Defenders vs Controller Disparity.
By
Adelie,
Posted on: 2009-07-20 04:50 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Unique is good. Some of the unique suggestions for Vigilance I've seen have been smashing the cottage rule and making it inspiration related. My suggestion: defender insps are PBAoE buffs. Another suggestion I've seen: defenders get a copy of the buff whenever a nearby teammate pops an insp.
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Aren't defenders already awesome on teams? If any buff for a defender should be made, I would think solo performance is where you would want to look.
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This.
Solo friendly is one of the big draws of this game. It's a MMO that I don't NEED a team for the vast majority of the content... which is good, because I suck at building teams.
Having one of the core ATs of the game be so inherently weak at solo play seems... wrong to me. I'm not suggesting they be buffed into solo gods - hell no. They are a support AT. But so are Corruptors, Controllers, and Tankers - and they all have an easier time soloing.
I really do like the scaling endurance reduction idea as a new inherent. But the real fix, I fear, is going to have to be an overhaul of the Defender sets in total... kinda like what recently happened to Dominators, only probably more involved.
-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
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Having one of the core ATs of the game be so inherently weak at solo play seems... wrong to me. I'm not suggesting they be buffed into solo gods - hell no. They are a support AT. But so are Corruptors, Controllers, and Tankers - and they all have an easier time soloing.
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Most defender primaries solo pretty well if they build for it, even FF which does so safely, with decent if not perfect mez protection, but with no way to boost their own damage output.
If only the Devs have given folks the opportunity to have dual builds, one for teaming and one for soloing.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
I will say this the inherent for Defenders is terrible. The inherent for Controllers is what makes Defenders jealous.
1. Vigilence rewards you for doing a bad job.
2. Vigilence is inconsistent so you'll end up slotting like it wasn't there and the benefit is lost.
3. Vigilence does nothing for you while the Defender solo's.
4. Containment adds damage to a Mitigation Primary and Buff/Debuff secondary.
Controllers can be some of the hardest toons to solo because fo their endurance use and their low damage early. But as they get to high level they are clearly the most complete archetype.
Personally, I've always wanted to play Defenders and I've played support roles in other games and enjoyed it. I think that the Defender Primary powers are the most interesting. But I've not enjoyed the game play on Defenders with the exception of my Trick Arrow/Dark. Trick Arrow is a total Debuff set, so it works better than most when I want to solo.
ANSWER: Fix Vigilence with the proper fix and it should balance out. Containment is awesome and Vigilence is inconsistent and terrible, it doesn't even save slots.
Defenders are a little upstaged by controllers, i agree. The problem is, the only real way to fix the situation is to nerf the controller, either it's damage or it's secondary, signifiently. And it won't happen. The dev's buffed the controller damage to compansate for the control nerfs. Alot of us controllers at the time were epicly PO'd at the dissission. I'd rather have been a weak dmg controller, and great control, then a damage dealling controller with joke controls. Even to this day, i speck on the side of team defence and forgo damage.
I don't belive the dev's will flip flop on this. The damage stays. So nerf the secondary? You need to nerf the living hell out of it in order for controllers to be equal to defenders in team support. Control, even weaker control, + buffs/debuffs will aways be better then Buff/debuffs alone, even with higher values. And nerfing the secondays that much would set controllers apart as the only AT secondary isn't 75% there primary... the dev's won't do this either, IMO, because the controler comunity would have a kiniption fit.
Not to mention the fact, that the defender AT is hardly underrepresinted. I see, even to this day, normally more defenders then i do controllers. Teams are always looking for defenders even over controllers. Defenders, when built well, are very awsome. Which is why they won't get buffed... they'd easily become overpowered...
And that's why, IMO, defenders are kind of stuck. Nerfing controllers is out because of the magnutide of the nerfing needed, and buffing defenders is out because they'er already a great at that'd only become overpowered in the process.
The real mistake, was having 2 support classes sharing the same kind of support powersets. Notice they for the most part got it right in CoV? One control damage class... one buff/debuff damage class.. one pet classes is highly reduced secondarys... from the start.
Which is why, alot of people IMO are correct in saying, this won't get fixed till CoH2. Sorry to say.
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
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ANSWER: Fix Vigilence with the proper fix and it should balance out. Containment is awesome and Vigilence is inconsistent and terrible, it doesn't even save slots.
