Who else HATES masterminds?
By
Alexandria2000,
Posted on: 2009-07-26 01:19 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I mentioned this in another thread. I have a robotics mastermind. I rarely team with him for the exact same reasons the OP brought up. I'll do it on occasion, but I've had many missions where I tell my henchman to attack someone in the spawn we're working on, they attack and he goes flying back into another spawn, a split second later (before I can stop them) one of them sends an AoE out aggroing the second spawn. I always try to be a good team player, so when I aggro another spawn, I feel bad. When it happens with some frequency, I hold back on teaming with him. Aggroing another spawn normally isn't that much of a problem by itself, it's when the difficulty is set very high. It takes longer for henchmen to defeat an enemy, and a knockback-heavy powerset like Robotics means the chances for mobs being scattered are increased.
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MMs are easily the most misunderstood AT in this game.
Until you play one at least into 30s you have no idea. And not PL'd to 30 either, the early game is needed to learn to control the pets.
How does a heavy KB MM co-exist with a brute? There has to be give and take. And some maturity. Trade off being the alpha collector, it doesnt have to be the brute, everytime. MM's that learn to hold back and learn to play clean up. Then the next group, they lead with a taunt to collect the alpha and the brute plays clean up. Thats how you steamroll.
If you are a brute thats only happy being the center of attention everytime, and need to footstomp in nice concentric circles - ALL THE TIME-then you need to learn how to play nicely with others.
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I'd agree with this.
My suggestion is to make friends with a few dominators. All it takes is one AOE immob and the crowd isnt going anywhere. Just ask the dom to focus on immob and boss holding rather controlling the entire spawn since a good dom can stop the entire spawn from attacking. This way you get fury, the dom gets a meat shield, and the mm wont be scattering the spawn.
Work in progress no more. I have decided that I'm going to put my worst spelling errors here. Triage Bacon, Had this baster idea, TL
R"I'm going to beat the Jesus out of Satan!" My Wife while playing Dante's Inferno
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And the problem is I have never seen a good MM. Honestly, how CAN they be good I guess is what I'm getting at? All they can do is attack or not attack, they have almost no control over what their pets do, and the pets like to knock the crap out of a mob and send them flying. The only good thing they do is heal and buff.
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Turn this around -
Have you ever played a mastermind? Past the mid-20s?
"All they can do is attack or not attack" is wrong. The entire secondary is devoted to buffing or debuffing.
"They have almost no control over what their pets do" is wrong. That would be a Dominator. Even without actually LEARNING binds and such, they have at least three commands pre-set on character creation that control pets.
"and the pets like to knock the crap out of a mob and send them flying" is sometimes, but not always true. Look at *all* the primaries. Zombies don't send anyone flying. Little in Mercs sends anything flying. Bots have knockback, yes. Ninjas don't send anyone flying all that often (if ever.)
You've run into some bad players. Put the blame where it belongs - on *them.* Not the AT.
(Edit - and yes, I'm saying this from playing both.)
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Thugs, thugs, thugs.
(Let the Arsonist manage the aggro)
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
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Yeah, not too sure where to post this, but it's going here.
Me as brute: *gathers up nice hoard of enemies for a big footstomp*
Mastermind: "Attack, my minions!"
Mob: *goes flying 5 million feet in every direction possible*
Me as brute: ">
"
Every single time I team with a MM this scenario happens and I just don't feel like playing anymore. Seriously, I can probably down a bunch of insps and solo 3 more mobs in the time it takes them to track down all the enemies they scattered. Bots MMs are especially bad at this, and 90% of the MMs have to be bots for some reason. And then because they aren't paying attention to who their minions are attacking, they end up aggroing another group. Does anyone else feel my mastermind pain?
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First mistake you made...you herded.
Herding doesn't make things go faster, it slows it down.
All my fastest teams have been teams that can steamroll spawn to spawn.
A team of scrappers and trollers did that so nicely. 
