Is there a reason to be anything other than thugs?
By
Agonus,
Posted on: 2009-07-21 01:35 in Masterminds
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haha and I simply chose my Thugs/Dark for RP/concept reasons
Old Dirty Bast##d from da Wu Tang Clan! Natural so no travel powers(I use the Jet pack)
all his DArk ness powers come from puffin on da chiba chiba.. Fluffy is really his cousin Tito that smokes too damn much! Fearsome Stare works because he yells "BROOKLYN ZOO STAND STILL OR ELSE" at mobs and they cower in fright!
hah
MM's in general are one of the best classes COH has to offer no doubt
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Something tells me that Tito isn't the only one who is smoking too damn much...
The last poster I saw who was giving defense stats for the Thugs that makes them comparable to Bots was using Purple IOs. Which means that essentially when you get to 50, Thugs can have as much defense as Bots. But when Bots gets to 50, it is doing as much or more damage than Thugs. (Depending on how much Burn Patch herding you do) So all you're really saying is that at really high levels their differences even out.
Prior to 50 the differences are obvious. Bots is the lowest in terms of damage, really having to struggle to get through 18-20, but has stronger shields at low level, and Lethal resistance. Those Manuevers that are stronger on Thugs, by the way, scale due to level, but Force Shield doesn't. So that's true only after 25, prior to 25 Bots have the stronger shield. Personally, I don't know why there is this difference, my guess it that it is an oversight. If Bots scaled to level as Thugs does, the gap would be much less.
Most people who compare the defense of Thugs to Bots also drastically underestimate healing, usually by their own admission. The argument is usually "My Bots die before they can get healed". I've never had that problem, and the constant healing of my Bots means that 90% of the time I don't have to. Or at the very least, I can concentrate on healing a Bot that I can't afford to lose without having to worry about the rest. My Bots is also paired with Traps, which is not capable of healing as much as Dark, and I took Aid Other instead of Repair. So I have about as much healing capability on my Thugs/Dark, and have my Dark Servant to heal like with my Proto Bots. There is an upper limit on the usefulness of healing, though, so I think the balance is about right.
The Bruiser definately has far more resistance than the Assault Bot, but he also has to move into melee to attack. So he's certainly going to be better at tanking. OTOH, with Bots, you are going to be better at tanking, since you get a Force Bubble of your own. So Bots lends itself more to the Tankermind strategy, while Thugs lends itself more to sending the Bruiser in to tank. (Which is exactly how I use him)
As for the other Mastermind Primaries, they really aren't up to the level of Thugs and Bots, and that's pretty well known. Necro is pretty resiliant, past 32 each henchman has the ability to heal HIMSELF, and they all have debuffs. Ninjas do far more single target damage than any other Primary, their damage is pretty high to start with, and Criticals really put them over the top. Both Ninjas and Necro have to be in melee to deal their damage, though, so you have to either Tankermind to draw aggro off of them, or react quickly to the attrition.
I think this is actually how the devs intended MMs to work originally, note that if a henchman dies and you resummon him, you have in effect healed the taken damage. In practice it doesn't work as well as intended, though, so I think the devs have made Necro and Ninjas a little weaker defensively than they should be. At least now Necro can get those Purple IOs, and Ninjas I see as a sort of Stalker strategy, you're better off pulling and striking with surprise instead of using the usual steamroller strategy.
Mercs has its own unique features, but the last analysis I did put them well behind the others. That may have changed with tweaks to the AI, but I still think Mercs is really just a concept Set. I do enjoy playing my Mercs/Poison, though. And they are the only Primary that has smashing and lethal resistance across the board.
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It is no coincidence that every MM pet class has ample knockback powers.
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I've wanted to ask about your sig and what that means.
Why do they? Proponents of KB usually say that it just takes skill, but there is no way to use that KB strategically.
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My sig was just annoyance at having half of the powers in the sets more or less require the mobs to be close together for maximum effectiveness (burn patches especially, but even with the big cones like Full Auto, Full Auto Laser, etc...), and have the other half of the powers cause 20 or 40% knockback AoEs to scatter the mobs out as randomly as possible.
