Who else HATES masterminds?
By
Alexandria2000,
Posted on: 2009-07-26 01:19 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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You played with bad Masterminds. People have always thought the AT boils down to "attack my target" and do nothing.
For the record, a Brute that cannot hold aggro is just as bad.
A Dominator that uses AoE Immobilizes before a stack is just as bad.
There are other AT's that cause team chaos. Do you hate them equally? It's not the AT, it's the person at the keys that you should "hate".
"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho
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Hint: the fastest way to steamroll missions is to not invite brutes.
[/ QUOTE ]Unless that Brute is JoJo the Bunny.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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I thought most forum goers were min/max guys like myself trying to find the fastest way to steamroll missions, but most of the responses have been "cry moar", so maybe that isn't the case...
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I'll say it, I'm callin' you on your 'min/max guy' assertion. I know (and am) a min/max guy. You sir, are no min/max guy. Min/maxers know the deal. What Cavatina said is absolutely true. The most efficient teams, often don't even have any brutes or stalkers in them unless they're fallout/vengeance fodder. As my preferred AT, I realize that so I'm more than willing to adapt to the team's strengths. Apparently, you are not. Your first post came off as a passive-aggressive whine looking for validation. Then you retreat when people call you on your ignorance (since really, that's what it is. You obviously have no idea of how MMs work). Though it's obvious what your favorite breakfast food is (waffle).
@Remianen / @Remianen Too
Sig by RPVisions
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Hint: the fastest way to steamroll missions is to not invite brutes.
Corrupters, Dominators, and masterminds all outperform you due to having controls and buffs. Brutes are absolutely useless in comparison.
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I'm assuming that this is hyperbole. If not, then this is very poor judgement and should be taken this with a grain of salt. Brutes are not needed at all for general teaming. But to say they are absolutely useless by comparson is being disingenuous. Brutes have their uses, as do every other AT in this game.
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It was mostly hyperbole. My point mostly was that.
Can brutes be great team members? Yes.
Can a great team be absolutely 100% brute-free? Yes.
Want comedy and lighthearted action? Between levels 1-14? Try Nuclear in 90 - The Fusionette Task Force!
Arc ID 58363!
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Yeah, not too sure where to post this, but it's going here.
Me as brute: *gathers up nice hoard of enemies (EDIT: NOT HERDING, MAKING SURE THE MOB IS ALL WITHIN MELEE RANGE FOR EVERYONE TO USE THEIR AoEs!) for a big footstomp*
Mastermind: "Attack, my minions!"
Mob: *goes flying 5 million feet in every direction possible*
Me as brute: ">
"
Every single time I team with a MM this scenario happens and I just don't feel like playing anymore. Seriously, I can probably down a bunch of insps and solo 3 more mobs in the time it takes them to track down all the enemies they scattered. Bots MMs are especially bad at this, and 90% of the MMs have to be bots for some reason. And then because they aren't paying attention to who their minions are attacking, they end up aggroing another group. Does anyone else feel my mastermind pain?
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bummer for you - that's why I play heroes.
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The OP hates MMs.
Because only MMs have knocback in CoV.
Oh, wait...
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Additionally, ALL MMs have knockback.
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Darn them crazy knock-backin' zombies. I think the Lich is the worst offender. Off with his head! 
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I most sincerely doubt he'd notice. I mean, he's already dead. That'd just mildly inconvenience him, at best!
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Plus it can add to any Fear effects, kinda like an extra slot for the power 
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The OP hates MMs.
Because only MMs have knocback in CoV.
Oh, wait...
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Additionally, ALL MMs have knockback.
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Darn them crazy knock-backin' zombies. I think the Lich is the worst offender. Off with his head!
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I most sincerely doubt he'd notice. I mean, he's already dead. That'd just mildly inconvenience him, at best!
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Plus it can add to any Fear effects, kinda like an extra slot for the power
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It is hard to aim your fear attack when head os rolling on the ground.
This is why I play Bots...metal necks help to deter decapitation. Sure knockback can be a problem, but that is what Detonate is for.
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Hint: the fastest way to steamroll missions is to not invite brutes.
Corrupters, Dominators, and masterminds all outperform you due to having controls and buffs. Brutes are absolutely useless in comparison.