Second, you think only some MM's will do that? You must be a lucky brute not to have teamed with other Knockback specialists.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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(qr)
If you are on a team and things are not working the way you want them to, you need to either adjust your playstyle or find a new team. Insisting that people change the way they play so that you can do things your way isn't going to work.
You're way isn't necessarily the most efficient. Even if it was, many people just don't care about efficiency beyond a certain point.
Display some adaptability, or make your own teams where you can be The Boss. Some people like that kind of thing, I guess.
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I need to repost this in all of the AE player hate threads.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
I gotta go with the OP. I dislike grouping with MMs. (especially Thugs MMs). That said, having a top quality player at the helm makes a huge difference.
Here's a few things you can do that will make you less reviled.
- in a full group, don't bother summoning your tier one pets - they are probably just going to get in the way. When the inevitable SHTF (stuff hits the fan) moment occurs, pull them out. They will arrive in defensive mode and save your hiney.
- Keep your pets on Ignore. That way, when the Corrupter who can't sit still snipes some guy and he responds with an AOE attack, your pets don't go tearing off across the room and screw up the pull.
- During the fight, keep your guys on Ignore. This allows YOU to control who they are damging.
- You know those attack powers you have in your primary. Save those powers for soloing. They do next to no damage. Using them will only result in some enraged mob punching you in the face. Since your guys are not in Defensive mode, you can't afford to be punched in the face.
- Do not assist the Brute. He does not want (or need) your help.
- Focus on the mobs that are standing off and using ranged attacks. See that guy off to the side healing mobs. Kill him. Let the Brute deal with the scrum.
- When the Brute bites off more than he can chew and goes down in a hail of gunfire. That is your moment to shine. Forget everything I just said and save the day. Then heap scorn on the brute. Mock him as he begs you for a 'green or an orange' so he can make a wakie. Then give him the green, and rez him before he can combine them. Then mock him some more.
I thought this thread was going to be about how annoyinh MM pets are in caves. Damn door blocker! 
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I gotta go with the OP. I dislike grouping with MMs. (especially Thugs MMs). That said, having a top quality player at the helm makes a huge difference.
Here's a few things you can do that will make you less reviled.
- in a full group, don't bother summoning your tier one pets - they are probably just going to get in the way. When the inevitable SHTF (stuff hits the fan) moment occurs, pull them out. They will arrive in defensive mode and save your hiney.
[/ QUOTE ]Doesn't work for Ninja MMs. The Genin are the real beasts there.
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- Keep your pets on Ignore. That way, when the Corrupter who can't sit still snipes some guy and he responds with an AOE attack, your pets don't go tearing off across the room and screw up the pull.
[/ QUOTE ]I'm not getting eaten alive just to not "screw up the pull". The pets are on defensive, end of story. It's called "corner pulling" for a reason, and if you just haul off and snipe before letting people get around the corner, you botched the pull, not the others.
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- During the fight, keep your guys on Ignore. This allows YOU to control who they are damging.
[/ QUOTE ]Hell no, that's the quickest way for an MM to eat dirt.
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- You know those attack powers you have in your primary. Save those powers for soloing. They do next to no damage. Using them will only result in some enraged mob punching you in the face.
[/ QUOTE ]Okay, this makes sense....
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Since your guys are not in Defensive mode, you can't afford to be punched in the face.
[/ QUOTE ]Why don't you just tell the stalker and brute to turn off their armors? That's what your advice is so far.
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- Do not assist the Brute. He does not want (or need) your help.
[/ QUOTE ]Do not assist the MM. He does not want, or need, your help.
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- Focus on the mobs that are standing off and using ranged attacks. See that guy off to the side healing mobs. Kill him. Let the Brute deal with the scrum.
[/ QUOTE ]Can I have your global so I can avoid teaming with someone who wants MMs to do pretty much jack [censored]?
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- When the Brute bites off more than he can chew and goes down in a hail of gunfire. That is your moment to shine. Forget everything I just said and save the day. Then heap scorn on the brute. Mock him as he begs you for a 'green or an orange' so he can make a wakie. Then give him the green, and rez him before he can combine them. Then mock him some more.