The idea of "tactically" using a 20% knockback AoE is pretty funny too.
Picking up Scirocco's tiny little AoE Immob shows just how powerful the bots would be if it were not for the knockback though. Using it as the alpha can shave tens of seconds off of taking apart each spawn just because it avoids the random scattering, especially with very large spawns on teams and doubly so on big empty outdoor maps where mobs hit with knockback go flying for miles.
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haha and I simply chose my Thugs/Dark for RP/concept reasons
Old Dirty Bast##d from da Wu Tang Clan! Natural so no travel powers(I use the Jet pack)
all his DArk ness powers come from puffin on da chiba chiba.. Fluffy is really his cousin Tito that smokes too damn much! Fearsome Stare works because he yells "BROOKLYN ZOO STAND STILL OR ELSE" at mobs and they cower in fright!
hah
MM's in general are one of the best classes COH has to offer no doubt
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Something tells me that Tito isn't the only one who is smoking too damn much...
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make love not war I say.. unless you're playing an MMO!
Zombies do not suck, they are the polar opposite of bots when leveling though, they do good damage all the way through, but have crappy survivability till 32, after 32 every pet has a self heal and the lich has some crazy control. You can also put the 2 recharge pet uniques in soul extraction now too.
Grave knights do some of the best single target damage available, pretty amazing to seem them build up with the purple pet unique then do a headsplitter crit. And soul extractions lets you have as many pets as the recharge allows, so with enough recharge sets you can have more pets than any other set(I dont count gangwar).
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The double Maneuvers don't need to be constantly refreshed plus both T2 pets get double stacks.
Gang War > Repair because Gang War can take the two recharge pet uniques giving your pets +10 Resistance and +5% defense. No other primary can do that.
I'm working on getting a IOed Thugs/Traps to try and see how it compares with my IOed Bots/Trap.
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You know Necro can do that as well, right? Soul Extraction lets you put the Recharge Intensive Pet Aura Uniques in it. So no, Thugs isn't the only set that can do it.
Also, if you're /Dark, it can be done with any primary.
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Also, if you're /Dark, it can be done with any primary.
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You know they just changed that on test, right? No more RIP sets in Dark Servant.
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Also, if you're /Dark, it can be done with any primary.
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You know they just changed that on test, right? No more RIP sets in Dark Servant.
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Yikes, that sucks. Haven't copied either of my MM's to test.
The only high-lvl MM I don't have is Robot but I've seen so many of them that I think I know what they are capable of.
Basically, I think Thug is the "best" one in most situations. The design is just nearly perfect.
1. You have a boss pet that can tank a bit and draw aggro. The melee boss pet fits even better with secondaries like /Poison (Noxious Gas) and /Pain (Pain Bringer).
2. Thug even fits fine with "difficult" secondary like Trick Arrow (fire damage for Oil Slick), unlike Necro and Nina.
3. Thug stacks defense with other Enforcers.
4. Thug actually has a decent lvl 18 power in Gang War, unlike that awful Serum.
When I look at all the pros of Thug, it really is the best set in most situations. Sure it has some cons like mostly lethal damage (so is Merc!) and lack of defense in tier 1 (but Bruiser can draw more aggro and it's not like Genins survive so well...), but if you lvl a Thug and then lvl a Ninja, you'll know Thug is better especially on a large team.
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If you are min/maxer, Thug is definitely a great choice. Other sets are not UNPLAYABLE so you do have other reasons to play non-Thug, like "I want something different!"
I am one of those who dislike using something that is too popular. I gave up my lvl 37 Thug/Trap because it was too good.
If you are into PvP, I think I'll choose Merc and Necro over Thug.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Yeah but Necro is fairly meh as Primaries go.
