Defenders vs Controller Disparity.

I've made a similar post about this before a while ago. However I still believe this issue to be quite fundemental to the role of Defenders and thus, I shall post for a final time. This time with more numbers to express the disparity.

Firstly, when I started playing this game back in Issue 1, the Controller role was a pure controlling/buffing archtype that could bring a huge range of abilities to a team. They were powerful heroes who could change the outcome of a fight, but their main drawback was their low damage and difficulty in soloing. They relied on teams and to some degree, teams relied on them.

Defenders however gave up this ability of pure support and instead came with a blasting secondary. To the beginner, there were more solo friendly then the controller but still could bring a good variety of buffs and debuffs to the team. The two archtypes of Controller and Defender share many abilities, and the balance between the two has always been difficult to achieve. The usual result of this is Defenders are squeezed between Controllers and Blasters at a level of ineffectiveness.

As the game has evolved, many things have changed. Epic power pools were introduced, inherent abilities were added such as Containment, which was intended to appease angry players after the multiple-pet nerf. The balance between Defenders and Controllers shifted.

Controllers low damage? Not anymore. With their single target holds and immobalizes doing defender level damage as well as locking down enemies at the same time, Controllers are better at blasting then Defenders.

So what is the point of Defenders? An archtype which for the majority of powerset combinations, has the hardest time soloing of any, an archtype which has its inherent abilitly soley based around the need to team and gives zero benefit solo, yet an archtype which is outhshined by Controllers in both a solo and team setting.

Just to further compound the situation, Controllers possess most of the Defender primaries as their secondary, and there is a rarely a noticable difference between the two. For some powers, there actually is no difference at all.

This is why I always view the Defender as a low level archtype, they get their powers nice and early to help low level teams. Whee Fortitude at 12! However once they get towards 30's, Controllers are more then capable of taking over the role to 50 without any drawbacks and with significantly more tools at their disposal.

Lets focus on Controller vs Defender damage. Should we have a theory before we analyse it? Should Defenders do more damage because of the amount fo abilities they give up in order to have a blasting secondary?

Lets compare an Electric Blast defender to an Earth Controller. Damage is at level 50.

Unenhanced
Electric Blast
Charged Bolts: 36.15 Damage, 5.20 Endurance, 4s Recharge.
Secondary Effects: -7% Endurance, 30% Chance of 2.60 Endurance.

Lightning Bolt: 59.28 Damage, 8.53 Endurance, 8s Recharge.
Secondary Effects: -10% Endurance, 30% Chance of 4.26 Endurance.

Earth Control
Stone Prison: 30.59 Damage, 7.80 Endurance, 4s Recharge. +30.59 Containment damage = 61.18 Total Damage.
Secondary Effects: Mag 4 Immobalize, 20% Chance for +1 Mag Immobalize, Knockback Protection, -20% Defence, .

Fossilize: 30.59 Damage, 8.53 Endurance, 8s Recharge. +30.59 Containment damage = 61.18 Total Damage.
Secondary Effects: Mag 3 Hold, 20% Chance for +1 Mag Hold, -20% Defence, Knockback Protection.


Now if we factor in damage enhancements. Assuming a +95% to damage bonus.
Enhanced
Electric Blast
Charged Bolts: 70.49 Damage, 5.20 Endurance, 4s Recharge.
Secondary Effects: -7% Endurance, 30% Chance of 2.60 Endurance.

Lightning Bolt: 115.60 Damage, 8.53 Endurance, 8s Recharge.
Secondary Effects: -10% Endurance, 30% Chance of 4.26 Endurance.

Earth Control
Stone Prison: 59.65 Damage, 7.80 Endurance, 4s Recharge. +59.65 Containment damage = 119.30 Total Damage.
Secondary Effects: Mag 4 Immobalize, 20% Chance for +1 Mag Immobalize, Knockback Protection, -20% Defence, .

Fossilize: 59.65 Damage, 8.53 Endurance, 8s Recharge. +59.65 Containment damage = 119.30 Total Damage.
Secondary Effects: Mag 3 Hold, 20% Chance for +1 Mag Hold, -20% Defence, Knockback Protection.

Just looking at the numbers, I don't know how anyone can say this is balanced. Not only do Controllers do more damage, but their attacks hold and immobalize foes at the same time, making them far easier to play as solo. The only downside is it can get incredibly boring fighting foes that cannot even return fire.

Just to give another example, I will compare Energy Blast to Mind Control. Damage is again at level 50.


Unenhanced
Energy Blast
Power Bolt: 36.15 Damage, 5.20 Endurance, 4s Recharge.
Secondary Effects: 20% Chance for a Mag 1.45 Knockback.

Power Blast: 59.28 Damage, 8.53 Endurance, 8s Recharge.
Secondary Effects: 30% Chance for a Mag 2.08 Knockback.

Power Burst: 76.63 Damage, 10.40 Endurance, 10s Recharge.
Secondary Effects: 60% Chance for a Mag 4.15 Knockback.

Mind Control
Mesmerize: 30.59 Damage, 5.20 Endurance, 6s Recharge. +30.59 Containment damage = 61.18 Total Damage.
Secondary Effects: Mag 3.5 Sleep, 20% Chance for +1 Mag Sleep.

Levitate: 40.37 Damage, 6.86 Endurance, 6s Recharge. +40.37 Containment damage = 80.74 Total Damage.
Secondary Effects: 100% Chance of Mag 12.46 Knockup.

Dominate: 30.59 Damage, 8.53 Endurance, 8s Recharge. +30.59 Containment damage = 61.18 Total Damage.
Secondary Effects: Mag 3 Hold. 20% Chance of Mag 1 Hold.


Again assuming +95% damage bonus from enhancements.
Enhanced
Energy Blast
Power Bolt: 70.49 Damage, 5.20 Endurance, 4s Recharge.
Secondary Effects: 20% Chance for a Mag 1.45 Knockback.

Power Blast: 115.60 Damage, 8.53 Endurance, 8s Recharge.
Secondary Effects: 30% Chance for a Mag 2.08 Knockback.

Power Burst: 149.43 Damage, 10.40 Endurance, 10s Recharge.
Secondary Effects: 60% Chance for a Mag 4.15 Knockback.