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This IMO is the only thing that the defenders MIGHT have a shot at convincing the dev's to work with. The inherent effect is garbage, and where you should be focusing on getting your buff from. Get something that works alittle bet better and solo, that'll help. But it'll still leave the defenders as second class teamsupport, which is kind of ironic as they are the only AT in the game with team support as a primary. heh.
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
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Either way, how I built the character would not change the fact that the Defender has less than half of the health, damage and defense of the Scrapper.
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If the only possible thing you could do in this game was solo, you would be right. But you're still comparing a character who is designed to solo to one who is designed to team, comparing them in a solo situation, and using that as evidence that Defenders are bad.
Doing damage and surviving damage are not the only two roles in this game. If they were, the only ATs would be Blasters and Tanks. And maybe Scrappers since they do some of both. The other role that you're COMPLETELY ignoring is the role of buffer/debuffer. Scrappers don't do this hardly at all (some do on lower levels, like with Dark's -ACC or Shield's +DEF). This is something Scrappers CAN'T DO and can't compete with Defenders on. Maybe they have higher damage and self-defense, but when was the last time you saw a Scrapper healing the Tank, shielding the Controller, or damage-buffing the Blaster?
Being able to do damage and being unkillable of your own accord are not the only two attributes that matter on a character. Defenders have bonuses that Scrappers can never achieve and bring things to a table that in many situations are more important than having a high base damage or having defense. After all, a good Defender or two can turn BLASTERS into characters who are hard to kill, or buff that Scrapper that you're so fond of so he does max damage.
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That is, they do less damage, and they have less ability to survive damage. Since the game amounts to defeating foes with damage before they defeat you, this is the final measure of playability. You have to be able to do damage or survive damage (or both). Many Defenders can't do this adequately.
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You're twisting the truth here. The fact is that it boils down to killing enemies before they kill you. Defenders, however, offer buffs and debuffs that can make teams do more damage than Scrappers, and be more durable than Scrappers. Why then would they be less useful than a Scrapper? A Defender can turn a Blaster into a tank, and buff a Tank to be a high damage dealer. What about that makes them weaker than a Scrapper?
Again, you're viewing things in a selfish light. A Scrapper excels at soloing in the way that a Defender excels at teaming. There are exceptions to both, but in general, that's how it goes. If you completely ignore the teaming situation, then you are right. But you can't do that and still get the whole picture. What a Defender offers a team, a Scrapper can never do.
You're ignoring part of the picture, and only showing parts where Scrappers excel. You're COMPLETELY ignoring the fact that Defenders can buff themselves and other players, and using the fact that Scrappers have higher stats as proof that Defenders are weaker in every possible way. It's simply not true.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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He's also ignoring that you can take any build using any powerset combo and make it solo friendly. You might be skipping powers to do so, but it can be done. It might be slow as hell before SOs and you may be stuck on the first diff, but thems the breaks.
Choosing a team based archetype and choosing to play it like a solo based archetype has disadvantages. Ignoring that fact is as stupid as driving nails into your own foot.
Be well, people of CoH.
All ATs do as well on teams as Defenders, though it's arguable Defenders bring more to teams. The thing is that no other AT suffers as severely for their contribution to teams.
Tankers bring aggro control, and have the benefit of high health as a result of their role.
Blasters bring pure damage, which benefits them as much when they're solo as when they're teamed.
Scrappers bring boss-killing criticals, which benefits them as much solo as when teamed.
Controllers have controls, which equates to defense for themselves and the team.
Defenders that debuff benefit the team with their debuffs, which also help the Defender solo;
Defenders with Buffs can buff the team, but largely cannot buff themselves, which hampers them solo.
BillZ:
I didn't say that. Please don't put words in my mouth. And I agree insomnia sucks.
Luminara:
My thread said there was a disparity between Defenders and Scrappers. This thread says there's a disparity between Defenders and Controllers. There certainly seems to be a similarity there.
I don't appreciate the attempt to demonize me by describing my discussion as some kind of "ruse." You obviously don't know my intent in anything I've posted so please don't presume to judge my intent for yourself or anyone else.
StratoNexus:
Actually, I'm forced to build a Defender if I want to make a character with certain kinds of abilities. In my case, I'm playing a Defender because I want to play a character with blasts and some kind of personal Defense. The only other kind of character with Blasts is a Blaster, and he has NO personal defenses.
However, I definitely do understand the point that what I find fun isn't necessarily what everyone finds fun. That's why I've been trying to look at objective attributes rather than anecdotal situations.