Before I took some time off CoH (about 9 months) Bots used to be able to compete with Thugs because you could put the Force Feedback unique in the ABot. While he did go crazy sometimes he would absolutely spam missiles. Since he is by far your biggest damage dealers as Bots it was a big deal. While he is still good now you certainly feel the lag time between missile launches.
The other thing Bots had was unrivaled survivability but with Thugs getting access to the 2 new pet uniques its not so clear anymore. Thugs can easily pass hit and pass the def softcap which is a big deal since the last 5% of defense really do make a big difference.
Bots and Thugs used to be neck and neck. But with Bots getting their damage reduced and Thugs getting tougher there is a gap now.
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The best reason is that some of us aren't number crunching bean counters when it comes to the game and like to play it, not over analyze it. ...
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Dangnabbit. Don't have enough quoting space left in my signature. >.<
Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
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Thugs can easily pass hit and pass the def softcap which is a big deal since the last 5% of defense really do make a big difference.
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Gang War can take the new Pet unique? Damn.. "LoL Ninjas..."
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Thugs can easily pass hit and pass the def softcap which is a big deal since the last 5% of defense really do make a big difference.
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Gang War can take the new Pet unique? Damn.. "LoL Ninjas..."
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Yup - my thugs/traps has had softcapped pets since she got manuevers at L30. FFG + manuevers (unslotted even)plus the two +def uniques and a single def IO in enforcers was all it took.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
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Thugs can easily pass hit and pass the def softcap which is a big deal since the last 5% of defense really do make a big difference.
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Gang War can take the new Pet unique? Damn.. "LoL Ninjas..."
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Yup - my thugs/traps has had softcapped pets since she got manuevers at L30. FFG + manuevers (unslotted even)plus the two +def uniques and a single def IO in enforcers was all it took.
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But Genin has 7% Defense to all!!!!
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Unfortunately the recent CoH inflation has left my lowbie Thug/Traps relatively poor i'm almost softcapped on Def as well.
3 lvl 30 IOs in FFG, 2 in Enforcers and only one unique. If I can get my hands on a 2nd i'll be at around 48 Def. That means i'll be able to drop one of the +Def IOs in Enforcers (slots are tight with them).
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I wrote up a huge post here responding with hard stats but it was blocked by the damnable "the form you submitted" error.
The summary:
wumpusrat, some of what you are saying is disputed by City of Data, particularly the bruiser's resists. You can only use recharge sets with the thugs and zombies sets. Thug resists are better than you think, only beaten by mercs unless you are fighting an enemy with exotic attacks. And other sets' mez protection is mostly about PVP centic mez types. Bots mez protection is 1 point of stun and 4 points of sleep otherwise.
It may sound like it, but I am not saying that thugs pwns everything. However, it has most of the advantages of bots and mercs combined but none of the disadvantages.
Most notably, it has more defense and similar, but differently distributed resists to bots, especially with recharge sets.
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The bruiser has 26% smash/lethal, and a smattering of single-digit resists to a couple other things (fire, toxic, and cold I believe). So does the commando from the mercs. The oni from the ninja set has 26% smash/lethal and 52% fire resist, as well as some defense, making him hands-down the toughest tier-3 pet. The assault bot has 26% resist to cold/psi/lethal, and the lich has negative, toxic and cold resist of 26%, making him the 'squishiest' of the tier-3 pets, but his controls generally make up for it, not to mention his lifetaps.
So while the bruiser is "tough", he's hardly a "tank". When I said he doesn't have any more resists than the other pets, what I meant was that he was not a "tank"; his resists are comparable to the other pets, while some have more than he does. You made it sound like his resists were HIGHER than the other pets, which is what I had issue with. 
And I wouldn't say that thugs have "none of the disadvantages". Again, you seem to be overestimating them, and ignoring their own weaknesses. The tier-1 thugs have zero resists (other than the arsonist having some fire resist), the tier-2's only have lethal resist. They have no status protection at all.