[/ QUOTE ].... Or actually play well, contribute, and keep people from dying in the first place. You know, being a good team player instead of following the worst MM advice I've ever seen.
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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I gotta go with the OP. I dislike grouping with MMs. (especially Thugs MMs). That said, having a top quality player at the helm makes a huge difference.
Here's a few things you can do that will make you less reviled.
- in a full group, don't bother summoning your tier one pets - they are probably just going to get in the way. When the inevitable SHTF (stuff hits the fan) moment occurs, pull them out. They will arrive in defensive mode and save your hiney.
[/ QUOTE ]Doesn't work for Ninja MMs. The Genin are the real beasts there.
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- Keep your pets on Ignore. That way, when the Corrupter who can't sit still snipes some guy and he responds with an AOE attack, your pets don't go tearing off across the room and screw up the pull.
[/ QUOTE ]I'm not getting eaten alive just to not "screw up the pull". The pets are on defensive, end of story. It's called "corner pulling" for a reason, and if you just haul off and snipe before letting people get around the corner, you botched the pull, not the others.
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- During the fight, keep your guys on Ignore. This allows YOU to control who they are damging.
[/ QUOTE ]Hell no, that's the quickest way for an MM to eat dirt.
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- You know those attack powers you have in your primary. Save those powers for soloing. They do next to no damage. Using them will only result in some enraged mob punching you in the face.
[/ QUOTE ]Okay, this makes sense....
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Since your guys are not in Defensive mode, you can't afford to be punched in the face.
[/ QUOTE ]Why don't you just tell the stalker and brute to turn off their armors? That's what your advice is so far.
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- Do not assist the Brute. He does not want (or need) your help.
[/ QUOTE ]Do not assist the MM. He does not want, or need, your help.
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- Focus on the mobs that are standing off and using ranged attacks. See that guy off to the side healing mobs. Kill him. Let the Brute deal with the scrum.
[/ QUOTE ]Can I have your global so I can avoid teaming with someone who wants MMs to do pretty much jack [censored]?
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- When the Brute bites off more than he can chew and goes down in a hail of gunfire. That is your moment to shine. Forget everything I just said and save the day. Then heap scorn on the brute. Mock him as he begs you for a 'green or an orange' so he can make a wakie. Then give him the green, and rez him before he can combine them. Then mock him some more.
[/ QUOTE ].... Or actually play well, contribute, and keep people from dying in the first place. You know, being a good team player instead of following the worst MM advice I've ever seen.
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Torn apart very well. That was awful advice.
I love Masterminds! I love playing them, I love teaming with them. Lots of pets? Great! Gives mobs something to think about other than my squishy [censored]. Knockback? Hell yeah! A mob flying through the air is a mob not burning me alive. A well-played MM is a great thing to watch. From my own experience, it's a rapid-fire style of play involving fine control of your pets to enable them to masterfully enact your edicts of destruction. Grave knights, you go here and then chew on that thing! Lich, you go passive until you are in position then attack that guy for maximum cone goodness! Zombies, chill at the back and give me more pseudo-hitpoints! Then I still have an entire secondary powerset to leverage for the benefit of my team, both its smarter and less-so members.
Sorry OP, no sympathy here. Teaming is a "check your ego at the door" type of thing, no room for folks who demand that others play their way only.
edit:
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And the problem is I have never seen a good MM. Honestly, how CAN they be good I guess is what I'm getting at? All they can do is attack or not attack, they have almost no control over what their pets do, and the pets like to knock the crap out of a mob and send them flying. The only good thing they do is heal and buff.
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I feel your pain. Every time a brute goes in and messes up my mob placement, I think, what is wrong with brutes? Can they be played well at all? All they can do is attack or not attack, and then they knock things all over or drag the mob around.