Mind Control
Mesmerize: 59.65 Damage, 5.20 Endurance, 6s Recharge. +59.65 Containment damage = 119.30 Total Damage.
Secondary Effects: Mag 3.5 Sleep, 20% Chance for +1 Mag Sleep.

Levitate: 78.72 Damage, 6.86 Endurance, 6s Recharge. +78.72 Containment damage = 157.44 Total Damage.
Secondary Effects: 100% Chance of Mag 12.46 Knockup.

Dominate: 59.65 Damage, 8.53 Endurance, 8s Recharge. +59.65 Containment damage = 119.30 Total Damage.
Secondary Effects: Mag 3 Hold. 20% Chance of Mag 1 Hold.


Controllers have similar damage levels, yet can bring a whole multitude of AoE Controls such as Sleeps, Stuns, Immobalizes, Holds and (in most cases) even have access to a pet who further augments the problem.

One of the most important factors to remember however is containment operates outside of the damage bonus multipliers. Simply put, any damage they do is doubled, like scrapper crits. So after all bonuses and buffs are taken into account, the damage then gets doubled. So not only is it imbalanced with just normal enhancements, but it gets more absurd the more layers of +damage you add.

Yes, Defenders possess other AoE attacks. However in a solo environment, these attacks are not worth much. They hit for low amounts of damage which if you look at the chart above, is about the same level as Charged Bolts and Power Bolt. In a team setting, the attacks continue to feel lackluster. The knockback associated with some of the AoE's making the powers more of a hinderence then an asset.

Just for completeness, lets compare some of the AoE attacks Defenders possess, to a few AoE attacks that Controllers eventually obtain.

Unenhanced
Defender
Explosive Arrow: 32.53 Damage, 15.18 Endurance, 16s Recharge.
Secondary Effects: 50% Chance of Mag 4.15 Knockback.

Psychic Tornado: 32.17 Damage, 18.51 Endurance, 20s Recharge.
Secondary Effects: -37.50% Recharge, 50% Chance of Mag 1.40 Knockup.

Explosive Blast: 32.53 Damage, 15.18 Endurance, 16s Recharge.
Secondary Effects: 50% Chance of Mag 4.15 Knockback.

Neutron Bomb: 32.53 Damage, 15.18 Endurance, 16s Recharge.
Secondary Effects: -25% Defence.

Ball of Lightning: 36.87 Damage, 15.18 Endurance, 16s Recharge.
Secondary Effects: -25% Defence.

Controller
Psychic Tornado: 26.76 Damage, 23.14 Endurance, 20s Recharge. +26.76 Containment Damage = 53.52 Total Damage
Secondary Effects: -37.50% Recharge, 50% Chance of Mag 1.40 Knockup.

Fire Ball: 38.09 Damage, 18.98 Endurance, 32s Recharge. +38.09 Containment Damage = 76.18 Total Damage
Secondary Effects: None.

Fissure: 27.53 Damage, 12.74 Endurance, 20s Recharge. +27.53 Containment Damage = 55.06 Total Damage
Secondary Effects: (Mids) 50% Chance of Mag 0.67 Knockback, 50% Chance of Mag 1 Stun, 50% Chance of Mag 2 Stun.


Now for the enhanced numbers with +95% damage.
Enhanced
Defender
Explosive Arrow: 63.43 Damage, 15.18 Endurance, 16s Recharge.
Secondary Effects: 50% Chance of Mag 4.15 Knockback.

Psychic Tornado: 62.73 Damage, 18.51 Endurance, 20s Recharge.
Secondary Effects: -37.50% Recharge, 50% Chance of Mag 1.40 Knockup.

Explosive Blast: 63.43 Damage, 15.18 Endurance, 16s Recharge.
Secondary Effects: 50% Chance of Mag 4.15 Knockback.

Neutron Bomb: 63.43 Damage, 15.18 Endurance, 16s Recharge.
Secondary Effects: -25% Defence.

Ball of Lightning: 71.90 Damage, 15.18 Endurance, 16s Recharge.
Secondary Effects: -25% Defence.

Controller
Psychic Tornado: 52.18 Damage, 23.14 Endurance, 20s Recharge. +52.18 Containment Damage = 104.36 Total Damage.
Secondary Effects: -37.50% Recharge, 50% Chance of Mag 1.40 Knockup.

Fire Ball: 74.28 Damage, 18.98 Endurance, 32s Recharge. +74.28 Containment Damage = 148.56 Total Damage
Secondary Effects: None.

Fissure: 53.68 Damage, 12.74 Endurance, 20s Recharge. +53.68 Containment Damage = 107.36 Total Damage
Secondary Effects: (Mids) 50% Chance of Mag 0.67 Knockback, 50% Chance of Mag 1 Stun, 50% Chance of Mag 2 Stun.

Blaster
Explosive Arrow: 109.80 Damage, 15.18 Endurance, 16s Recharge.
Secondary Effects: 50% Chance of Mag 4.15 Knockback.

Fire Ball: 145.50 Damage, 15.18 Endurance, 16s Recharge.
Secondary Effects: None.

So not only do Controllers do similar single target damage, but by the time they unlock their EPP's, they are doing more AoE damage then Defenders. Reaching Blaster levels of AoE damage, although it is worth factoring in the increased recharge. However it is also worth factoring in the many long recharge powers Controllers have, and the tendency to stack globel recharge for those.

Conclusion
In conclusion I find that Defenders are an outperformed Archtype. They have low damage and a buffing/debuffing primary which for a lot of combinations finds it difficult to solo. Their secondary powerset of damage is weak, especially when compared to other powerset options for other archtypes (Control, Buff/Debuff, Armour)

In comparison Controllers have two very strong powersets, that of Control and Buffing/Debuffing. With their inherent ability of containment which could be considered overpowered, their levels of damage has risen to new heights. Their original drawback of being a difficult class with low damage is no longer present and unfortunately they possess the ability to do equal damage to Defenders whilst maintaining their superior abilities of control. This is further compounded once Controllers gain access to their AoE control and pets, and even more once they are slotted to be reliable.

TL: DR
A)i) Containment offers too much damage to controllers. Also because it operates outside of normal damage modifiers it means that this advantage is further amplified when +damage buffs are considered.
ii) If containment is double damage, then why do all Controller primaries have a 20% chance to crit? Is this just another perk? Its not accounted for and Dominators do not have this bonus.