The fact is that buffing Defenders can't buff themselves. No spin anyone puts on it can change this, it's a FACT. The interpretation of this is a bit more subjective, as it seems to me that this fact puts these kinds of characters at a significant disadvantage. Personally, I think this is unfair. I'd just like to see that discrepancy balanced out.
I just haven't worked out how, because there's a lot of variables involved. I mean, you don't want to significantly alter how these sets perform on teams, but you can't simply let the Defender self-buff willy-nilly.
(Man, I totally missed that there was another page! If I ignored your posts, I apologize)
This reminds me of how single tracked Deadliest Warrior on Spike is.
They turned all the would be combatants into roman gladiators whether their native techniques matched that format or not.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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Defenders that debuff benefit the team with their debuffs, which also help the Defender solo;
Defenders with Buffs can buff the team, but largely cannot buff themselves, which hampers them solo.
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This is a large part of the problem, but it is not as difficult to remedy as it appears. Most buff oriented Sets have both ally buffs and self buffs, so it is possible to spread those buffs more evenly, so the Defender gets closer to the same buffs as his allies. It is just that the devs have CHOSEN not to give the Defender those buffs. (Example: the +Def provided by his two ally bubbles could be added to FF's Repulsion Field)
Likely the reason is that debuffs come with a level of risk, and thus are considered less imbalancing than direct defensive buffs to a ranged Archetype. I really think the devs need to rethink their position on this issue however. Or at the very least, consider offensive buffs instead of defensive ones for the caster, such as with Pain Domination.
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He's also ignoring that you can take any build using any powerset combo and make it solo friendly. You might be skipping powers to do so, but it can be done. It might be slow as hell before SOs and you may be stuck on the first diff, but thems the breaks.
Choosing a team based archetype and choosing to play it like a solo based archetype has disadvantages. Ignoring that fact is as stupid as driving nails into your own foot.
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Yup. Totally QFT. Dispari and Bill have it right IMHO.
Oh and by the way, i insist that ANY Defender can solo on Heroic difficulty. I did it. Not saying that it is fun and fast all the time but it certainly can be done.
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
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Oh and by the way, i insist that ANY Defender can solo on Heroic difficulty. I did it. Not saying that it is fun and fast all the time but it certainly can be done.
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I agree with you. I can't think of a single Defender combo that can't solo. Some, like my Kin/Sonic can solo quite well. The question I would ask about that is, "but why would anyone?"
I know that the devs promise that anyone can solo on heroic, but I really don't understand why people pick an AT that is designed to offer many of their advantages to teams and then complain when the AT isn't much of a soloer.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Concept/RP
And masochism. Don't forget masochism.
Be well, people of CoH.
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And masochism. Don't forget masochism.
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Very true. I made a Elm/Da Brute way back in the day for pure concept and forced myself to level him to 50. I haven't played that brute in nearly 2 years because I find it terrible.
Now, I'm sure I'll get many replies about elm/da being awesomeblahblahblahblah.
Delete and reroll. It's better than having a slot filled with something you dislike. Trust Me!
Be well, people of CoH.
Perhaps one day, but I still have 7 or so slots left on Freedom.
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And masochism. Don't forget masochism.
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Very true. I made a Elm/Da Brute way back in the day for pure concept and forced myself to level him to 50. I haven't played that brute in nearly 2 years because I find it terrible.
Now, I'm sure I'll get many replies about elm/da being awesomeblahblahblahblah.
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Heh, i leveled to 50 an Elec/Elec Stalker. Everyone says Elec armor for stalkers sucks and they might be right. But still, even a sucky armor could not prevent me of soloing on Villainous. If you can deal basic damage ( and every AT/Powersets have powers that can do so ) then you can solo on lowest setting.
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
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I agree with you. I can't think of a single Defender combo that can't solo. Some, like my Kin/Sonic can solo quite well. The question I would ask about that is, "but why would anyone?"
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I think the bigger question is "Is it that all ATs can solo on the lowest difficulty, or that the lowest difficulty is made so easy that any AT can solo it?"
Personally, I would say the latter, since the lowest difficulty introduces features, such as reducing Bosses to Lieutenants, and AVs to EBs, that are designed to make a particular mission passable for someone who would not be able to do it otherwise.
I would say the question about whether you can solo on the second difficulty, which is closer to the difficulty level of the game at release, is more relevant.