Also, bear in mind that generally the bruiser is not going to benefit from the maneuvers aura of the enforcers, unless you're standing right on top of the fight. The aura radius is about 40 feet or so. I used to have a screenshot of my two enforcers standing at the exact distance apart for their maneuvers to still work, and it wasn't that far. A lot further than the fight is generally happening. So, typically the bruiser is going to be "on his own" as far as benefiting from the enforcers.
Additionally, I actually find the prot bots' bubbles to be superior to the enforcers maneuvers, for one reason: it doesn't drop when a bot gets out of range. The moment one of your pets steps outside the maneuvers radius, they lose all the extra benefits that the enforcers give them. This is one of the reasons the arsonist tends to die so often (that, and because he's using AE attacks which draw a lot of aggro, and he's got zero resists to most damage).
Thugs rely a LOT more on the mastermind to back them up than some other sets (most notably bots and necro), due to the fact that they're built purely as damage-output, with little else. They have almost zero controls (the only ones being gained with the upgraded bruiser), whereas other sets have numerous controls to back up their damage.
As I said, thugs ARE a powerful set. But you honestly do seem to be trying to make them out to be the single best set, hands down, and that's what I disagree with. Thugs are the "one trick pony" of the pet world: they do damage, and nothing else. While this makes them SEEM like they're more powerful, they don't have the versatility or breadth of powers that the other sets have to compensate for their slightly lower damage.
The Mastermind Project
Leveling every primary/secondary to 50!
50: Bot/FF, Bot/Dark, Ninja/Trap, Merc/Pain, Necro/Dark, Thug/Dark
Works in Progress: Thug/TA, Merc/Poison, Thug/Pain, Ninja/Pain, Thug/Storm
*sigh* You're not the only one trying to point that out.
But... well, you know... DPS PWNZ0RZ ALL!!!11
In my opinion Mercs are pretty much completely eclipsed by Thugs(Not a stretch of the imagination), but other than that Necro, Robotics and Ninjas all have their place and strengths next to Thugs; Thugs is definitely not the superior set(especially if you account for AI).
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In my opinion Mercs are pretty much completely eclipsed by Thugs(Not a stretch of the imagination), but other than that Necro, Robotics and Ninjas all have their place and strengths next to Thugs; Thugs is definitely not the superior set(especially if you account for AI).
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Huh? Is this number crunching or actual game play? I find my Mercs just as easy ( if not easier ) to kill with than my Thugs.
When you account for DPS and pure damage you have to account for things like Bruiser A.D.D ( spending half the fight not actually killing but running back and forth) Arsonist causing huge scatter and then having to chase things down only to die out of range.
Mercs have none of these issues so they spend more time damaging foes non stop.
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Yeah but Necro is fairly meh as Primaries go.
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Pre-32? Perhaps, but post-32? Being able to fear an entire mob with the help with my upgraded Lich? That's pretty hot.
Pre-32 I was very unimpressed with the necro set. Once I got the last upgrade, though, everything changed. They suddenly became a VERY potent set, and a lot more fun. Plus the grave knights started doing some majorly sick damage. Critical headsplitter ftw.
As far as mercs vs thugs, it's all situational really. In a pure damage output scenario, the thugs are superior. They simply do more damage. Especially now that they changed the bruiser's handclap to knockDOWN rather than knockback. Mercs, imo, need a little bit of tweaking. The spec ops' controls need to have their recharge cut in half, and the soldiers' damage bumped up just a bit, say 10-15%. Those two changes would pretty much "fix" the merc set, in my mind.
The Mastermind Project
Leveling every primary/secondary to 50!
50: Bot/FF, Bot/Dark, Ninja/Trap, Merc/Pain, Necro/Dark, Thug/Dark
Works in Progress: Thug/TA, Merc/Poison, Thug/Pain, Ninja/Pain, Thug/Storm
The biggest problem I have with a lot of the primaries is the pre/post 32 issue. I don't like a set that is either meh or under performing for 32 levels and then awesome after that - its one of the reason I don't play many controller sets (other than illusion and mind). I tend to get bored with most of my characters in the high 30's/low 40's anyways so having to put up with suckitude for 5/6 of the life of my character just doesn't go over with me.