B) Defender damage is too low. Especially when compared to Controller damage levels. One advantage Defenders should have over Controllers is more damage. Soloing might be less safe, but it should be quicker. Containment effecting EPP AoE's is also incredibly unfair on Defenders, as it gives Controllers better AoE damage outside of nukes.

C) Defenders inherent is extremely bad and needs looking at again by the Devs. It has zero affect when solo. It has zero effect for some powersets such as a forcefield defender who keeps everyone at 100% heath. It is completely reliant upon your teammates and their (in)ability.

D) Many of the Defender primary powers are used by Controllers without any meaningful difference in effectiveness. Yet at the same time, Defenders have HUGE drawbacks to having Blaster primaries as their secondary. Why is there such inequality here? If Controllers buffed like Defenders blasted, there would be a real reason to find a Defender.

I invite anyone to try and disprove these findings. As I said at the beginning, I have brought up this issue many times over the years. This is the most detailed thread I have created about the issue and also the final thread I will create about it. It is now up to the devs to do the right thing and make Defenders Heroes again.

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A)i) Containment offers too much damage to controllers. Also because it operates outside of normal damage modifiers it means that this advantage is further amplified when +damage buffs are considered.
ii) If containment is double damage, then why do all Controller primaries have a 20% chance to crit? Is this just another perk? Its not accounted for and Dominators do not have this bonus.

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If I recall the domination buff is designed to balance out with the critical hold of controllers (20% +1 mag).

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B) Defender damage is too low. Especially when compared to Controller damage levels. One advantage Defenders should have over Controllers is more damage. Soloing might be less safe, but it should be quicker. Containment effecting EPP AoE's is also incredibly unfair on Defenders, as it gives Controllers better AoE damage outside of nukes.

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I don't consider this really a controller problem here. It's completely a defender problem since the support sets get the proper numerical bonus across the board and corruptors actually protect the team better because of the vast damage difference.

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C) Defenders inherent is extremely bad and needs looking at again by the Devs. It has zero affect when solo. It has zero effect for some powersets such as a forcefield defender who keeps everyone at 100% heath. It is completely reliant upon your teammates and their (in)ability.

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Yes, totally awful and been complained about since day one of it's implementation.

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D) Many of the Defender primary powers are used by Controllers without any meaningful difference in effectiveness. Yet at the same time, Defenders have HUGE drawbacks to having Blaster primaries as their secondary. Why is there such inequality here? If Controllers buffed like Defenders blasted, there would be a real reason to find a Defender.

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Well controllers have always been better team support than defenders. However defender don't need to be balanced with controllers, they need to be balanced with corruptors because their sets and playstyles are almost exactly the same and corruptors end up being vastly superior in both damage and team support in actual play.

<QR>

Roll a Corruptor. Switch after GR hits.


Of course, you'll still get outdamaged by everything (on a "High" damage AT at that), but at least there will be one AT that's slightly behind you on damage.

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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

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Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

Well as things are now there is just no reason to ever choose a defender over a controller due to the way controls/buff/debuffs work together. Aside from the few buff/debuff sets they dont share I cant see a reason to ever make a defender. Now I dont see this ever getting address until CoH 2. One of the biggest flaws in this game is that the devs initially had this idea that just because you are a support AT you are destined to forever have suck [censored] damage. As things progressed on VEATs broke this mold by being one of the first damage dealing support ATs. I think this is what lead to the justification of them finally addressing dominator issues of suck [censored] damage. VEATs and doms are proof you can create a support AT that does decent damage and not be a tank mage. I think this is something that can apply to defenders and corrupters so they can finally get a damage boost to make them soloable in my eyes. The only issue with this is that it steps on blasters toes, so they may end up having to boost blaster damage in pve once again so that they keep a big difference from the rest of the pack. I think overall if CoX didnt have such grand canyon size gaps in solo speed for some ATs we wouldnt be having as much of the FoTM crap as we do now. It would be a more balanced game in terms of who picks what AT and powerset instead of the majority flocking to whats FoTM because it does damage.

Hi

The Defenders main problem is one of mind set by both the player community and the developers themselves.

Somewhere along the line, the Defedner which was originally supposed to be a compromise between the tank and the blaster was de-evolved into a pure support class instead of a good all around class. If you read the description of a Defender from the original CoH disks as it loads the game into the computer, it testifies to the old "abandoned" role of the Defender, which I usually regard as the "Defended" now, after all the price forced on them to become a support class, not even a great one, was solo mediocrity. At one time, you could have said Defenders had Kinetics, and Radiation which were incredibly good support powers, but now the Controller has those too; thus making the Defender a bit redundant.

The poster is correct about the Defender being laughable weak as whole; there are some exceptions where their primary does get to augment their weak secondaries, such as Kinetics, Radiation and Sonics; but the other primaries are questionable in this respect and their secondaries power damage is frankly a joke. Add to this the MAG 0 resistance to the game standard of spam status effects, and you truly have a very weak class, forced into a life of slavery err servitude to other classes as a support class.

What I would like done to the Defended class to become a good overall flexible class than can group support (never as good as controllers) and can Solo reasonably well:

1. Give all primary powers of Defenders an ability to convey Status Effect Resistanes to otehrs and to themselves, it does not need to be exhorbitant, perhaps a MAG 6, which is half way between the 0 they have and the 12 of the Tanker; Scrapers have MAG 9. Perhaps making powers such O2 an area effect around the Defended could accomplish this, thus Clear Mind and other similar powers could be implemented in the same way. Note that since the Defender can protect themselves from the AOE status effects to an extent, they can move nearer to the Tank to share and give the Tank more Status Effect resistance. One should question, how dependent is a Tank on a Defender in game play; but I bet the tanker is not nearly as dependent on the Defender as the Defender is forced to be on the Tanker.

Second change I would request is for the Defender to have an increase in their damage, it should be much higher than it is at the moment.

Third I would like to see debuffs to have a MAG intensity, this way the MAG intensity of a Defender's debuff could be set greater than those of a Controller. Sine debuffs now have a MAG value and can be resisted, improve the Defender's status effect protection powers (O2, Clear Mind, etc) to also provide a similar level of debuff protection. I hear Tankers complain of the lack of challenge, it would be fun if the mobs were re-programmed were half of the ones today doing spam status effects, would do spam debuffs instead; that may give our melee friends a bit of a challenge and a taste of what Defenders have to endure all the time.

