Who else HATES masterminds?
By
Alexandria2000,
Posted on: 2009-07-26 01:19 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
[ QUOTE ]
Calash has it in a nutshell:
you're not supposed to like who you team with villain side, just tolerate them long enough until you achieve your goals, then kiss them off.
Pish to you Brutus, I am done with thee, for now!!! 
[/ QUOTE ]
What's this...teeem...thing you speak of?
Is that like my minions? I wasn't aware of needing more...
:P
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In any case, I think you lost your credibility with masterminds already. In fact your suggestion of not using the drones is the worst solution for reducing knockback. The drones, are likely three or more levels below, reducing the effectiveness of knockback.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you misunderstand me. I'm not saying that a Robot MM shouldn't summon his bots because they might do knockback. I'm saying that MMs shouldn't summon their first tier pets in large groups because they get in the way of the other players.
[/ QUOTE ]
So decrease a MM's dps for another player's selfish needs?
another way to manage it I've found is secondaries like Trick arrow or dark that give you ways to herd everything as a bots MM and generally destroy 90% of the mob before knockback becomes a worry.
Want comedy and lighthearted action? Between levels 1-14? Try Nuclear in 90 - The Fusionette Task Force!
Arc ID 58363!
[ QUOTE ]
Well if you would just follow your instructions like all the other minions everything would work. After all, your just another pawn in the masterminds group.
There are times that I really believe that CoV was designed to cause friction between some of the ATs to preserve the mindset that you are evil and only working with these others to further your own plans.
Or to put it another way, balance by conflict.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have thought the same thing. Building domination and building a fury bar are just inviting disaster with old fashioned hero side bad scrapper syndrome. Corruptors and masterminds seem to cope well with each other, then you throw a stalker in there that does his assassin strike. The foes all seem to rush the mastminds and corruptors since the Stalkers shed aggro well and have no remorse for what happens to their teammates and no ability to grab a share of the aggro. I do like how the soldiers of arachnos seem to fill the gaps and help villains teams coalesce better.
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
I figured Villain ATs were meant to be able to take care of themselves, so you don't worry about your teammates and focus on the murder.
[ QUOTE ]
Calash has it in a nutshell:
you're not supposed to like who you team with villain side, just tolerate them long enough until you achieve your goals, then kiss them off.
Pish to you Brutus, I am done with thee, for now!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
Not like brutes are necessary at all anyhow.
Want comedy and lighthearted action? Between levels 1-14? Try Nuclear in 90 - The Fusionette Task Force!
Arc ID 58363!
I just find it ironic that the OP seems to be upset that MMs on his teams are making missions take "20 minutes longer". In my experience with pickup teams, usually the worst offender for making missions drag on is the Brute who insists on herding / leading every single action the team makes.
Which isn't to say that AE Baby MMs aren't a nightmare - it's a powerhouse AT but probably the worst disaster to screw up on either side of the game. Most other ATs just get themselves killed when they suck, but a crap MM can seriously louse up a team's day.
Iscariot's Guide to the Tri-Form Warshade, version 2.1
I'm sorry that math > your paranoid delusions, but them's the breaks -- Nethergoat
P.E.R.C. Rep for Liberty server
The OP hates MMs.
Because only MMs have knocback in CoV.
Oh, wait...
53 Bots/FF/Mace Mastermind | 53 NRG/FF/Electricity Defender | 50 Time/Dual Pistols/Soul Defender | 50 Demons/FF/Mace Mastermind | 51 Necro/Dark/Soul Mastermind | 50 Thugs/Time/Mace Mastermind | 50 Ice/Ice/Arctic Tanker | 50 Plant/Rad/Earth Controller | 50 Illusion/Trick Arrow Controller | 50 Gravity/Force Field Controller
Yes, I like Force Fields.
[ QUOTE ]
The OP hates MMs.
Because only MMs have knocback in CoV.
Oh, wait...
[/ QUOTE ]
Additionally, ALL MMs have knockback.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
|
[ QUOTE ]
Eh, I guess herd isn't the correct word to use, so sorry if I confused people. I just charge right into the middle of a mob and wait for them to all come within melee range and then start the AoEs.