I think the devs also want to make sure that at least the majority of missions are soloable on the lowest difficulty even if the AT does NOT have a good build, so a character that is built for teaming is not stuck with nothing to do while waiting on a team. So even with a small selection of attacks, and moderate slotting, it should be possible to solo the equivalent of a newspaper mission or a "filler" mission that isn't part of an arc. Saying that any AT can solo such a mission isn't saying much, since the intention of the devs is to ensure it can be soloed.
Of course, you can now switch builds, which has made that a lot easier as well.
I prefer to make controllers because the damage is so much better. It is very hard for me to make and play a defender because damage is so poor. I end up hitting attack after attack after attack to just kill a white con minion. I hate to take on a boss, because it takes so many clicks to kill the blamed thing.
The one advantage I see in defenders over controllers is that often the controllers neglect their secondary, or may be too busy with their primary powers to spend as much time on their secondary. The defender is much more likely to keep their primary busy than the controller is their secondary, and the defender gets it earlier. This is not 100% of course, but I have many times been teamed with /ff controllers who only took personal ff from the secondary over five years, hardly ever did a defender do so.
My idea for vigilence (that no doubt others have also suggested):
Add a fury like bar. The more the defender attacks the stronger their buffs/debuffs/heals are. Encourages the defender to use both primary and secondary and even encourages some excitement for forcefeilders (they gotta buff the team in the middle of a fight for maximum effectiveness).
Reading the replies to this have been amusing to say the least, as well as watching the direction of the thread. I'm not going to reply to everything now but something baffles me.
We established that Defender Buffs/Debuffs = Controller Buffs/Debuffs. Or in some cases have a small variation which is generally unnoticable. (Exception: ForceFields) This is fact.
We established that Controllers Damage > Defender Damage in most cases, and similar in best case scenario's. This is fact.
We all agree that Controllers have excellent survival skills through powerful single target and AoE control. The higher they get, the more powerful they get substantially.
We also established that Defenders = An archtype that solo's very poorly and slowly.
Yet what I cannot understand is, despite the fact Controllers offer the same amount of utility and buffs, plus have a whole primary devoted to control, plus can solo perfectly well and offer good damage... people STILL say Defenders should be bad soloers because of what they offer a team. Am I completely missing something?!
Defenders offer nothing to a team that a Controller can't offer instead. Saying that Defenders offer stuff to a team so should suck at soloing is not justification people.
At the very most, it is only at low levels where players have to make hard choices with their power selections that defenders come out on top - both because they can get their powers earlier and because they have less good powers to choose from.
Defenders are not "team orientated" AT's anymore then Controllers are. In fact, Controllers are MORE team orientated then Defenders with both primary and secondary sets geared for teaming. Defenders secondary is geared for soloing, else why have it?
Also, this whole factor of "force multiplication" as a reason for keeping Defenders as poor as they are is rediculous. Are people seriously saying that 8 Controllers with secondaries ranging from Radiation to Kinetics to ForceFields to Empathy - just like Defenders - are any less of a force multiplier? If anything they are a bigger force multiplier because of the nature of their primary.
Let us just make something clear, yes Defenders can solo.
Yes Defenders can complete missions on heroic difficulty without the assistance of other players.
Yes even Forcefield and Empathy Defenders are capable of this. (I should know, I have both.)
However - that is missing the point. The point is not that Defenders cannot solo, even a power pool MAN hero can solo and the community have proven that much already.
The point is Defenders are punished for soloing completely unfairly. Defenders solo far too slowly for an AT which has its secondary completely dedicated to blasting. Controllers, Corrupters and Masterminds are not forced to suck at soloing because of a Buffing/Debuffing powerset.
The disparity in damage between Defenders and Controllers is shocking.
The disparity in buffs/debuffs between the two is almost non exsistant.
I agree with those who feel Viligance is a good place to start, however I also feel that Containment would be an even better place.
P.S Please do not use Rad/Sonic or heck, Anything/Sonic as a baseline measurement of performance for Defenders when soloing.
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Yet what I cannot understand is, despite the fact Controllers offer the same amount of utility and buffs, plus have a whole primary devoted to control, plus can solo perfectly well and offer good damage... people STILL say Defenders should be bad soloers because of what they offer a team.
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Logically, it implies controllers should be nerfed if defenders are considered fine.
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Defenders offer nothing to a team that a Controller can't offer instead. Saying that Defenders offer stuff to a team so should suck at soloing is not justification people.
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^THIS^
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Ultimo, just because you built a crappy defender doesn't mean a damn thing as far as the archetype goes.