Is there a reason to be anything other than thugs?
By
Agonus,
Posted on: 2009-07-21 01:35 in Masterminds
Nope. Just theme.
Hopefully Demon Summoning finally changes this and brings some real "benefit/differences/strengths" to the table...
Well Bots damage isn't as resisted as Lethal. Some guy had calculations that had about 46% of the PvE content resisting lethal, and somewhere around 18% resisting energy. Also, Bots have better base resists.
And if you're rolling a /FF for tanking, that defense that the Enforcer provides becomes negligible if you slot well.
The best reason is that some of us aren't number crunching bean counters when it comes to the game and like to play it, not over analyze it. Of course, one man's over analysis is another's play, but do know that not everyone here plays that way.
Also, once you've been there done that with thugs, why do it again? Try another powerset for the variety.
Bots have more defense then say "human" pets. And come with a snipe...on that note, bots have Mez protection which I myself enjoy. Though If you want overkill....Thugs is the vert definition of the word. At the same time , people choose anything that blasts these days, as going into melee is just plain dumb. I roll my Nin/Dark from time to time and just hate it when they decide to melee every little thing. Of course it comes with the territory, YMMV.
Lastly, you don't see many Zombie MM's as their the weakest, Mercs are pure Ranged(more so than Thugs) so its a very famous set. Currently I'm rolling a Thugs/Poison, and a Bot/Traps, both of which are great EB killers.
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
yes thugs dark is a very very good set. but just the other day i say a storm ninja do somthing i never could.
during an ITF were u atk the comp surronded bye robots well all know this is a pain. well he turned on hurican and literly ran circles around us.
it was so funny to watch all the bots go flying that i cried lol. and since hes and mm he can take the aggro dmg and live. so yes thiere other set out there that can do things u cant.
Thugs are very good, and are probably the best "generalist" set, especially leveling up. But that doesn't make them the best for all occasions. Some advantages the others have:
Bots: The toughest pets to kill, since they get high defense, innate resists, and good healing (the Protector Bots alone can often keep the team going without heals from the MM). They also offer the Mastermind a nice bit of defense, which is perfect for Tankerminds. And after 32 they do almost as much damage as Thugs, with good AoEs, and a less resisted damage type. All from range, with no melee Bruiser running out of aura range or requiring Goto commands to make him stop tossing rocks.
Dark: Insane controls, all the pets can self heal, lots of to-hit penalties. If you want a control-focused Mastermind, these are the guys to use. They also have a fair bit of Negative damage, which is less resisted.
Ninjas: Want to kill a tough single target really fast? Call in the ninjas... assuming you can keep them alive. My least favorite primary, but you can't beat them for single target damage.
Mercs: All ranged, all can slot Achilles' Heel procs, and they work very well with true "Natural" theme characters that aren't gangsters. They do have a fair bit of control when you get lucky enough for them to use it effectively (all too rare), but really Bots are all around better if you want pure ranged minions. Still, concept is important too and they don't stink, they're just not quite as strong as the others.
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636
Thugs are very good. All of their pets spend all of their time doing damage, with a large portion of it AOE. Unlike some, they are pretty solid from 1 to 50. But they do have issues, like the suicidal arsonist.
I've never played a high level bots, but I can tell you one thing they do that thugs can't. Bots buff the MM. All in all everything Stryker said iseems pretty spot on.
My fav villain: bots/ff
Lemme see...
Everything under boss strength is permastunned and/or flopping around the map due to massive amounts of knockback-down-up-around - oh, dead already.
Let's not even get started with melee opponents. *puuuush*
Bosses are flopping around and/or attacking me. missmissmiss- gotta love softcapped defense - missmissmiss -oh, hit - health didn't move, yay bodyguard, yay tough, yay patron +res power. Oh, he's dead.
Most EBs are pushed into a corner and slowly roasted. While still not managing to hurt me.
Bots don't get attacked, thanks to provoke. AoEs hit em, no they don't, praise the bubbles. Oh look, one got hit.. good thing they're so tough. Oh look he got hit again, go Protbot!
Oh no, I'm in trouble, worst case, all bots are dead. PFF up - run hide - yawnstretchrecover - go back, wreak vengeance.