And the problem is I have never seen a good MM. Honestly, how CAN they be good I guess is what I'm getting at? All they can do is attack or not attack, they have almost no control over what their pets do
[/ QUOTE ]
This is not at all true. A MM can get very specific with pet tactics. The petcom orders are very granular. Not that it usually comes to that, given that a good MM can steamroll anything in their path. But if it's needed, it's there.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
|
Yep, never again making a topic on these forums unless it's a question, since 90% of the people here don't comprehend when they read. My very first post already stated my beef is with bots MMs, and to a lesser degree the others (they do cause minor annoyances, but nothing to go crying about). My beef is not that any knockback = bad, it's that you as the human have little control over how the knockback is used (or at least 95% of the people playing this game will not go to the forums and seek out keybinds to better control the AI, or even know they exist). I'm not some super ego brute running around trying to tell everyone how I want things to work, I'm trying to figure out these MMs so I can work WITH them. I thought most forum goers were min/max guys like myself trying to find the fastest way to steamroll missions, but most of the responses have been "cry moar", so maybe that isn't the case...
[ QUOTE ]
Yep, never again making a topic on these forums unless it's a question, since 90% of the people here don't comprehend when they read. My very first post already stated my beef is with bots MMs, and to a lesser degree the others (they do cause minor annoyances, but nothing to go crying about). My beef is not that any knockback = bad, it's that you as the human have little control over how the knockback is used (or at least 95% of the people playing this game will not go to the forums and seek out keybinds to better control the AI, or even know they exist). I'm not some super ego brute running around trying to tell everyone how I want things to work, I'm trying to figure out these MMs so I can work WITH them. I thought most forum goers were min/max guys like myself trying to find the fastest way to steamroll missions, but most of the responses have been "cry moar", so maybe that isn't the case...
[/ QUOTE ]
Hint: the fastest way to steamroll missions is to not invite brutes.
Corrupters, Dominators, and masterminds all outperform you due to having controls and buffs. Brutes are absolutely useless in comparison.
Put 8 masterminds or corruptors together and you have enough bubbles and buffs and heals to make there be absolutely no need for tanking whatsoever, throw in a couple trick arrow users or dark blast users or a couple doms and you solve all your crowd control problems.
Want comedy and lighthearted action? Between levels 1-14? Try Nuclear in 90 - The Fusionette Task Force!
Arc ID 58363!
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not some super ego brute running around trying to tell everyone how I want things to work, I'm trying to figure out these MMs so I can work WITH them.
[/ QUOTE ]
And yet, all you've done is P&M about masterminds, mastermind players, and mastermind powersets, with a few demands that masterminds play the way you want them to thrown in to add flavour. Your comments also show that you have no real idea how masterminds are played or what they can do. You seem to think that brutes are the most important team member, everyone should kowtow to them, and doubly so when you are the brute. I've no idea why you've gotten such a negative response 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are times that I really believe that CoV was designed to cause friction between some of the ATs to preserve the mindset that you are evil and only working with these others to further your own plans.
Or to put it another way, balance by conflict.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have thought this as well, going so far as to have it as a basic assumption that the initial development was thinking along these lines.
Hero ATs fit their niches, and thus have a high level of synergy when teamed. The cost of this is that some find it either difficult or slow to solo.
Villain ATs tend to solo well across the board, but their are some inherent conflicts when teamed which are fueled by their inherent powers. The Brute's Fury mechanic encourages reckless speed on one end while stalker's generally want more time to set up and approach a new spawn. Dom's ending up somewhere in the middle, Mastermind's there as well as they are sometimes limited by the speed of their minions.
Some of the game changes and buffs have altered this original pattern (the stalker buffs being a prime example). But I clearly remember that the first few issues after CoV opened, the big teams were all Brutes and Corruptors. The general attitude being that any other AT just slowed down the team.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, this sounds about right to me. Brutes and Corruptors fit together very naturally. I don't think anyone doesn't get along well with a typical Corruptor, but Brutes offer the best foundation for buffs and the best built-in aggro control to allow Corruptors to go wild with damage abilities. Stalkers and Dominators used to fit together similarly (back when Stalkers got extra crits on mezzed targets), but still play to eccentricities of positioning and recharge respectively that put them both on a schedule that may not be as friendly to the Brute's fury bar. Masterminds either step all over everyone's toes (if they're clumsy) or make everyone else irrelevant (if they're skilled). If MMs didn't apparently have such a steep learning curve for many, I believe they'd be major candidates for nerfs.
@Eisenzahn
GW2 - Melchior.2135
AIM - Euroclydon23
Email - scorpany@yahoo.com or <sameasmyAIM>@aol.com (for the sheer novelty of an almost 20 year old email address that hasn't been overwhelmed by spambots yet)
[ QUOTE ]
Yep, never again making a topic on these forums unless it's a question, since 90% of the people here don't comprehend when they read. My very first post already stated my beef is with bots MMs, and to a lesser degree the others (they do cause minor annoyances, but nothing to go crying about). My beef is not that any knockback = bad, it's that you as the human have little control over how the knockback is used (or at least 95% of the people playing this game will not go to the forums and seek out keybinds to better control the AI, or even know they exist). I'm not some super ego brute running around trying to tell everyone how I want things to work, I'm trying to figure out these MMs so I can work WITH them. I thought most forum goers were min/max guys like myself trying to find the fastest way to steamroll missions, but most of the responses have been "cry moar", so maybe that isn't the case...