Eh, as a matter of personal preference I've never enjoyed playing anyone who melees a lot with Masterminds, even ones I recognize as very good. Having to wade through a sea of NPC allies is just obnoxious to me, although it doesn't actually slow me down much now that I can shove them out of the way. It sometimes makes targeting kind of a hassle too, but that's why I set up targeting macros for favorite enemy types at the beginning of each new mission. I don't like MMs, but I can put up with up to two of them on a team. Any more than that, and they frankly don't need whatever the hell I'm playing backing them up, so I might as well leave them to it.
The MMs that really cheese me off though are the ones who think that because they're capable of absorbing an Alpha, that they have to. The ones who are disengaging from spawns half dead or less to annoy the next one. I definitely agree with the "You Attack It, You Make Sure It's Dead Before Leaving" philosophy. Racing to the next spawn can be fun sometimes, but the simple fact is that Brutes are almost always the better choice for Alpha Absorber, even if the MM could pull it off with less risk to self, because Brutes can convert incoming hostility into More Damage. MMs can convert incoming hostility into nothing at all, which is certainly valuable, but an actual positive exchange is clearly superior in most cases.
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I gotta go with the OP. I dislike grouping with MMs. (especially Thugs MMs). That said, having a top quality player at the helm makes a huge difference.
Here's a few things you can do that will make you less reviled.
- in a full group, don't bother summoning your tier one pets - they are probably just going to get in the way. When the inevitable SHTF (stuff hits the fan) moment occurs, pull them out. They will arrive in defensive mode and save your hiney.
[/ QUOTE ]Doesn't work for Ninja MMs. The Genin are the real beasts there.
[ QUOTE ]
- Keep your pets on Ignore. That way, when the Corrupter who can't sit still snipes some guy and he responds with an AOE attack, your pets don't go tearing off across the room and screw up the pull.
[/ QUOTE ]I'm not getting eaten alive just to not "screw up the pull". The pets are on defensive, end of story. It's called "corner pulling" for a reason, and if you just haul off and snipe before letting people get around the corner, you botched the pull, not the others.
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- During the fight, keep your guys on Ignore. This allows YOU to control who they are damging.
[/ QUOTE ]Hell no, that's the quickest way for an MM to eat dirt.
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- You know those attack powers you have in your primary. Save those powers for soloing. They do next to no damage. Using them will only result in some enraged mob punching you in the face.
[/ QUOTE ]Okay, this makes sense....
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Since your guys are not in Defensive mode, you can't afford to be punched in the face.
[/ QUOTE ]Why don't you just tell the stalker and brute to turn off their armors? That's what your advice is so far.
[ QUOTE ]
- Do not assist the Brute. He does not want (or need) your help.
[/ QUOTE ]Do not assist the MM. He does not want, or need, your help.
[ QUOTE ]
- Focus on the mobs that are standing off and using ranged attacks. See that guy off to the side healing mobs. Kill him. Let the Brute deal with the scrum.
[/ QUOTE ]Can I have your global so I can avoid teaming with someone who wants MMs to do pretty much jack [censored]?
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- When the Brute bites off more than he can chew and goes down in a hail of gunfire. That is your moment to shine. Forget everything I just said and save the day. Then heap scorn on the brute. Mock him as he begs you for a 'green or an orange' so he can make a wakie. Then give him the green, and rez him before he can combine them. Then mock him some more.
[/ QUOTE ].... Or actually play well, contribute, and keep people from dying in the first place. You know, being a good team player instead of following the worst MM advice I've ever seen.
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Torn apart very well. That was awful advice.
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Seconded.
My sole MM is Bot/Storm. By all rights, I should be a KB-holic, and a brute/stalker's worst nightmare.
I get more 'Holy [censored]!'s in regards to how easy things are around me, then I do complaints about my play style.
Peculiar.
Whoa!!!! Hold on there. Calm down... I must admit that while I expected a passionate response to that post, I didn't expect to end up banned from teaming with Arcticfaux.
