Is there a reason to be anything other than thugs?
By
Agonus,
Posted on: 2009-07-21 01:35 in Masterminds
I would normally agree with you on this, especially with MM's as ANY MM pretty much plows through early content but for some reason bots feels glacial to me. It may totally be a perception issue - I suspect they are a little slower than my favorite sets and the fact that I don't really see things speeding up until L26 at best, L32 at the worst, lowers my willingness to plow on through.
Does kill speed go up once you get the protector bots? Every thing i have read about them so far makes them appear as a mostly defensive pet, which is part of what turns me off the set early on.
The way I play if I know that something cool is going to come up in the next couple of levels I can tolerate the rougher, less cool levels - but I have to get something nice every few levels. The cool stuff can come in the primary OR secondary so that may be part of the problem - curently I am not in the mood to replay any secondaries for which I already have a character and the last secondary i tried with bots (/TA) is kinda slow and boring until you get to level 20 and get acid arrow.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
Protector Bots do good damage. I slot them with as much damage as any other pet.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
[ QUOTE ]
The biggest problem I have with a lot of the primaries is the pre/post 32 issue. I don't like a set that is either meh or under performing for 32 levels and then awesome after that - its one of the reason I don't play many controller sets (other than illusion and mind). I tend to get bored with most of my characters in the high 30's/low 40's anyways so having to put up with suckitude for 5/6 of the life of my character just doesn't go over with me.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's really not a fair assessment for ANY Mastermind, really. I won't deny that some powersets are better than others, but I've played most of them and NONE can be said to suck. The whole AT is overpowered. You couldn't suck if you bit on a jet engine. When an AT has damage, survivability, support and often control all neatly wrapped together in one package and can often FORGET it has a secondary, you're never going to suck.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The biggest problem I have with a lot of the primaries is the pre/post 32 issue. I don't like a set that is either meh or under performing for 32 levels and then awesome after that - its one of the reason I don't play many controller sets (other than illusion and mind). I tend to get bored with most of my characters in the high 30's/low 40's anyways so having to put up with suckitude for 5/6 of the life of my character just doesn't go over with me.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's really not a fair assessment for ANY Mastermind, really. I won't deny that some powersets are better than others, but I've played most of them and NONE can be said to suck. The whole AT is overpowered. You couldn't suck if you bit on a jet engine. When an AT has damage, survivability, support and often control all neatly wrapped together in one package and can often FORGET it has a secondary, you're never going to suck.
[/ QUOTE ]
Very true, but in the end whether or not I can play a set really boils down to perception, a lot of which has as much to do with the way the set compares to other sets in the same AT as it does to other AT's in the game. Any MM may solo faster than a corruptor or dominator but compared to my thugs MM's my robots feel slow - so I would rather play thugs.
ultimately my dissatisfaction with robots boils down to how they compare to the other primaries. With thugs and mercs you have fairly fast recharging attacks (3/6 second recharge) and in the case of thugs they fire fairly quickly as well. Merc attacks have a slower activation but the dot nature of thier attacks makes it feel like you get more out of the attack. With robots you get slow attacks (4/8 second recharge) with fairly slow activations (2 seconds for laser burst, 3.33 seconds for heavy laser burst). Both the slower recharge and attack activation make them FEEL less powerful and slow compared to thugs or mercs, even if they really aren't. Perhaps once you get more bots at 12 things will get better but so far I haven't been able to get myself to slog through to that point.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
[ QUOTE ]
As for active - I do nothing BUT active MM'ing. I firmly believe in staying in bodyguard mode as long as possible and pretty much only play secondaries that let me keep attention on myself. Storm and traps are my favorite so far - I like dark as well but find it TOO easy, I like things to be somewhat challenging. I have a necro/pain at L30 on whom I took provoke and use that and my veteran attack to pull and keep aggro as long as possible.
[/ QUOTE ]
Personally, I find that Masterminds have Mastermind henchmen controls for a reason. While it's technically possible to run around in Bodyguard mode and support, I find that to be an inferior tactic for at least some situations. Control of the henchmen is vital, in my eyes, both to keep them from running of gaining extra aggro, dropping off cliffs, following runners and so forth, as well as to ensure you keep your henchmen inside the radius of whatever buffs/debuffs you've laid down. Can't count on how many times I've had to force my henchmen on passive and back over the DAMN Triage Beacon and next to the Acid Mortar.
