactic, especially if there are forces camping outside the base that dont thin out, making engagement impossible. A very good tactic against people who teleport people out, and an exceptionally good tactic against people who teleport people out of the hospital (or the hospital leavers). Victim loses nothing but patience.

Teleporting into a mob of enemies and mezzing/slowing, and leaving the mob to finish them deliberately (merely valid tactic, you gain nothing unless you're solo) :
Solo squishies who are incapable of outputting much damage gain the ability to remove threats, threats that they are likely to have less hassle with than after when they mobbed them. Good for pursuers but not much else. Victim gains a full helping of outdoor debt, and that is in a single mobbing incident. Lower level characters suffer less but are far more prone to being TP'ed, higher level characters seem more likely to resist/evade the effects, but have higher debt per mob-death. Not everyone goes into the game to grind for 3+ hours a day, and given that levelling can be pretty slow, deliberately getting another player into debt for no reason other than 'revenge against revenge where we were being a-holes' is just a jerk tactic. Seriously. Hospital teleporting, and if anyone does anything about it you'll run and cry to all your mates and come and throw bricks through our windows? Because thats what it comes down to really.
"Oh noes, a minor setback in response to our ganking! Call all friends and get them debt!"

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About avenging an avange, i think its perfectly done, too. U teledrone someone as a 'mess with me/my mates and u'll get this' message. It's just fair if the other replies.


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No its not a "mess with my mates and i'll mess with you", its a "if you gank us, we wont take it sitting down". If you want to be the first step in debt-wars and/or killing PVP, be my guest, its not like people are going to be able to stop you. After all, thats what this part of the convo is orbitting around, you want to be able to fight without actually having any resistance, right?

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And as i said, it's all just good fun .


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Deliberate debt isnt everyones idea of fun, pal. You still havent said what the screaming fuss is about teledroning, that makes you want to get debt involved.

damn straight - this is one of my favourite threads since i started forumdwelling - intelligent, adult discussion, some humour and a lovely diversion from seeing the same damn threads all the time.

This Capn' raises his rumglass to you all.

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Intelligent, adult discussion, some humour and a lovely diversion from seeing the same damn threads all the time.


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I guss that's down to the urbane, sophisticated and refined nature of the PvP community.

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I guess that's down to the urbane, sophisticated and refined nature of the forum community

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edited for accuracy

I think it was supposed to be sarcasm? xP
*looks at the comp clock ticking to 2:30am, and decides to get more chocolate+caffiene*