You may want to look from a primary class to another, which ones need more status effect and debuff resistances than others. For instance a Storm Defender may not seem to require a lot of help if they can keep their targets at closs range and debuffed; but they are extremely vulnerable to any ranged attack, thus beause of the nature of their attacks they would be much likely to become an aggroe magnet like the tanker is; while compare to a lauid back Empath who is not likely to gain much aggroe while using their powers.

Hugs

Stormy

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I don't consider this really a controller problem here. It's completely a defender problem since the support sets get the proper numerical bonus across the board

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Not really. Secondaries that are used as a primary on other ATs generally are playing at 75% of the primary. Controllers walk all over this.

A couple of things you seem to be missing here.

First of all, a defenders primary is by far stronger than a controllers secondary any day. Example -- an empath defenders absorb pain will always be better than a controllers (given they are the same level & slotted the same).

Next, a defenders prime purpose is to use their primary (well that is how I play it). Focusing on your buffs, debuffs and assisting the team. Blasting is the lesser of my concerns, if the team wanted a blaster, they would have invited one (although I do damage when my primaries are recharging).

Controllers on the other hand, their main objective is to *control* things. Their buffs/debuffs are also expected to be up & out, right after the control is done. My only controller that plays at times like a defender is my illusionist, simply as he pops out the pets, and has not much left to do other than secondaries (no immob, no group hold, only the single target hold). So he goes back to doing the thermal buff/debuffs, which are lovely.

If I have invited a controller to team to say, oh I don't know, lock mobs down, and that controller is doing things *other* than said lockdown, then they are a waste of time. (Especially as I already have defenders on team doing the buffs/debuffs that we require). Once the controller locks stuff down, I don't mind him buffing etc.

Aside from buffing my team mates INBETWEEN mobs (when no fighting is going on), I have always played my controllers by opening with my primary - mezzing the shinola out of mobs. Confuse, hold, fear, immob, and throw in anything else from my primary.

The best teams I have played, especially on TF's have always had a lot of defenders on team. I've found in the past that *some* controller players just can't keep up with staying actively busy on all their powers for the duration of a TF and end up slacking.

I will agree however that a defenders' secondary is weak.
The only one I've found decent is the sonic blast.

Comparing defenders to blasters isn't a good idea imo.
Defenders are designed for the biggest buffing/debuffing primary in game, and the weakest blast.
Blasters are the complete opposite (and buffless to boot).

One more thing you have forgotten, the best buff from the entire leadership set is only achievable by a defender.

It sounds like you play with bad players.

Heroes, Villains ♦ Reviews ♦ Retrospect

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The poster is correct about the Defender being laughable weak as whole;

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snrk

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Add to this the MAG 0 resistance to the game standard of spam status effects, and you truly have a very weak class, forced into a life of slavery err servitude to other classes as a support class.

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Woe unto the poor Defender, having to deal with mezzes just like Blasters, Controllers, Corruptors, non-Domination Dominators, and non-Dwarf Kheldians.

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What I would like done to the Defended class to become a good overall flexible class than can group support (never as good as controllers) and can Solo reasonably well:

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Because after all, nobody's ever been able to solo reasonably well with a Defender.

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1. Give all primary powers of Defenders an ability to convey Status Effect Resistanes to otehrs and to themselves, it does not need to be exhorbitant, perhaps a MAG 6, which is half way between the 0 they have and the 12 of the Tanker;

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Yeah... not seeing it happen. See previous comment on the other ATs that have issues.

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Second change I would request is for the Defender to have an increase in their damage, it should be much higher than it is at the moment.

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It should be "much higher"? You really need to share those drugs - if it were "higher" it would be a Corruptor only with better mez, buff, and debuff modifiers. If it were "much higher" it'd be a Blaster.

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Third I would like to see debuffs to have a MAG intensity, this way the MAG intensity of a Defender's debuff could be set greater than those of a Controller. Sine debuffs now have a MAG value and can be resisted, improve the Defender's status effect protection powers (O2, Clear Mind, etc) to also provide a similar level of debuff protection.

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Since the complaints about mez primarily deal with the binary nature of the mag structure, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that this is the dumbest idea I've ever heard for "fixing" Defenders.

Now, I'll admit that Defenders are one of the lowest damage ATs, just above petless Masterminds and just below Corruptors (unless you're dealing with EB+, then Scourge has enough chances to fire to make Corruptor damage almost equal the post-buff Dominators). But they're hardly "laughably weak", and if you're having such a hard time dealing with mezzes - which as stated above, is not something unique to Defenders - I suggest you don't have a clue how to play and should probably try to learn something called "tactics" before you start talking about AT weaknesses and making suggestions which just seem to read as "I want an AT with not only the best available debuffs, but high damage, mez protection, and while you're at it can you just give me a button making everything fall down as soon as I enter a mission too?" If you need that in order to accept the AT as viable, then it's not the right AT for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

[ QUOTE ]
A couple of things you seem to be missing here.

First of all, a defenders primary is by far stronger than a controllers secondary any day. Example -- an empath defenders absorb pain will always be better than a controllers (given they are the same level & slotted the same).

Next, a defenders prime purpose is to use their primary (well that is how I play it). Focusing on your buffs, debuffs and assisting the team. Blasting is the lesser of my concerns, if the team wanted a blaster, they would have invited one (although I do damage when my primaries are recharging).

Controllers on the other hand, their main objective is to *control* things. Their buffs/debuffs are also expected to be up & out, right after the control is done. My only controller that plays at times like a defender is my illusionist, simply as he pops out the pets, and has not much left to do other than secondaries (no immob, no group hold, only the single target hold). So he goes back to doing the thermal buff/debuffs, which are lovely.

If I have invited a controller to team to say, oh I don't know, lock mobs down, and that controller is doing things *other* than said lockdown, then they are a waste of time. (Especially as I already have defenders on team doing the buffs/debuffs that we require). Once the controller locks stuff down, I don't mind him buffing etc.

Aside from buffing my team mates INBETWEEN mobs (when no fighting is going on), I have always played my controllers by opening with my primary - mezzing the shinola out of mobs. Confuse, hold, fear, immob, and throw in anything else from my primary.

The best teams I have played, especially on TF's have always had a lot of defenders on team. I've found in the past that *some* controller players just can't keep up with staying actively busy on all their powers for the duration of a TF and end up slacking.