I'll stick with my tanktrollermind, thank you.
I dont know...
Fun ????
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
The biggest problem is that Thugs don't live up to their on-paper damage output because in both sets a big chunk of the damage comes from stacked burn patches. On Bots those burn patches come from the Assbot, which is a tank that is typically the last minion to fall when you're under heavy attack. On Thugs it's on a suicidal minion that has an AI set to "hug the nearest boss despite what the MM says". This cuts down on your damage output as your either always resummoning the arsonist or you're holding him back and not letting him use his big damage power.
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I've often heard that thugs leads in AoE power.
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Eh, I dunno. Bots do some serious AE damage. I'd say they probably out-perform Thugs in pure area effect capability, due to the assault bot having the two missile swarms on 16 sec recharges.
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But hey, every set has its advantages, right? Bots get up to 12 defense from shield that are double stacked on 4 of their bots.
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Yep. Bots are VERY durable.
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Then I talked to a Thugs/Dark who was attempting to get crazy tank stats and learned that enforcer maneuvers are actually stronger. And stack to EVERY thug. And in a team each thug set buffs every other thug set. And they can slot recharge sets to get 10% def and 20% res.
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Thugs, by themselves, aren't very tough. Admittedly, the enforcer +def from maneuvers is probably a bit high (if you use Ninjas as the example; or Ninjas are too low if you use Thugs as the example). The tier-1's have no resists, and no defense. Super-squishy. The enforcers have lethal resist, and defense once you get them trained up. And depending on how you want to slot stuff, you can get the +20% resist and +10% def in every MM set; it's just EASIER as a Thugs MM, since you can dump it into gang war.
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The only advantage I can think of that the "tank" set has over them is the occasional protector heal (plus cold/psi res), and that you get a personal shield of 12%.
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Actually, there are several advantages that the other sets have over Thugs. Thugs are all about damage output, with a sprinkling of defense on the side. They have very low innate resists (second lowest of all MM sets), and no status protection. Make no mistake, the Thugs set is arguably one of the more powerful sets MMs have. But it's not the "hands down, bar none" winner, by any stretch.
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But what about other sets that can debuff enemies? Oh, thugs can do that too? And they get +tohit as well?
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Thugs don't really debuff much. They have a little -def from some of the gunshots, but that's about it. And the +tohit is all of 5%, when you have both enforcers out and within range. So while it's handy, it's honestly barely noticable if the MM him/herself is nearby.
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Ninjas! They get an inherent defense bonus... which is less than enforcer maneuvers.
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Yep. Ninjas need some defense love. However, there is no set that delivers more single-target damage. I've watched my squad of pajama-wearers tear down EBs in literally under 10 seconds, if they all get into melee on it, without me debuffing them. With debuffs? Ouch.
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What about synergy? Dark is better at a distance but poison has a power that works in melee... oh they get both.
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Actually, Dark Miasma works just fine in melee, too.
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But what about that set that gets a tankish boss, scourge, and fury? Oh, that IS the thugs set.
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There's nothing really "tankish" about the Bruiser. He's got no more resists than any other tier-3 pet, and less than some. And his 'fury' is negligible; it drains INSANELY fast, and builds pretty slowly. The Arsonist gets scourge on some of his attacks, yes. But he's suicidal.
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So, am I not getting something here? Certainly theme is a strong reason to be some other set, but I'm talking about power advantages.
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I think you're overstating the Thug advantages, and downplaying their weaknesses, as well as downplaying the other sets' advantages.
Bots are incredibly durable, have solid resists, and can lay down some major AE carnage at 32+. They have the best status protection of any pet set, can heal each other, bubble, and chain-stun via seeker drones and photon grenades.
Mercs are very solid, and when backed up by a secondary that can boost their resists/defense, are VERY tough (my Merc/Pain's pets have around 60% smash/lethal resist; ever seen a tier-1 pet shrug off a rikti boss smacking them with their giant energy sword? Mine do), not to mention having VERY nice controls, albeit on a very slow recharge (2m).
Ninjas are, bar none, the masters of single-target damage. You haven't seen things die "quickly" until you drag all your ninjas into melee on something and let them attack. Anything short of a boss dies as fast as you can shift targets and order them to attack.