As well, things like Caltrops, Burn patches, Rikti Monkey gas, Titan Missile Swarms and so forth, can cause henchmen to run around like idiots, running for miles and either getting themselves killed or bringing lots of extra aggro with them. Sometimes it's a lot easier to just watch, say, Longbow Flamethrowers or Scrapyarder Demolitionist and move-order your henchmen just as the Burn patches are spawning. It takes a second for the "BE STUPID!" command to overtake the AI, and if you're quick about it, you can get them out before it happens.
Speaking of Burn patches, some things are DEADLY to Masterminds in a very big way, much more so they are for any other AT, and it's often best for them to DIE DIE DIE first. Hell, a couple of Longbow Flamethrower minions gave me more trouble than bloody Miss Liberty! Focusing fire on them so they can die before they do too much damage, or, ideally, before they get a shot off at all, is often important, or at the very least very helpful.
I'm not dissing Tankerminding, of course, but there is plenty of merit to be had in controlling your henchmen.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I find that Masterminds have Mastermind henchmen controls for a reason. While it's technically possible to run around in Bodyguard mode and support, I find that to be an inferior tactic for at least some situations. Control of the henchmen is vital, in my eyes, both to keep them from running of gaining extra aggro, dropping off cliffs, following runners and so forth, as well as to ensure you keep your henchmen inside the radius of whatever buffs/debuffs you've laid down. Can't count on how many times I've had to force my henchmen on passive and back over the DAMN Triage Beacon and next to the Acid Mortar.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, you know, I pretty much do this as well - my previous comment was in response to a specific issue and I didn't feel like I should go into a long, multi paragraph description about how I play my MM's. While there are certainly tricks I haven't come across yet (which is why I read the forums) I am willing to use anything that works and definitely won't stick with things that don't work - like standing around in BG mode when a demolitionist lays a burn patch on your pets (well, I still haven't come up with a really good way to deal with demolitionist since they can pretty much drop burn patches at will - although I have found that running up to melee range before they aggro sometimes causes them to skip the firebombs and go into melee).
I may need to stop making comments in this thread - everything I say seems to be to easily taken out of context and I don't want to have to spend forever explaining what I really meant.
Sidenote: An interesting thing I just recently discovered about acid mortar is that while it has a long range it will only fire at mobs reasonably close to you - so if you have an enemy that it isn't currently hitting, moving up to the target helps.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
[ QUOTE ]
Sidenote: An interesting thing I just recently discovered about acid mortar is that while it has a long range it will only fire at mobs reasonably close to you - so if you have an enemy that it isn't currently hitting, moving up to the target helps.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm... That's good to know. My Traps Mastermind is also Mercs, so I tend to stay at long range, but I'll definitely try that. I'm tired of losing Acid Mortars to knockback + Web Grenade.
And I wasn't really trying to criticise your playstyle, so much as I DO agree that Thugs are a LOT more control-intensive than some other sets, specifically for the Bruiser. I don't know if his AI has been fixed (I pray that it has) but getting him into melee was pretty much ALL I ever did on my Thugs/Dark Mastermind last I played him. I mean forget about the rest of the henchmen, forget about my secondary. Everything I had to do was stand around and make sure the Bruiser is in melee range.
One day, I hope melee henchmen will learn to GOD DAMN GO IN MELEE and maybe then I'll be able to have some freedom of action, but until then... Ugh.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
The bruiser AI is a LOT better these days. He opens up with hurl, then closes to use his melee attacks pretty consistently. I only have problems with him and my arsonist when the current foes scatter a lot and they follow the one they are agroed on out of range of my buffs. The flying longbow minions are really bad about that and frequently force me to pull everyone back together and then focus on individual targets, slipping out of BG mode.
I can see how you would want to keep things at range with mercs but with my thugs I close up on foe groups a lot more and rely on poison trap, seeker drones or caltrops (in a pinch) to soften the alpha - thus keeping my arsonist and bruiser in buff range more often.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
[ QUOTE ]
And the Assault Bot has -Regen which is pretty useful if not overpowered in tough boss/AV/hero fights.
[/ QUOTE ]Actually, the -regen from Assbot doesn't do much. He's got two attacks which each have a chance to apply -50% regen. Twilight Grasp is a guaranteed -50%, and it can self-stack... and it's in the same set as Howling Twilight, which is -500% regen. Envenom is also a stackable guaranteed -50%. Traps.Poison Trap is -1000% and can be made permanent.
And all of those regen debuffs pale in comparison to nearly any amount of -resistance.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It is no coincidence that every MM pet class has ample knockback powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've wanted to ask about your sig and what that means.