At no time did I claim I was attempting to describe how to play a l33t MM or even a good MM. My advice was on how to play a MM without alienating or marginalizing other players. I simply described steps a MM can take to help mitigate the unpleasantness that results from the presence of their rampaging minions.
No need to be whipping out the ignore stick
Best way to not alienate yourself on a team as an MM? Do whatever it takes to help steamroll through enemies.
Often times on large teams, I'm generally playing a tidal game of "attack this target" and "pull back to bodyguard" between buffing and debuffing.
On smaller teams, well, I play like I solo, as there's bountiful targets for all.
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At no time did I claim I was attempting to describe how to play a l33t MM or even a good MM. My advice was on how to play a MM without alienating or marginalizing other players. I simply described steps a MM can take to help mitigate the unpleasantness that results from the presence of their rampaging minions.
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Honestly? I believe the best way to play the AT without marginalizing or alienating other players would be... learning how to properly and effectively manage your powers and pets. It may sound shocking, but it doesn't really require a lot of effort (hell, even I can do it, and I hate micromanagement - that's why I only have one Mastermind).
You shouldn't leave your pets in any one specific mode for any length of time - unless it's Bodyguard mode and you're tanking (and at that point it's best to make sure everyone is aware and cool with you doing it; I've asked every Brute I've ever teamed with if they were cool tanking, and if not, I'd do my best and would appreciate if they picked up any slack.*). Learn how to manage your pets - when it's best to have them in what mode, the time it takes for them to transition from one mode to the next, and what macros/keybinds you need to make and use to be effective (or how to manage the Advanced pet window if you don't want to use macros/keybinds - that's how I learned what I needed).
Don't actively do things that may gimp you, and get yourself stuck into bad habits that can and will cause you to underperform. Learn to play your AT effectively - it's the same deal for anyone on the team, Masterminds are not unique or special in this area. You don't tell the Brute to dumb down they're game, you don't give the same bad advice to anyone else. It's ridiculous.
(*Sidepoint: For the love of Mike, people, learn to freakin' communicate with your teams! If you have an issue with someone on your team, talk to them politely [and preferably privately] about it and work it out so that you're not stepping on each other's toes. It's not that hard. You'd do it on the job or at a recreational sport you play, wouldn't you? Why is it so hard to assume you don't have to in a multi-player game? Argh!
...This has nothing to do with the majority of the post, it's just me ranting. That's why it's a sidepoint. I apologize in advance.)
Ok, let me clear up a few misconceptions before you guys ream me some more.
First off, please point out where I said herd in my first post? Brutes do not, and should not herd unless the situation desperately calls for it. The brute goes from mob to mob building up fury and tries to keep the mob somewhat together so we don't play hide n' seek with 10 different minions, and obviously so the AoE centric characters don't go to waste. Just trust me that I know how to play brutes. I've gotten compliments MANY times on my bruting skills.
The only time I can't seem to manage a team is when those bots MMs come in (and to a lesser extent the others that cause mobs to fly/run away). I've played a MM to level 10 (as much as I could stand of them), and without any fancy-smancy binds and macros the ONLY thing you can do is tell your PETS to attack, not attack, or defend (which is basically attack). I can't specifically tell my pets to not use attacks that knockback or anything, they just do whatever they want. I fail to see how it could possibly be the PLAYER'S fault when all they can do is tell the pets to attack. Sure, I could tell the player to not have their pets attack, but then all they are is Mr. Buff, and then I'm just taking away their enjoyment of the game. Yes I do try communicating with the MMs on my team, and they all tell me that they can only tell their pets to attack, so please enlighten me on how they suck as players. And please don't say they should look up all those fancy binds and stuff, because a majority of the players don't read the forums or care enough to do it (and I don't blame them).
I don't know why you're complaining so much. MM's pets barely do any knockback at all. One set doesn't even have kb.
Me thinks you're exaggerating because two or three baddies went a few feet out of your melee range.
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Ok, let me [do nothing but go on the defensive and shoot my post through with emotional drivel that dilutes my point].