I will agree however that a defenders' secondary is weak.
The only one I've found decent is the sonic blast.

Comparing defenders to blasters isn't a good idea imo.
Defenders are designed for the biggest buffing/debuffing primary in game, and the weakest blast.
Blasters are the complete opposite (and buffless to boot).

One more thing you have forgotten, the best buff from the entire leadership set is only achievable by a defender.

[/ QUOTE ]I try to look at the entire package when looking at defenders vs controllers. The difference between primary and secondary isnt big enough once you factor in controls. Controls+80% buff/debuff +pet damage >100% buff/debuff + piss poor blast damage. I cant think of a single defender combination with the same set for a controller that can protect a team better than a controller. Its just not possible. That in itself means somethings need to change but most likely wont happen till CoX 2. Despite what the primary or secondary roles are players will change those to either fit the situation or their playstyles. Another reason I feel defenders get the shorthand in all of this is due to troller pets. Trollers can contribute damage via pets without ever having to stop supporting with their controls/buff/debuffs. Defenders have to choose between blasting and supporting. Often times on some sets that can get in the way. The added damage they contribute doesnt amount to enough to be worth risking a teammates life by blasting instead of supporting.

You too.

Heroes, Villains ♦ Reviews ♦ Retrospect

I'm surprised that so few have supported the OPs arguments. Yes, early on, defenders do pretty well. But in
the later game, controllers with their pets out, their holds fully slotted will totally perform better than a defender. Granted there are some exceptions to this, but defenders have long needed somethig else to make up for the perfomance gap.

Playing late game, hands down, I'd rather have a controller than a defender.

Good post, Peacemoon. On the whole I think you're right, Defenders are stuck in a bit of a hard place. The analysis of the basic attack values is pretty telling.

A couple of points I feel you missed:

1) Defenders do get better AoE damage. Controllers get Hot Feet, Terrify and AoE immobilises. And Carrion Creepers, sort of. But nothing in the same league as spamming Nightfall and Tentacles, or dropping a Blaster level Ice Storm.
I find this is noticeable playing a pair of Defenders rather than two Controllers, even Fire Controllers.
Indication that the devs wish to keep it this way: Repulsion Bomb did not get containment damage for Controllers (and Hot Feet only gets 75% extra instead of 100%).
[Edit: sorry, you DID cover this, but I think really glossed over the recharge issues. Controllers typically have 30s + recharge on any AoE. Dark Blast has two 10s AoEs. Most Defender sets have 2 under 20s]


2) Some Buff/debuff sets are better reduced than others when going from primary to Secondary.
Force Fields and Sonic Resonance have got the balance right - giving your team 58% Res (Def vales) vs 42% (Controller values) is noticable, as is 40% Defence vs 30% Defence.
Empathy on the other hand, is primarily a recharge-limited set and so is almost completely unaffected by being a secondary. If Controller Regen Aura took 650 seconds instead of 500 to recharge, or Controller Fort took 90 seconds, you'd notice.
Ideally each set/power should get looked at as to how to restrict it. Long recharge powers should take longer on Controllers. Def buffs and Res buffs/debuffs work well already.

Finally, I'd make Containment a +100% damage buff instead of a special 2x multiplier it is now.

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I don't consider this really a controller problem here. It's completely a defender problem since the support sets get the proper numerical bonus across the board

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Not really. Secondaries that are used as a primary on other ATs generally are playing at 75% of the primary. Controllers walk all over this.

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That's where my problem lies. Controllers have their secondaries working at too high a percentage of the Defenders primaries. Sure there's a difference, but not much. I don't like to advocate nerfing, but it's seriously out of whack and I'm not sure what can be done other than lowering the value for Controllers. If you make the Defender primaries stronger, Controllers will still operate at the same percentage, and the Defender buffs/debuffs will be too strong. Lower the value for controllers just a little (even 5%), and maybe giving Defenders a slight damage buff, should go a long way to putting both archetypes on even ground.

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Controls+80% buff/debuff +pet damage >100% buff/debuff + piss poor blast damage.

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Agreed.

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I cant think of a single defender combination with the same set for a controller that can protect a team better than a controller. Its just not possible.

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This I disagree with, but only as I have seen a lot of bad controller players. And my most favourable team buffing players have been defenders. But I do agree a controller *potentially* can bring a lot more to the team if played well as a complete package, although their buffs/debuffs are slightly lower.

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Despite what the primary or secondary roles are players will change those to either fit the situation or their playstyles.

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Agreed.

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Another reason I feel defenders get the shorthand in all of this is due to troller pets. Trollers can contribute damage via pets without ever having to stop supporting with their controls/buff/debuffs. Defenders have to choose between blasting and supporting. Often times on some sets that can get in the way. The added damage they contribute doesnt amount to enough to be worth risking a teammates life by blasting instead of supporting.

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Agreed. One of the reasons why I like playing my ill/thermal.

FYI -- my post prior to this was to emphasise moreso that defenders are still quite useful despite the comparison with controllers & blasters (from a buffing/debuffing mind-set at least).

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Not really. Secondaries that are used as a primary on other ATs generally are playing at 75% of the primary. Controllers walk all over this.


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This has never really been true. It was a simplification that was made when we barely understood the underlying mechanics of the game and when we were trying to figure out how powers worked ourselves. We grabbed onto and clung to the 75% figure because scrapper base resists/defense numbers became 75% that of tankers. It is not a rule nor even a guideline. It is not doctrine to be quoted, and is merely rhetoric of those who feel defenders are lacking in comparison to <insert AT comparison here>.

Different aspects of different ATs are supposed to be stronger or weaker depending on design choice. Blasters do X damage, defenders have Y to-hit debuffs, controllers have Z duration holds, brutes have T duration taunt, etc.