Why do they? Proponents of KB usually say that it just takes skill, but there is no way to use that KB strategically.
[/ QUOTE ]Of course, that quote isn't true any more. Thugs have very little KB (50% chance to single target from Bruiser's Hurl), Ninjas have some (60% chance to single target from Genin's Crane Kick), and Zombies have none.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
[ QUOTE ]
I like dark as well but find it TOO easy, I like things to be somewhat challenging.
[/ QUOTE ]
Try Ninja/Dark then. I have one at level 33 and I find that one pretty challenging. Maybe its me, since that was my first Ninja combo, but my pets keep getting torn up. 
Well, by comparison.
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
Now that Handclap is Knock up, the only set with KB issues is Bots.
Quite a big issue since Bots rely so much on Burn patch damage.
[ QUOTE ]
Now that Handclap is Knock up, the only set with KB issues is Bots.
Quite a big issue since Bots rely so much on Burn patch damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
use Electifying Fences from Mu Mastery, stops knockback.
[ QUOTE ]
As far as mercs vs thugs, it's all situational really. In a pure damage output scenario, the thugs are superior. They simply do more damage. Especially now that they changed the bruiser's handclap to knockDOWN rather than knockback. Mercs, imo, need a little bit of tweaking. The spec ops' controls need to have their recharge cut in half, and the soldiers' damage bumped up just a bit, say 10-15%. Those two changes would pretty much "fix" the merc set, in my mind.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, they would also need to have their cones widened. A five foot cone is pretty pathetic when the rest of the other ranged pets have at least 15 or higher.
Mercs have lots of numbers (Yay for minion full auto) and can take lots of Achilles'? You can use them safely in BG mode (It DOES work with Defensive GoTo) and stay away from the group so they don't get hit by AoEs.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like dark as well but find it TOO easy, I like things to be somewhat challenging.
[/ QUOTE ]
Try Ninja/Dark then. I have one at level 33 and I find that one pretty challenging. Maybe its me, since that was my first Ninja combo, but my pets keep getting torn up. Well, by comparison.
Lewis
[/ QUOTE ]
I think the primary reason i found /dark to be easy mode is because I tried it with mercs and thugs - with the ranged emphasis the pets stayed around you in close proximity so the heal hit them all. With melee pets it would still work provided ALL the pets went into melee and you followed them. Unfortunately even with the latest pet changes some still tend to hang back, which lowers the benefit of the heal. Shadowfall also complimented mercs well by filling in some of the resistance gaps.
I have thought about playing a ninja/ff under that theory that the boringness of FF would be offset by all the pet control I would have to do to maximize the melee damage AND that stacking FF with what little def the ninja's get would produce maximum survivability (for ninja's at least). However I haven't come up with a good character name/costume yet and I won't play something without a good concept.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
[ QUOTE ]
Mercs have lots of numbers (Yay for minion full auto) and can take lots of Achilles'? You can use them safely in BG mode (It DOES work with Defensive GoTo) and stay away from the group so they don't get hit by AoEs.
[/ QUOTE ]
The Soldier's Full Auto Assault is only a 5ft Cone. They do a lot of numbers, but most of them will only be one target at a time.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Now that Handclap is Knock up, the only set with KB issues is Bots.
Quite a big issue since Bots rely so much on Burn patch damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
use Electifying Fences from Mu Mastery, stops knockback.
[/ QUOTE ]
I do but, to be honest, Fences suck. Short range (40) and a tiny radius (10). Unless the mods are shoulder to shoulder you can barely get more then 2 or 3. The Black Scorpion AOE is 15 yards (which for circles translates into more then double the area).
Bots are the only primary that HAS to go with Mu.
Since I have come back to CoH Thugs I have noticed:
1. 2 extra Pet Auras (along with Necro)
2. Handclap being KU
3. Bruiser AI much better (hardly use my GoTo anymore)
4. Hurl Boulder much faster animation time
Thugs were a top set before, now they are better then ever. Basically all the problems the set had have been reduced or eliminated.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Now that Handclap is Knock up, the only set with KB issues is Bots.
Quite a big issue since Bots rely so much on Burn patch damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
use Electifying Fences from Mu Mastery, stops knockback.
[/ QUOTE ]
I do but, to be honest, Fences suck. Short range (40) and a tiny radius (10). Unless the mods are shoulder to shoulder you can barely get more then 2 or 3. The Black Scorpion AOE is 15 yards (which for circles translates into more then double the area).
Bots are the only primary that HAS to go with Mu.