[/ QUOTE ]
If you were even remotely interested in learning how the AT worked and how to work with them better, you'd have mentioned it in the OP. Instead, we have this:
[ QUOTE ]
Me as brute: *gathers up nice hoard of enemies (EDIT: NOT HERDING, MAKING SURE THE MOB IS ALL WITHIN MELEE RANGE FOR EVERYONE TO USE THEIR AoEs!) for a big footstomp*
Mastermind: "Attack, my minions!"
Mob: *goes flying 5 million feet in every direction possible*
Me as brute: ">
"
Every single time I team with a MM this scenario happens and I just don't feel like playing anymore. Seriously, I can probably down a bunch of insps and solo 3 more mobs in the time it takes them to track down all the enemies they scattered. Bots MMs are especially bad at this, and 90% of the MMs have to be bots for some reason. And then because they aren't paying attention to who their minions are attacking, they end up aggroing another group. Does anyone else feel my mastermind pain?
[/ QUOTE ]
You didn't want to learn anything. You had a presumption, that Masterminds (and the bolded portion is to point out that while you specifically stated Bots were particularly bad at causing your original problem [massive knockback], that every Mastermind did this to some degree) were almost predominately bad players that did nothing but cause you grief through mob scatter (via knockback).
You then proceeded to backpedal as the thread wore on, probably because you were feeling victimized (a speculation on my part, as I really don't know nor care as the reasoning is only secondary to the fact that your story changed as discussion continued).
My advice? Learn how to post what you actually mean and want, in a far more intelligent manner then you have been. Perhaps then you will actually get information you're looking for, instead of people reacting to what they (rightly) perceive is a rant. You want to rant? Start a blog.
EDIT: To summarize with a bit more clarity - if you want people to get what you mean, effing say what you mean. Even if we were psychic, telepathy rarely works over long distances. Don't get upset at us for not reading your mind.
Don't hate a brilliant a/t because the people you've teamed with don't (in your opinion) play them well. Like very other a/t (hero and villain) you can give the players the most fantastic a/t out there and in the hands of hte ignorant, it'll still cause angst, grief and/or debt.
[ QUOTE ]
You seem to think that brutes are the most important team member, everyone should kowtow to them, and doubly so when you are the brute. I've no idea why you've gotten such a negative response
[/ QUOTE ]
Every team member has their role, I have no idea where you get that I think brutes are the most important. I'd be nothing without the buffs from others or sharing aggro with other brutes/MMs on the team. Brutes do provide some serious damage (more than scrappers at full fury if I remember correctly?), so please tell me you agree that not being able to hit most of the mob with an AoE attack is very inefficient? Keeping the group together is good for corruptors and doms as well (well if there were doms on the team I guess I wouldn't be complaining) NOT JUST ME THE SUPER EGOTISTIC AWESOME BRUTE.
And in regards to how I presented the topic, I have to agree it did start out as a rant. I had just teamed with 5 MMs, 3 of which were bots, so I wanted to kill myself from the lag and the enormous amount of scattering that took place. I suppose this should be my time to leave the topic (I promise I will this time) as it has certainly turned into an ugly mess. I'm going to roll a bots MM now, so have fun picking through this post to find more stuff to ream Mr. Ego Brute about.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You seem to think that brutes are the most important team member, everyone should kowtow to them, and doubly so when you are the brute. I've no idea why you've gotten such a negative response
[/ QUOTE ]
Every team member has their role, I have no idea where you get that I think brutes are the most important. I'd be nothing without the buffs from others or sharing aggro with other brutes/MMs on the team. Brutes do provide some serious damage (more than scrappers at full fury if I remember correctly?), so please tell me you agree that not being able to hit most of the mob with an AoE attack is very inefficient? Keeping the group together is good for corruptors and doms as well (well if there were doms on the team I guess I wouldn't be complaining) NOT JUST ME THE SUPER EGOTISTIC AWESOME BRUTE.
And in regards to how I presented the topic, I have to agree it did start out as a rant. I had just teamed with 5 MMs, 3 of which were bots, so I wanted to kill myself from the lag and the enormous amount of scattering that took place. I suppose this should be my time to leave the topic (I promise I will this time) as it has certainly turned into an ugly mess. I'm going to roll a bots MM now, so have fun picking through this post to find more stuff to ream Mr. Ego Brute about.