You can argue that controllers and/or corruptors need to be nerfed and/or that defenders need to be buffed. Falling back on some mystical 75% mantra is not going to be very convincing however and I encourage you to find some other argument. For example, the fact that three yellow minions sucks up 38%-50% of my end bar on my FF/Nrg seems problematic, while my time to kill is longer than other ATs, its not terribly longer, but my downtime is higher because I have end issues and I also get placed in more danger because I can run out of end mid-fght more easily than other ATs I have played. To be specific, when I start fighting with my FF/Nrg, the first spawn is always cake, the 2nd one is normally a non-issue, the third one can get dangerous, as by the end of the fight I am pretty much guaranteed to be sucking wind and trying not to toggle drop. 80 seconds into my playing, three spawns are dead, but I have no endurance to continue. Take a knee, move on, 80 more seconds have passed, and I now have a minute before Rest recharges. I have tried using blue inspires, but they are not enough to keep up a pace I find fun. I chose the FF/Nrg as a solo trial toon on purpose to see how bad it could get, and it was fine until the late 20s (I do not solo exclusively with her, but always make sure to spend a lot of time soloing).

My Storms, TAs, Sonics, and Darks have similar endurance issues. My Emps without Stamina have this issue (unless I get CP in the Epics), but I can't complain there since I skipped a mainstay of soloing. My Kins do not have this problem and I would say that my experience soloing Kin defenders leads me to believe they are fun as is. Even with AM, Rads seem to have some end issues, but my only Rad is a controller, so I can't speak well about that experience. Colds would seem to be problematic until 33, which would make 6 or so levels a hard ride solo. Anyone know how Traps plays on endurance?

Let me be Vigilant about my own health as well as my teammates (or some other method of helping a solo defenders use of blue, cheaper end costs on blasts could work fine, or maybe even blasts and buff/debuffs).

I strongly suspect Defenders will be the next AT that gets dev attention. If not on their own, as part of a joint package with Corruptor tweaks.

Why do I think they're both due?

There's simply no other AT besides Tankers that really warrant attention that hasn't already gotten some recently, and I think we're more likely to see VEAT buffs before that happens.

In regards to Defender playability, I think they suffer from the same problem that affects every hero support AT that isn't a Controller; the devs think they should suffer solo for their role on teams. In other words, if you don't have a offense oriented primary, you're SOL.

The catch is that when teamed, Defenders multiply each other's effectiveness extremely well. Defenders and Controllers stack better than Blasters, Scrappers or Tankers stack. Such is the nature of buffs and debuffs.

So any solution for Defenders to increase their soloability would have to have zero(or next to zero) impact on their teaming functionality.


.

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However defender don't need to be balanced with controllers, they need to be balanced with corruptors because their sets and playstyles are almost exactly the same and corruptors end up being vastly superior in both damage and team support in actual play.


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/Agree. This has also been on my mind lately, especially with going rogue around the corner.

Hi:

My post was limited from a perspective of a Defender, because of the nature of the thread. I am very aware of the woes of other support classes, and I am very much in favor in closing the helplessness gap when soloing between the ranged class (often regarded as support) and the melee class.

As always each AT support/ranged class has its exceptions, where the power set happens to mitigate some of these weaknesses such as in the case of Defenders: force fields and sonic with regards to resisting Status effects, and others such as Kin and Rad being able to truly integrate with the secondary powers. But one must beware, that an exception, is just that, and not the norm.

When I suggested the increase of damage on the defender by a lot, its all relative what a lot is. Someone put words in my mouth, took it out of context and then said that was really stupid. Post as such, really are not needed. Perhaps a suggestion for clarification would have been the polite thing to do, instead to make things up and flame.

With regards to damage incease, to me a 10% increase of damage is a lot. I am not advocating the damage to be greater or equal to Blasters, but why should it be lower than tankers? Once again, I am sure there are some tanker configurations whose damage maybe really bad, while others may be much better than others. I have both a mace and axe
tanker, and have used the Mission Architect to create benchmark scenarios, and then took the alts for a test run. I counted the number of attacks my tanker took to kill a minion, LT and boss. I counted the number of attacks it took for my blaster to kill a minion, LT and Boss; same process was done for my Storm/Dark Defender, and also did so for my BS/WP Scraper; all of them level 50, fighting level 50 mobs.

I found theat my Scraper did short work of the boss within 3-4 hits, if a crit happend it could be resolved in the average between 1 o 2 hits.

To my surprise, my energy blaster faired better with the minions than the Scraper and her performance against bosses was competitive with the Scraper without the crit ability; but the ability for AOEs of the blaster makes them a better group damage AT in my opinion, despite that it nearly doubles the number of hits required to lay down a boss with AOEs.

I sadly do not have a Fire/Kin Controller, but I do have a Fire/Rad controller. It took her about 6-8 strikes to kill the boss (once the debuffs were applied), but she also killed everything around it at the same time, slightly better DPS than the Blaster and their AOEs.

Finally I got to my Defender, Storm/Dark. The storm side help debuff ACC mainly and Resistances, but the resistant drop is not very much. Perhaps dark is a very weak power set as damage goes, but has some ACC debuff. But my storm/dark was built around ACC debuff mainly, so not really a good Defender candidate to test for firepower at range. At range a boss took me about 12-16 hits to take down, while at close range, it took me about 6-8 hits to defeat the boss, given my Lightning Storm is up, which actually is well slotted as well and has a very hard punch. Unfotunately lightning storm does not follow me, being a stationary pet, and its value in a solo situation is checkered. I must admit, I cheated here, by using a close quarter map set, in which ranged attacks by opposition was minimized, thus allowing my hurricane to do the bulk of the ACC debuff and making the effort quite safe. I found the ACC debuff of dark a bit wanting as well.

The scenarios were set at difficulty 1, and soloed.

Once more to me, an improvement on my dark attack to a 6-8 hits from 12-16 is a great improvement; once more its relative.

I also realize that the number above represents a limited statistical sample, I did about 20 groups of mobs and recorded the results. Also I understand that different mobs have different resistance to attack types, thus results could also be skewed when some powers attacked mobs with strong or weak armor agaisnt those forms of attacks. Yet despite of this, the limited statistical run can be utilized to determine a trend.

Hugs

Stormy

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However defender don't need to be balanced with controllers, they need to be balanced with corruptors because their sets and playstyles are almost exactly the same and corruptors end up being vastly superior in both damage and team support in actual play.


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/Agree. This has also been on my mind lately, especially with going rogue around the corner.

[/ QUOTE ]I see it as something thats going to get addressed maybe not due to GR but because the other Super Hero MMOs show how easy just about any combination is to solo specifically DCUO. If we could get rid of the solo issues in this game it would be healthier in the long run. People wouldnt switch games because with the competion all classes and powersets can solo near the same level of effectivness.