Since I have come back to CoH Thugs I have noticed:
1. 2 extra Pet Auras (along with Necro)
2. Handclap being KU
3. Bruiser AI much better (hardly use my GoTo anymore)
4. Hurl Boulder much faster animation time
Thugs were a top set before, now they are better then ever. Basically all the problems the set had have been reduced or eliminated.
[/ QUOTE ]
Or you could learn to play your bots and utilize the KB effectively instead of feeling like you have to fight against it.
but you know...to each his own
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And the Assault Bot has -Regen which is pretty useful if not overpowered in tough boss/AV/hero fights.
[/ QUOTE ]Actually, the -regen from Assbot doesn't do much. He's got two attacks which each have a chance to apply -50% regen. Twilight Grasp is a guaranteed -50%, and it can self-stack... and it's in the same set as Howling Twilight, which is -500% regen. Envenom is also a stackable guaranteed -50%. Traps.Poison Trap is -1000% and can be made permanent.
And all of those regen debuffs pale in comparison to nearly any amount of -resistance.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just a little nitpick, but Assault Bot only has 1 attack that has a 30% chance for -500% regen for 30s. The Plasma Blast he starts with. Not that I disagree with you mind. -res is awesome.
[ QUOTE ]
Or you could learn to play your bots and utilize the KB effectively instead of feeling like you have to fight against it.
but you know...to each his own
[/ QUOTE ]
I even hear some people take Scorpions cone for even more knockback! 
or use the knockup/-back powers from FF to... control
And in the end, they use force wall to pin the mobs against walls, so all that knockback is basically knockdown, and the whole gang is nicely stacked on on the burn patches and the other AoE goodness.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Or you could learn to play your bots and utilize the KB effectively instead of feeling like you have to fight against it.
but you know...to each his own
[/ QUOTE ]
I even hear some people take Scorpions cone for even more knockback!
or use the knockup/-back powers from FF to... control
And in the end, they use force wall to pin the mobs against walls, so all that knockback is basically knockdown, and the whole gang is nicely stacked on on the burn patches and the other AoE goodness.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yup. It's really pretty easy to be honest.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Or you could learn to play your bots and utilize the KB effectively instead of feeling like you have to fight against it.
but you know...to each his own
[/ QUOTE ]
I even hear some people take Scorpions cone for even more knockback!
or use the knockup/-back powers from FF to... control
And in the end, they use force wall to pin the mobs against walls, so all that knockback is basically knockdown, and the whole gang is nicely stacked on on the burn patches and the other AoE goodness.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yup. It's really pretty easy to be honest.
[/ QUOTE ]
I now have a bot/ff and a bot/traps... Controlling with the force bubble is amazingly easy, incredibly effective, and a lot of fun.
Honestly though? My new /traps has a much easier time with just about everything. I've got -res and -def for the hard to hit/damage, -regen for EB/AVs, my bots are almost stoftcapped defense but the -tohit from seeker drones more than makes up for it, and the triage beacon makes my bots over the top durable. Caltrops and webnades are enough to hold enemies in nice groups for the burn patches.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Or you could learn to play your bots and utilize the KB effectively instead of feeling like you have to fight against it.
but you know...to each his own
[/ QUOTE ]
I even hear some people take Scorpions cone for even more knockback!
or use the knockup/-back powers from FF to... control
And in the end, they use force wall to pin the mobs against walls, so all that knockback is basically knockdown, and the whole gang is nicely stacked on on the burn patches and the other AoE goodness.
[/ QUOTE ]
And what about my other points? Or do you just pick the points you think you have an answer and ignore the rest hoping no one will notice?
[ QUOTE ]
As for robots - I REALLY want to love them but around L10 or so I just get bored to tears - there is no way I can stomach another 22 levels of that boredom just to get a cool AE spewing assault bot.
[/ QUOTE ]
I just can't understand this when I hear it, which I have from time to time. Two of the last 4 toons I've been working on are Bots/* MMs and both times they seemed to level up at an easy running pace, "Oh look, I just leveled again - sweet!" I started to feel like hell on wheels by the time I had only two teir one bots and one single ProtBot. From there on up every other additional bot and upgrade for them was just an extra couple inches of thick creamy icing on the awesome cake.
With as fast as people can level these days (even not counting MA), the so-called "slow periods" or under performing stretches just don't seem to last at all to me, certainly not long enough for me to even really notice them. Then again - dunno about the other posters - I'm not a bean counter when it comes to performance, DPS figured out down to the fraction, etc.