The Necro set has the most controls of any set. The Lich is insane with controls. If you back them up with /Dark, you're basically a controller with heavy damage output. Oh, and did I mention that the Grave Knights get crits, just like Scrappers? Seeing a GK pop off a crit for 800+ damage is funny.
What it really boils down to is this: I like the Thug set. But the other sets all have their own advantages. Some could use a little tweaking, to be sure, but it's definitely not a case of the Thug set outperforming everyone else by leaps and bounds.
The Mastermind Project
Leveling every primary/secondary to 50!
50: Bot/FF, Bot/Dark, Ninja/Trap, Merc/Pain, Necro/Dark, Thug/Dark
Works in Progress: Thug/TA, Merc/Poison, Thug/Pain, Ninja/Pain, Thug/Storm
I disagree with whoever said Necro is the worst primary. Once you get to 32, entire mobs of enemies will be cowering in fear as your horde sucks the life out of them and while your Grave Knights easily tear down anything in their path.
Different primaries offer different things. And I have both a 50 thugs and a 50 bots and I'll say that my bots consistently and reliably deal more AoE damage than my thugs. Full-auto laser (x3) + photon grenade (x2) + incendiary missiles + swarm missiles = nothing lower than a boss lives. Ever.
And the Assault Bot has -Regen which is pretty useful if not overpowered in tough boss/AV/hero fights.
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
<QR>
None of the MM primaries really suck, but some of them take more skill to play well than others, IMHO. If anything is true about the MM AT it's that you can separate the good from the rest by how much effort they are willing to put into playing the AT and not the sets they've chosen to play with.
The Arsonist is the annoying as hell reason I like Bots more than Thugs for ranged pets. I have a 50 Bots/Traps and Necro/Dark that I love and can do pretty amazing things with, if I do say so myself. My Thugs/Poison is still in the 40's in part because the Arsonist, which is a big chunk of the sets AoE, is a piece of crap and nearly impossible to keep alive. Arsonist aside I think my Mercs/Storm that is still in the 30's is easily comparable in damage to my Thugs at that level.
Everyone has opinions, though. 
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And the Assault Bot has -Regen which is pretty useful if not overpowered in tough boss/AV/hero fights.
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I know, it really does help quite a bit. More than anyone would think. Never realized how big of a -Regen debuff it was until I was in RV on my /Regen Scrapper and one hit me with the single cannon and then the dual cannon and my regen was floored.
Also, Necro/Dark has some of the best damage mitigation outside of /FF.
I wrote up a huge post here responding with hard stats but it was blocked by the damnable "the form you submitted" error.
The summary:
wumpusrat, some of what you are saying is disputed by City of Data, particularly the bruiser's resists. You can only use recharge sets with the thugs and zombies sets. Thug resists are better than you think, only beaten by mercs unless you are fighting an enemy with exotic attacks. And other sets' mez protection is mostly about PVP centic mez types. Bots mez protection is 1 point of stun and 4 points of sleep otherwise.
It may sound like it, but I am not saying that thugs pwns everything. However, it has most of the advantages of bots and mercs combined but none of the disadvantages.
Most notably, it has more defense and similar, but differently distributed resists to bots, especially with recharge sets.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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It is no coincidence that every MM pet class has ample knockback powers.
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I've wanted to ask about your sig and what that means.
Why do they? Proponents of KB usually say that it just takes skill, but there is no way to use that KB strategically.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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It is no coincidence that every MM pet class has ample knockback powers.
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I've wanted to ask about your sig and what that means.
Why do they? Proponents of KB usually say that it just takes skill, but there is no way to use that KB strategically.
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Thats the tradeoff. MM's were "supposed" (relax all you MM tanks... I SAID RELAX!!) to be the defenders of the villains. So if you kept the damage of the current pets and take away the annoyance of the knockback, then you have an outrageous pet class that is able to tank, deal crazy damage, herd like a beast, use FF and weather to trap herded enemies and/or heal like a corr. you will have nothing but MM's running around in CoV. Much like how StarWars Galaxies has nothing but jedi running around.