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For example, the fact that three yellow minions sucks up 38%-50% of my end bar on my FF/Nrg seems problematic, while my time to kill is longer than other ATs, its not terribly longer, but my downtime is higher because I have end issues and I also get placed in more danger because I can run out of end mid-fght more easily than other ATs I have played. To be specific, when I start fighting with my FF/Nrg, the first spawn is always cake, the 2nd one is normally a non-issue, the third one can get dangerous, as by the end of the fight I am pretty much guaranteed to be sucking wind and trying not to toggle drop. 80 seconds into my playing, three spawns are dead, but I have no endurance to continue. Take a knee, move on, 80 more seconds have passed, and I now have a minute before Rest recharges. I have tried using blue inspires, but they are not enough to keep up a pace I find fun. I chose the FF/Nrg as a solo trial toon on purpose to see how bad it could get, and it was fine until the late 20s (I do not solo exclusively with her, but always make sure to spend a lot of time soloing).

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This is exactly why my first toon is still 22nd level. Oddly enough, when I left the game for 2 years back in Issue 4, he was the highest at L18 and the only one I enjoyed playing at the end. When I came back he was the most tedious to play. It seemed like his abilities were not close to what they were back then. I don't know if that's just perception, if the bad guys were buffed, or if buffs were nerfed.

I don't want to see Defenders get more damage. I would rather they get something that fits in with being Defenders. All the other heroside ATs are great at one thing and weak at another (or have a unique ability such as Controllers controls). I think that is why Defenders are lacking, they are weak at one thing and ok at another, but they don't have a strength all their own.

Of course, get multiple defenders together to stack their buffs/debuffs and they will outdo Controllers anyday. So the problem is not defenders but the lone defender, whether soloing or the only one on a team.

To my mind, increasing the effect of a Defender's buffs/debuffs, while reducing their cumulative effect would be the way to go.

For example, a Defenders FF Dispersion Bubble could give me and unbuffed allies 15% defense, while only adding 10% to those who already have buffs.

It would also create a noticeable difference between a defender's dispersion bubble and a controllers, just like there is a noticeable difference between scrapper damage and tanker damage with the same power sets.

Now, despite the numbers used in the example, I'm not advocating a 50% increase in defender buffs/debuffs, nor that they should be double what a Controller gets. I'm not enough of a numbers guy to figure out how much of an increase would remain balanced and give defenders the feel of having an area of strength even when alone.

*Edited due to misstating my defender was "hardest to play" when I actually meant "most tedious to play".

While I largely agree with you about the situation with defenders, I have to object to your methodology. Defenders are the second most common AT I play (first being controller). If your methodology can't convince someone who already has the same conclusion as you, then I don't think you're going to convince someone who thinks defenders are just fine.

Firstly, you have cherry picked your comparisons.

1) Electric blast which is considered weakest single target, since it has only two ST attacks and lacks a third strong ST attack. You then used it to compare against the ST immob and hold of a controller (these ST immobs and holds are about the same damage).

You have neglected the fact that any other defender blast set will likely do much better.

Archery: snap shot + Blazing arrow + aimed shot; Ice blast: ice bolt + ice blast + BIB; Psy blast: subdue + mental blast + will dom + tk blast. So on so forth.

2) Then you used power blast which is not exactly stellar either. And compared it with Mind control, which has a strong single target attack chain, as a baseline for controller damage.

For a mixture of psy and smashing damage too, a psy blast defender typically uses tk blast, subdue, will dom, giving enhanced value
2 * (59.3 + 70.8 + 47.7) = 355.6
Mind control with enhanced containment, using hold to start off:
2*30.6 + 2*2*(30.6+40.4) = 345.2
It's not that bad if you compare two strong ST defender and controller sets right?

Secondly, you did not take into account the number of attacks available and the endurance/recharge of said attacks. To make a proper comparison, you have to construct attack chains -- ST and AOE. And you have to examine different powersets to find an "average" situation. Not an easy thing.

The controller may have an epic attack of fireball, psy tornado, or fissure. But the defender does not have one single AoE attack of Explosive Arrow. Again -- cherry picking. The defender in any realistic scenario does Aim + Rain of arrows, followed by fistful of arrows and/or explosive arrows; psy tornado and psy scream; neutron bomb, irradiate, electron haze; ball lightning and short circuit.

To leverage containment AoE-wise, the controller needs to either AoE hold the spawn, or AoE immob the spawn. Two controller sets lack AoE immobs, two other sets have control powers negated by using their AoE immobs.


Thirdly, what factor does the different strength of debuffs play in altering damage output, such as resistance debuffs?

* * *

Ok, one problem I see with controllers and defenders is that controllers are safer to solo than defenders and bring more team utility, but they do not give up solo capability/speed in exchange compared to defenders. Defenders are less safe to solo, bring less team utility, but they do not gain a corresponding increase in solo capability/speed.

The second problem lies partly in player perception. Controllers both control and deal damage with their primary. In the process of using their control primary, they will naturally slot the primary. I.e. the process of damage mitigation is the same as the process of dealing damage. On the other hand, a defender must consciously slot their damage secondary, often against the popular pressure for them to heavy focus on their primary. Too heavy primary slotting means they lack offense; not slotting their primary can mean lack of damage mitigation.

How to solve this? Either by giving defenders a damage buff, or changing their inherent. I don't think a direct damage buff will be likely because defenders are unfortunately 'capped' by the presence of corrupters, and corrupters are 'capped' by blasters. Secondly, due to the different defender sets the damage buff affects different defenders differently.

One other possible way is to weaken buff/debuffs on controllers, but then you'd have to look at corrupters and masterminds. And I'm not a huge fan of nerfing one AT to make the other better (it's like hitting all the pegs until they are flush with the ground).

I think the type of inherent to pick for the defender really depends on what the AT vision for the defender is. Is the defender supposed to be a team-oriented support AT with incidental damage, or a hybrid support/damage-dealing AT...or what?

You could give the defender
- a domination like button where they build their 'defenderation' bar by attacking, then when activated gives an effect like power boost (how does this affect buff and debuff powersets then?).
- a damage boost each time they use their primary power (how does this affect the buff and forget powers like FF then?).
- a damage boost with each teammate.
- a buff/debuff power boost with each teammate (can you imagine all defender teams then?).