[I am aware of what herding is, and was misquoted partially due to context]. [I am aware of how to play a Brute, and the mechanics involved with Fury. I tailor my playstyle around that, and am frustrated when I feel other players are (no matter how wrong my assertion is) actively trying to make it impossible for me to play one as I feel they should be].
[I try to force my way into a leadership position and manage everything around me] [except when certain characters come in and ruin my fun]. [I have experience with masterminds to level 10, and have found them not to my liking], and [without doing anything to try and make myself an effective player. I personally feel that keybinding and macros are essentially useless, and anyone using them is overcomplicating the game despite the fact that it may make up for failures in the AI coding. I dislike people that tell me I should use them, even if it would improve my effectiveness, as it would not improve my ability to enjoy that AT].
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Fixed that up a bit for you, though perhaps far more snarkily then I intended (not that your original post was exactly the height of polite discussionary form). Did I miss anything, or would you like to dispute something I may have misconstrued given how you worded things?
I'd really like to make sure we're on the same page before I start formulating a rebuttal.
And again, I didn't say ALL MM primaries are crap. I'm mainly pointing the finger at bots, because they do make EVERY F'ING minion fly 10 feet and cause them to run. That is no exaggeration there, it happens on every bot MM I ever played with. I don't so much mind the other MMs, because like you said, a few targets going out of my range is no big deal.
As a Bot MM and a teamer, I ensure that the mob is immobilized with my anti-KB mu mastery power, or ensure that someone else has, before I let my Assbot lay down burn patches. Other than that, why condemn an entire AT for the actions of a few? Masterminds are like Stormies, bad players make them REALLY bad, and good players destroy things and make teaming a cinch. Now, I hope I'm one of the latter, but who knows.
Seriously, you think most people who play this game even KNOW what keybinds and stuff are? I'm not disputing the fact that they are helpful and should be used, but I guarantee a majority of MM players aren't up to learning it and implementing it into the game. You have to be realistic and not expect everyone to play the way you want them to (you see what I did there?).
And please explain how a brute needs to adapt to their mob being scattered across the whole map.
Scatter can be very very useful in some situations. (I say this as my MM is a knockback specialist) However, if your Brute is trying to herd, then indulge him, that way your burn patches stack. I'm sorry Dudeman that you have decided to not really listen to the items we are pointing out to you. The best thing to do in teams is to WORK TOGETHER and not try to say "my way or the highway", regardless if you're a villain or not.
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Seriously, you think most people who play this game even KNOW what keybinds and stuff are? I'm not disputing the fact that they are helpful and should be used, but I guarantee a majority of MM players aren't up to learning it and implementing it into the game. You have to be realistic and not expect everyone to play the way you want them to (you see what I did there?).
And please explain how a brute needs to adapt to their mob being scattered across the whole map.
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Exaggerate much and 5 to 10 feet is the whole map I guess by your standards. Don't adapt it's a video game stop getting so worked up over so npcs that get KBed some times. So what if you have to fun 5 or 10 more feet to hit them is it really that a big deal?
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And the problem is I have never seen a good MM. Honestly, how CAN they be good I guess is what I'm getting at? All they can do is attack or not attack, they have almost no control over what their pets do, and the pets like to knock the crap out of a mob and send them flying. The only good thing they do is heal and buff.
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Turn this around -
Have you ever played a mastermind? Past the mid-20s?
"All they can do is attack or not attack" is wrong. The entire secondary is devoted to buffing or debuffing.
"They have almost no control over what their pets do" is wrong. That would be a Dominator. Even without actually LEARNING binds and such, they have at least three commands pre-set on character creation that control pets.
"and the pets like to knock the crap out of a mob and send them flying" is sometimes, but not always true. Look at *all* the primaries. Zombies don't send anyone flying. Little in Mercs sends anything flying. Bots have knockback, yes. Ninjas don't send anyone flying all that often (if ever.)
You've run into some bad players. Put the blame where it belongs - on *them.* Not the AT.
(Edit - and yes, I'm saying this from playing both.)