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I'm assuming that this is hyperbole. If not, then this is very poor judgement and should be taken this with a grain of salt. Brutes are not needed at all for general teaming. But to say they are absolutely useless by comparson is being disingenuous. Brutes have their uses, as do every other AT in this game.
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It was mostly hyperbole. My point mostly was that.
Can brutes be great team members? Yes.
Can a great team be absolutely 100% brute-free? Yes.
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A great team can be 100% free of any given class. If we really want to go there, every class but Defenders is superfluous for maximally-effective steamrolling. :P
More seriously, I have a Brute with Fire Melee. I have some Range enhancements in Fire Breath. Hitting a whole eight-man spawn at full Fury? You better believe I steamroll.
I know I said I was done with the topic, but I thought of something after I posted that. I just find it funny that about a year ago when I was new to brutes I posted a somewhat similar topic in the brute forum, and every single response was "oh yes, I know the feeling" or "yep, you got a hold of some really bad MMs". I think by posting it here I simply ticked off a bunch of MM players. :P
So once again, I apologize for back tracking half way through and turning the topic into a mess that no one understands. I did try to stir up trouble at first, and that's a bad idea on any forum. Every AT has a role that can help steamroll missions, and now I'm going off to learn the ways of masterminding to better myself as a player.
Ok, NOW I'm leaving this topic. :P
Ok so you piss people off for you first few posts, and use truly uneducated reasoning and aggression towards MMs. Now you come back saying people in this form cannot handle what your saying.
From reading this people understood you very well throughout this thread you just cannot accept or rightfully ignore some of the rebuttals they have said to you. So once they saw that and you continue on arrogance they gave it back to you.
So from a player that started with MMs and loves them you should really try to have an actual excuse to have a "hate" for something...but since you don't there is the door, and I hope I do not team with you anytime soon in Triumph.
considering 95% or more of this game is soloable by most ATs and Combinations or powersets, it's hard to argue that anyone is valuable to any team... so the whole "we don't need MM's... we don't need Brutes.. etc" thing is pretty silly from that perspective.
1. AoE melee toons are less effective if the mob's get splashed around from knockback. That's pretty simple to understand.
2. People who do knockback can't not knockback without just not using thier powers. Not using thier powers makes them less effective.
We have a paradox. Sorry, there's no solution here. (unless of course you bring along someone with an AoE immobalize that prevents knockback.
...
All that said, my personal expirience is most speed running teams have brutes, not MM's (YMMV)... probably more as a result of the set-up and movement time for a MM being to long then anything else.
I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.
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I know I said I was done with the topic, but I thought of something after I posted that. I just find it funny that about a year ago when I was new to brutes I posted a somewhat similar topic in the brute forum, and every single response was "oh yes, I know the feeling" or "yep, you got a hold of some really bad MMs". I think by posting it here I simply ticked off a bunch of MM players. :P
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Or, Y'now, you asked a much broader group than just the brute-centric players and got a different response.
Want comedy and lighthearted action? Between levels 1-14? Try Nuclear in 90 - The Fusionette Task Force!
Arc ID 58363!
Rather amusingly, and mostly for the record, I'd like to point out I'm really more of a Dominator or Brute kinda person. I only have the one MM, and steadfastly refuse to play another (though in the spirit of fairness and goodwill, I will attempt Demon Summoning just to get full knowledge on how that set works compared to others in my experience [Thugs to 30, Ninjas and Mercs to 20, Necromancy to 15, Bots to 50]) because quite frankly they bore me to tears when solo, and I only enjoy them on teams purely due to larger spawns to deal with (i16 may fix that).
Frankly, I can get just as much entertainment out of just playing something else, and I frequently do. But, it just irks me when people are inflexible in their playstyle and strategies, and can't adapt themselves to work with what they have (whether they're good players or not). :/ Especially when they make massive misconceptions and go off on needlessly aggressive rants and then claim they're being picked on later (and make it seem as if it's unwarranted).
Frankly, I don't mind having an MM on my team when playing a Brute. If they want to tank, fine. I'll go into Scrapper mode and find the hardest or most threatening target I can and rearrange it's face. Not a problem. If they want me to tank? I'll switch builds and play Tanker. That's half the darn fun for me - switching roles, and the flexibility I have to actually do that sort of thing.