When all hope seems to have drifted away.. and the shadows of death creep closer. Do not fear or cower.. do not make peace or seek salvation. For I will be there, supporting your movement. So give me your pain, weakness, despair, fear and doubt.. The Light will grant you another stand.
You vastly overestimate the "annoyance" of knockback and underestimate its mitigation power.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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It is no coincidence that every MM pet class has ample knockback powers.
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I've wanted to ask about your sig and what that means.
Why do they? Proponents of KB usually say that it just takes skill, but there is no way to use that KB strategically.
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Say hello to my little friend....
the GOTO Command.
It's not rocket science.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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You vastly overestimate the "annoyance" of knockback and underestimate its mitigation power.
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This.
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It may sound like it, but I am not saying that thugs pwns everything. However, it has most of the advantages of bots and mercs combined but none of the disadvantages.
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Disadvantages in Bots, when compared to Thugs? Not seeing em.
Thugs is DPS, first and foremost.
Control: Bruiser - 2 ST Stuns, 2 AoE stuns
Buffs: Double Maneuvers from Enforcers.
Bots:
Control: Photon Grenade
AssBot: ST Stun, AoE Stun
ProtBot: Photon Grenade, up to 4 Seeker Drones
Buff: Repair Robot
ProtBot: Force Shields (partially stacked), Heal
While Thugs might be stronger in the DPS department, it's survivability is way below Bots. Now... what advantages aside from DPS (argueable) do Thugs have?
Bots are more durable, don't get mezzed, stay at range, don't deal a widely resisted damage type, and with the proper immobilization, can lay down much more AoE with multiple burn patches.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
I really enjoyed my Merc/Pain MM. I had two lvl 50 Thugs, one Thugs/TA(was very fun), Thugs/Poison(hated it at the end)
Only beef with Merc's is the stupid medic, thinks he has to run into melee, to shoot them.
JJ
I delete more 50s, then you'll ever have.
http://www.pandora.com/people/jjdemon
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You vastly overestimate the "annoyance" of knockback and underestimate its mitigation power.
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This.
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It may sound like it, but I am not saying that thugs pwns everything. However, it has most of the advantages of bots and mercs combined but none of the disadvantages.
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Disadvantages in Bots, when compared to Thugs? Not seeing em.
Thugs is DPS, first and foremost.
Control: Bruiser - 2 ST Stuns, 2 AoE stuns
Buffs: Double Maneuvers from Enforcers.
Bots:
Control: Photon Grenade
AssBot: ST Stun, AoE Stun
ProtBot: Photon Grenade, up to 4 Seeker Drones
Buff: Repair Robot
ProtBot: Force Shields (partially stacked), Heal
While Thugs might be stronger in the DPS department, it's survivability is way below Bots. Now... what advantages aside from DPS (argueable) do Thugs have?
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The double Maneuvers don't need to be constantly refreshed plus both T2 pets get double stacks.
Gang War > Repair because Gang War can take the two recharge pet uniques giving your pets +10 Resistance and +5% defense. No other primary can do that.
I'm working on getting a IOed Thugs/Traps to try and see how it compares with my IOed Bots/Trap.
I've often heard that thugs leads in AoE power.
But hey, every set has its advantages, right? Bots get up to 12 defense from shield that are double stacked on 4 of their bots.
Then I talked to a Thugs/Dark who was attempting to get crazy tank stats and learned that enforcer maneuvers are actually stronger. And stack to EVERY thug. And in a team each thug set buffs every other thug set. And they can slot recharge sets to get 10% def and 20% res.
The only advantage I can think of that the "tank" set has over them is the occasional protector heal (plus cold/psi res), and that you get a personal shield of 12%.
But what about other sets that can debuff enemies? Oh, thugs can do that too? And they get +tohit as well?
Ninjas! They get an inherent defense bonus... which is less than enforcer maneuvers.
What about synergy? Dark is better at a distance but poison has a power that works in melee... oh they get both.
But what about that set that gets a tankish boss, scourge, and fury? Oh, that IS the thugs set.
So, am I not getting something here? Certainly theme is a strong reason to be some other set, but I'm talking about power advantages.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!