[/ QUOTE ]
The thing is. You dont need a brute to keep the team together. at all.
Give a trick arrow mastermind or a Dark Blast Corruptor or a well played stormy some room and they'll easily handle that job without you.
Aggro control is also pointless if you have enough buffs to hardcap everyone.
Damage? Doms, masterminds, and Corrs can all do that too quite well.
All brutes bring to a team is a specific playstyle that involves CLUMPCLUMPCLUMPGOGOGOHITHITHIT.
Besides, not being able to hit everything with an AoE is going to happen no matter what you do, theoretical max dps is just that, its theoretical, it doesnt happen in 9/10 cases.
I'm not saying brutes are pointless, i'm saying, a team doesnt reach its steamrolling best unless everyone is willing to compromise on playstyle.
Want comedy and lighthearted action? Between levels 1-14? Try Nuclear in 90 - The Fusionette Task Force!
Arc ID 58363!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You seem to think that brutes are the most important team member, everyone should kowtow to them, and doubly so when you are the brute. I've no idea why you've gotten such a negative response
[/ QUOTE ]
Every team member has their role, I have no idea where you get that I think brutes are the most important. I'd be nothing without the buffs from others or sharing aggro with other brutes/MMs on the team. Brutes do provide some serious damage (more than scrappers at full fury if I remember correctly?), so please tell me you agree that not being able to hit most of the mob with an AoE attack is very inefficient? Keeping the group together is good for corruptors and doms as well (well if there were doms on the team I guess I wouldn't be complaining) NOT JUST ME THE SUPER EGOTISTIC AWESOME BRUTE.
And in regards to how I presented the topic, I have to agree it did start out as a rant. I had just teamed with 5 MMs, 3 of which were bots, so I wanted to kill myself from the lag and the enormous amount of scattering that took place. I suppose this should be my time to leave the topic (I promise I will this time) as it has certainly turned into an ugly mess. I'm going to roll a bots MM now, so have fun picking through this post to find more stuff to ream Mr. Ego Brute about.
[/ QUOTE ]
The thing is. You dont need a brute to keep the team together. at all.
Give a trick arrow mastermind or a Dark Blast Corruptor or a well played stormy some room and they'll easily handle that job without you.
Aggro control is also pointless if you have enough buffs to hardcap everyone.
Damage? Doms, masterminds, and Corrs can all do that too quite well.
All brutes bring to a team is a specific playstyle that involves CLUMPCLUMPCLUMPGOGOGOHITHITHIT.
Besides, not being able to hit everything with an AoE is going to happen no matter what you do, theoretical max dps is just that, its theoretical, it doesnt happen in 9/10 cases.
[/ QUOTE ]
... Hopefully I'm not playing into a specific attempt to pick a stupid internet fight (or derail an already stupid internet fight into your own personal new one), but it seems to me you're being just as full of crap about Brutes as he's being about Masterminds.
@Eisenzahn
GW2 - Melchior.2135
AIM - Euroclydon23
Email - scorpany@yahoo.com or <sameasmyAIM>@aol.com (for the sheer novelty of an almost 20 year old email address that hasn't been overwhelmed by spambots yet)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You seem to think that brutes are the most important team member, everyone should kowtow to them, and doubly so when you are the brute. I've no idea why you've gotten such a negative response
[/ QUOTE ]
Every team member has their role, I have no idea where you get that I think brutes are the most important. I'd be nothing without the buffs from others or sharing aggro with other brutes/MMs on the team. Brutes do provide some serious damage (more than scrappers at full fury if I remember correctly?), so please tell me you agree that not being able to hit most of the mob with an AoE attack is very inefficient? Keeping the group together is good for corruptors and doms as well (well if there were doms on the team I guess I wouldn't be complaining) NOT JUST ME THE SUPER EGOTISTIC AWESOME BRUTE.
And in regards to how I presented the topic, I have to agree it did start out as a rant. I had just teamed with 5 MMs, 3 of which were bots, so I wanted to kill myself from the lag and the enormous amount of scattering that took place. I suppose this should be my time to leave the topic (I promise I will this time) as it has certainly turned into an ugly mess. I'm going to roll a bots MM now, so have fun picking through this post to find more stuff to ream Mr. Ego Brute about.
[/ QUOTE ]
The thing is. You dont need a brute to keep the team together. at all.
Give a trick arrow mastermind or a Dark Blast Corruptor or a well played stormy some room and they'll easily handle that job without you.