It doesn't work near half as well on a Scrapper or Tanker for me.
Funny, I was going to start a thread that I dislike teaming with "whining Brutes"....
When I play my Merc/Storm, I hate teaming with "whiny Brutes". I knockback. yes. Get used to it! It's part of the game. And I don't need you to hold aggro for me.
Most Brutes are pretty over-rated anyway.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Yeah, not too sure where to post this, but it's going here.
Me as brute: *gathers up nice hoard of enemies (EDIT: NOT HERDING, MAKING SURE THE MOB IS ALL WITHIN MELEE RANGE FOR EVERYONE TO USE THEIR AoEs!) for a big footstomp*
Mastermind: "Attack, my minions!"
Mob: *goes flying 5 million feet in every direction possible*
Me as brute: ">"
Every single time I team with a MM this scenario happens and I just don't feel like playing anymore. Seriously, I can probably down a bunch of insps and solo 3 more mobs in the time it takes them to track down all the enemies they scattered. Bots MMs are especially bad at this, and 90% of the MMs have to be bots for some reason. And then because they aren't paying attention to who their minions are attacking, they end up aggroing another group. Does anyone else feel my mastermind pain?
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bummer for you - that's why I play heroes.
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But OMG, those Kheldians! 
53 Bots/FF/Mace Mastermind | 53 NRG/FF/Electricity Defender | 50 Time/Dual Pistols/Soul Defender | 50 Demons/FF/Mace Mastermind | 51 Necro/Dark/Soul Mastermind | 50 Thugs/Time/Mace Mastermind | 50 Ice/Ice/Arctic Tanker | 50 Plant/Rad/Earth Controller | 50 Illusion/Trick Arrow Controller | 50 Gravity/Force Field Controller
Yes, I like Force Fields.
Depending on the selections, MMs can bring Buffs/Debuffs/Heals/Tanking/DPS
It is a very strong AT and the only people that have a reason to shy away from them are those of you with older PCs that lag out in larger conflicts.
MMs have total positional control over minions if they choose to and positioning where your minions are can often dictate which powers they will execute.
In the scenarios the OP describes, better MMs will pause their minions briefly to allow the other AoEs to go off and clean up. Or, they might have enough AoE that the scattering is irrelevant and everything is going down anyways.
If your team's MM is scattering, then just focus on the Bosses/Lts, the MM will wipe the minions scattered or not and still contribute DPS to your targets too.
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Easy on there |
Originally Posted by dudeman1298
Well, I'm pretty much done with this thread since NO ONE seems to understand why almost the entire group getting scattered out of AoE range is a problem (that's not an exaggeration at all, literally every minion except two or three goes flying and runs away). Thanks for the responses, but I'm gonna let this thread die or become a joke thread like most on these forums. >_>
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Anyway, i know the problem, i have 5 MM's myself along with a nrg blaster and defender.
But as i do AE alot with my controller, 99% chance we get some form of knockback (kheldians), but using the AoE immobilize locks all mobs 100% in place and can let them spam away every bit of knockback there is.
Just have a dominator around, earth is very good on this, and once u got them close first spam the aoe immobilize and then let the MM do its thing.
edit.. freaking i just noticed this topic was already 6 pages long - i replied from page 3.
Anyway in short, controllers and dominators are your friend, love em, hug em and let them be faster then those knockback frea.. players.
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
Why are you inviting all the mobs to congregate in an open area? Learn what corners are for.
And why are you only teaming with MMs? Funny how a well timed Immob does the trick in ROOTING mobs in place.
EDIT: Synergy beat me to it, but with out the sardonic tones.
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Originally Posted by ArcticFahx
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TY.
<---bots/dark, and proud of it.
There's a reason I tend to solo, people I run into like this....
Currently playing:
The Domestic: Broom/WP
Shadowhex: Dark Control/Dark Affinity
Defenestration Lass: Grav/Kin
"See, this is what happens when you have to shove all this stuff into your pockets: it's easy to misplace a suborbital warhead." -Arcanaville, on how crowded our power trays are getting lately
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Originally Posted by Alexandria2000
TY.