I find thugs and merc's fun all the way up to 32 and beyond so far and wouldn't actually rate one over the other despite the AE advantage of thugs. I can stand necromancy - if only because its so cool to watch your zombies puke on everything. So far ninja have been to squishy for me to even try so I can't say how they fit on the pre/post 32 scale. As for robots - I REALLY want to love them but around L10 or so I just get bored to tears - there is no way I can stomach another 22 levels of that boredom just to get a cool AE spewing assault bot.
I hope the new set coming in going rogue is a lot more even over all levels like thugs and mercs - if it is I will have another set I love to play.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
Well, first of all, Assbot comes a lot earlier.
I found myself kinda underimpressed by my Bots until I got my third bot. After that, the set was a blast. I really had the feeling of getting a -lot- more efficient each time I gained another power. The trend continued til Lvl 49.
One thing that changed my perception of the set was when I switched from a "let the pets do the work" to a more agressive, tankerminding, style. Depending on secondary and playing style, YMMV.
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Well, first of all, Assbot comes a lot earlier.
I found myself kinda underimpressed by my Bots until I got my third bot. After that, the set was a blast. I really had the feeling of getting a -lot- more efficient each time I gained another power. The trend continued til Lvl 49.
One thing that changed my perception of the set was when I switched from a "let the pets do the work" to a more agressive, tankerminding, style. Depending on secondary and playing style, YMMV.
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Yea - you get the assbot at L26 but every post about it I have seen also mentions that all the crazy good AE comes with the second pet buff at L32.
As for active - I do nothing BUT active MM'ing. I firmly believe in staying in bodyguard mode as long as possible and pretty much only play secondaries that let me keep attention on myself. Storm and traps are my favorite so far - I like dark as well but find it TOO easy, I like things to be somewhat challenging. I have a necro/pain at L30 on whom I took provoke and use that and my veteran attack to pull and keep aggro as long as possible.
So far I have tried bots/traps and a bots/TA. The bots/traps was actually my first mastermind ever - way back at the CoV release. My initial experience was so bad it was like another year before I even tried another mastermind. Now I freely admit that back then I knew nothing about playing MM's and recognize that the experience was probably quite different 7-8 issue ago, which is why I recently tried a bots/TA since /TA is the only secondary I haven't tried seriously yet and I do love my /TA controllers. She is currently languishing at L10 because the tier 1 bots feel like they take forever to do anything. I solo perfectly safely with her at difficulty 2 - between glue arrow and entangling arrow I can keep most mobs at range and let the bots kill them but compared to my thugs and mercs at that level the bots feel glacial.
As a comparsin here are the MM combo's I have played and liked:
Thugs/Dark: got to L25 or so, decided it was too easy, rerolled
Thugs/Traps: Currently my primary MM, L34 - she is a blast to play.
Thugs/Storm: First storm attempt, L20, liked them but decided i didn't need another thugs
Mercs/Dark: L32, enjoyed it but again too easy. Still have the character and may pick up again at some point.
Mercs/Storm: L22, second attempt at /storm, enjoying it a lot.
Necro/Pain: L30, Fun when I am more of a micromanaging mood. Doesn't feel as tough as the mercs or as destructive as thugs (or as tough as my softcapped thugs/traps) but zombie puke is th3 w1n.
I have tried /poison and found it way to single target focused for my taste. I haven't tried /FF but I have no interest in it whatsoever.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
haha and I simply chose my Thugs/Dark for RP/concept reasons
Old Dirty Bast##d from da Wu Tang Clan! Natural so no travel powers(I use the Jet pack)
all his DArk ness powers come from puffin on da chiba chiba.. Fluffy is really his cousin Tito that smokes too damn much! Fearsome Stare works because he yells "BROOKLYN ZOO STAND STILL OR ELSE" at mobs and they cower in fright!
hah
MM's in general are one of the best classes COH has to offer no doubt