Aggro control is also pointless if you have enough buffs to hardcap everyone.
Damage? Doms, masterminds, and Corrs can all do that too quite well.
All brutes bring to a team is a specific playstyle that involves CLUMPCLUMPCLUMPGOGOGOHITHITHIT.
Besides, not being able to hit everything with an AoE is going to happen no matter what you do, theoretical max dps is just that, its theoretical, it doesnt happen in 9/10 cases.
[/ QUOTE ]
... Hopefully I'm not playing into a specific attempt to pick a stupid internet fight (or derail an already stupid internet fight into your own personal new one), but it seems to me you're being just as full of crap about Brutes as he's being about Masterminds.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not really. I'm just saying he's vastly overestimating the importance of any one AT to team balance.
Want comedy and lighthearted action? Between levels 1-14? Try Nuclear in 90 - The Fusionette Task Force!
Arc ID 58363!
Erm, I've never really had a problem teaming with MMs.
I hate playing them, which was what I thought the thread was about (based on the title), but I've never had any particular issue with teaming with them. The only time it's ever a problem for me is when there are more than 2, and that's only because the syetem I play on can't handle the extra lag all the pets running around causes.
The only brute I have at a decently high level is DM/SR...so I'm not exactly throwing a whole lot of AoE around
I usually play my stalker paired with my wife's MM, we have pretty well defined roles in that situation. She lets her pets go nuts on the minions and LTs while I systematically murder the harder targets that her pets have trouble whittling down fast enough. Works like a charm.
OP: I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you hate Energy blasters too. Especially when tanking, because no team can function without a tank gathering everything up before anyone attacks, right?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I don't know what to say for ya dude, I mean you make a thread with a title asking who hates an AT, in which then you follow up in your first post that this seems to happen with every MM or Bot MM you team with, by the 3rd post you seem to realize "oh crap, maybe I worded this a little wrong?!" only to follow up on your 4th post saying for the most part that All MM should be seen in not heard, yes, I know now the words you used, but for the most part, about what it means in a not shell.
I'd hand ya a flame vets but seems I am a few pages too late for that. Best I can say is it's more of the player then the AT, I can't count the times I have teamed with a cocky Brute that seems to want to lay it down like their are the Lord and Master Foamy or something, oddly enough most of them SS, but this doesn't mean all SS brutes are like this! I have teamed with so many that are not, that when they leave the team (sleep, eat, work, ect,) the whole team goes "AWWWW "
Best I can tell you is make your own team so you don't have to worry about a AT you don't want if you should still feel the same way.
Now as for THESE forums, sorry to say it matter no what Forum you post on! Make a topic about hating this or that AT/Class/power, and sooner or later the people that play that AT/Class WILL show up, and will more then likely NOT be happy with your topic, and they show up even faster with the words "Hate" "<AT here>" in the title.
I wouldn't stop posting on the forums, but next time if you need to get something off your chest better a simple title name of "Nightmare team" and you will be shocked how many people will show up to agree with ya 9 out of 10.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The OP hates MMs.
Because only MMs have knocback in CoV.
Oh, wait...
[/ QUOTE ]
Additionally, ALL MMs have knockback.
[/ QUOTE ]
Darn them crazy knock-backin' zombies. I think the Lich is the worst offender. Off with his head! 
53 Bots/FF/Mace Mastermind | 53 NRG/FF/Electricity Defender | 50 Time/Dual Pistols/Soul Defender | 50 Demons/FF/Mace Mastermind | 51 Necro/Dark/Soul Mastermind | 50 Thugs/Time/Mace Mastermind | 50 Ice/Ice/Arctic Tanker | 50 Plant/Rad/Earth Controller | 50 Illusion/Trick Arrow Controller | 50 Gravity/Force Field Controller
Yes, I like Force Fields.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The OP hates MMs.
Because only MMs have knocback in CoV.
Oh, wait...
[/ QUOTE ]
Additionally, ALL MMs have knockback.
[/ QUOTE ]
Darn them crazy knock-backin' zombies. I think the Lich is the worst offender. Off with his head!
[/ QUOTE ]
I most sincerely doubt he'd notice. I mean, he's already dead. That'd just mildly inconvenience him, at best!
QR
Even the most well played Masterminds with knockback (or any AT really) can still be annoying to melee toons. Whenever it gets too annoying for me I usually switch to a toon that loves to team with MM's or just solo on the Brute. Coming to the boards and stirring the pot is not gonna help your cause.
@Quarktease
The Unofficial Official of Nothing Official
Proud member of Nites of Darkness/Shut Your Pie Hole