<---bots/dark, and proud of it. There's a reason I tend to solo, people I run into like this.... |
I have a Bot/dark also. I call that team enough. Don't need any scavs taking my XP unless they are paying me to PL and watch the mightiness.
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Well guess what? I am a good MM player AND I know full well how to play with brutes and other melee based ATs.|
Originally Posted by dudeman1298
Eh, I guess herd isn't the correct word to use, so sorry if I confused people. I just charge right into the middle of a mob and wait for them to all come within melee range and then start the AoEs.
And the problem is I have never seen a good MM. Honestly, how CAN they be good I guess is what I'm getting at? All they can do is attack or not attack, they have almost no control over what their pets do, and the pets like to knock the crap out of a mob and send them flying. The only good thing they do is heal and buff. |
Also since I maintain my agro and pet KB powers I tend to pick off mobs 1 by one rather than allow my pets off the leash.
As to your point I can agree with you that poor M players often cause more frustration than they really should.
All in all I'd recomend you pointing them to the Mastermind section of these forums for the infamous keybind command guide (which I use and love it) and once they learn how to play thier AT porperly they will no longer be nooblets and then become newbs...
On second thought screw it,just sign out and go play SF4 or something to pass the time till the noobs leave lol.(bare in mind this last comment is not to be taken literally.)
I have 3 level 43+ masterminds, merc/traps, bots/ff, and bots/storm.
Trust me, good players typically don't want MMs on their team for difficult content, and knockback is part of the reason. The other is just how annoying the pets can be, as well as the accidental agro.
Now that the fast way to level up is via AE farms, MMs, especially bots after the 32 upgrade, can be very difficult to deal with. The best way is to get someone with a -kb aoe root. If you can't then there will be issues.
It's really a load of bullcrap that they put so much kb in pet powers, there's really no need either. This is something where we should really petition the devs. If you want to keep kb, then have them reduce it to knockdown in pve.
Bots/FF MM here. I've never had any complaints about KB, then again not much survives their withering fire.
The OP needs to remember he's not the only person on the team, the mobs and aggro is not his alone just because he's got a cheap and cheerful version of Gauntlet.
You're always going to get a few MMs that don't know how to control or direct their pets properly but some of us actually know what we're doing.
To the OP, I'm sorry that you've teamed with ***** MMs. I personally love the Mastermind AT, and I've restrained my kneejerk "raargh! He not like my AT!" reaction to put this post together.
A good MM player will adjust his/her playstyle, dependant on what they're doing. I have a Bots/FF (my first 50 btw) and he's a master of KB, both intentional and non. When I'm on a team, I hang back, keep the bots in BG mode and buff the hell out of my team mates. I'll pick off stragglers, but I know how much Knockback my boys do, so I try to keep it down. I've also been on teams where they love to see the scatter power of my Bots. It depends on the team really. If I'm in a Stalker/Brute heavy team, I'll hang back. If it's primarily ranged, I let fly.
Similar with my Thugs/SS, I can toss enemies all over the playing field, but, on a melee-centric team, I refrain from Tornado, Gale and Hurricane, because it just angers most Brutes.
Seriously, if you're ever on Justice, give me a tell, global is @Bitter Hatred. I'll show you how a mastermind should be played, then hopefully you won't have such an awful taste for them.
EDIT: Wow, ***** is a blocked word? Really?
Current Main: Thudd. 36 SS/Invul Brute on Justice
50's - Bitter Hatred Bots/FF/Mu MM - Rogue Wyvern Arch/Elec/Elec Blaster - Stonewerk Stone/Stone/Stone Brute - GB Nasty Thugs/Storm/Lev MM
Power and Chaos!
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Hint: the fastest way to steamroll missions is to not invite brutes.
Corrupters, Dominators, and masterminds all outperform you due to having controls and buffs. Brutes are absolutely useless in comparison.
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I'm assuming that this is hyperbole. If not, then this is very poor judgement and should be taken this with a grain of salt. Brutes are not needed at all for general teaming. But to say they are absolutely useless by comparson is being disingenuous. Brutes have their uses, as do every other AT in this game.
@Quarktease
The Unofficial Official of Nothing Official
Proud member of Nites of Darkness/Shut Your Pie Hole