There's never a lack of ideas...it's only the AT vision and whether there is motivation on the dev side to clarify that AT vision and implement the inherent. One gets the idea there's a lot on their plate now...

[ QUOTE ]
Hi:

My post was limited from a perspective of a Defender, because of the nature of the thread. I am very aware of the woes of other support classes, and I am very much in favor in closing the helplessness gap when soloing between the ranged class (often regarded as support) and the melee class.

As always each AT support/ranged class has its exceptions, where the power set happens to mitigate some of these weaknesses such as in the case of Defenders: force fields and sonic with regards to resisting Status effects, and others such as Kin and Rad being able to truly integrate with the secondary powers. But one must beware, that an exception, is just that, and not the norm.

When I suggested the increase of damage on the defender by a lot, its all relative what a lot is. Someone put words in my mouth, took it out of context and then said that was really stupid. Post as such, really are not needed. Perhaps a suggestion for clarification would have been the polite thing to do, instead to make things up and flame.

With regards to damage incease, to me a 10% increase of damage is a lot. I am not advocating the damage to be greater or equal to Blasters, but why should it be lower than tankers? Once again, I am sure there are some tanker configurations whose damage maybe really bad, while others may be much better than others. I have both a mace and axe
tanker, and have used the Mission Architect to create benchmark scenarios, and then took the alts for a test run. I counted the number of attacks my tanker took to kill a minion, LT and boss. I counted the number of attacks it took for my blaster to kill a minion, LT and Boss; same process was done for my Storm/Dark Defender, and also did so for my BS/WP Scraper; all of them level 50, fighting level 50 mobs.

I found theat my Scraper did short work of the boss within 3-4 hits, if a crit happend it could be resolved in the average between 1 o 2 hits.

To my surprise, my energy blaster faired better with the minions than the Scraper and her performance against bosses was competitive with the Scraper without the crit ability; but the ability for AOEs of the blaster makes them a better group damage AT in my opinion, despite that it nearly doubles the number of hits required to lay down a boss with AOEs.

I sadly do not have a Fire/Kin Controller, but I do have a Fire/Rad controller. It took her about 6-8 strikes to kill the boss (once the debuffs were applied), but she also killed everything around it at the same time, slightly better DPS than the Blaster and their AOEs.

Finally I got to my Defender, Storm/Dark. The storm side help debuff ACC mainly and Resistances, but the resistant drop is not very much. Perhaps dark is a very weak power set as damage goes, but has some ACC debuff. But my storm/dark was built around ACC debuff mainly, so not really a good Defender candidate to test for firepower at range. At range a boss took me about 12-16 hits to take down, while at close range, it took me about 6-8 hits to defeat the boss, given my Lightning Storm is up, which actually is well slotted as well and has a very hard punch. Unfotunately lightning storm does not follow me, being a stationary pet, and its value in a solo situation is checkered. I must admit, I cheated here, by using a close quarter map set, in which ranged attacks by opposition was minimized, thus allowing my hurricane to do the bulk of the ACC debuff and making the effort quite safe. I found the ACC debuff of dark a bit wanting as well.

The scenarios were set at difficulty 1, and soloed.

Once more to me, an improvement on my dark attack to a 6-8 hits from 12-16 is a great improvement; once more its relative.

I also realize that the number above represents a limited statistical sample, I did about 20 groups of mobs and recorded the results. Also I understand that different mobs have different resistance to attack types, thus results could also be skewed when some powers attacked mobs with strong or weak armor agaisnt those forms of attacks. Yet despite of this, the limited statistical run can be utilized to determine a trend.

Hugs

Stormy

[/ QUOTE ]


Giggles, I forgot to post my Tanker's performance...

My Mace Tanker was laying low Bosses between 5 to 7 hits, My axe Tanker was between 6 to 8 hits, both were enhancement wise configured the same. I am not sure how much stronger or weaker a fire, super strength tanker would be.

Hugs

Stormy

[ QUOTE ]
- a domination like button where they build their 'defenderation' bar by attacking, then when activated gives an effect like power boost (how does this affect buff and debuff powersets then?).


[/ QUOTE ] No just no, we already been thru this with doms. We would end up with a bunch of elitist players who can stack defenderation 3 times saying that defenders are fine and dont need changing while the rest of us have piss poor damage because we cant afford a perma-defenderation build. Sorry not going to happen and if it ever did I would personally go to Paragon Studios and have a long talk with Castle for doing it and Positron for allowing Castle to do it.

I disagree with the idea of even comparing Defenders to Controllers; one's a Control/Buff set and the other is a Buff/Attack set. The only thing that can be legitimately compared are the corresponding Buff sets; in which the Defender edges out the Controller.

A more accurate comparison would be Defender vs. Corr; they operate on the same principle but in a mirrored fashion.


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If you need mez protection/resistance on you Def/Corr, then you have to accomodate your power choices to reflect that:

Rad Emission
Sonic
Traps

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Woe unto the poor Defender, having to deal with mezzes just like Blasters, Controllers, Corruptors, non-Domination Dominators, and non-Dwarf Kheldians.

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Kind of a baseless statement. Blasters have some weird form of dealing with mez; Dominators at least have the ability to gain mez protection (with the option of putting enough recharge on it to make it a reliable source of mez protection) and Khelds have the option of going into and out of mez prt/res when needed.

***************************

I will agree on your assessment that the inherent is bad (I don't too much care for the Tanker's either but at least the Tanker's provide solo utility); but I also feel that part of their inherent (that everybody seems to be overlooking) are the beefed up buff bonuses.

If the Defender's whole goal in life is to be a support AT then the (whole of the) inherent needs to reflect that better:

Increasing the duration and radius as well as the magnitude of the buffs would be an interesting start; as it stands, the Defender Buff Edge-Out is kind of marginal.

AND/OR

To allow some of those (toggle/PBAoE) buffs to extend to the Defender.


Another option would be to give the Defender an incremental Attribute boost when his health starts to fall under a certain point; ie. Defiance v.1 (because, even that is better than what the Defender inherent is now) which is marginally increased for every ally on his team (he must rise to his duty as defender of his friends and allies) with emphasis on damage, end recovery, regen, max health or some combination of attributes.

So, maybe a max 25% (near death) to these attributes when he solos; each teammate buffing that fluctuating percentage by 5-10%.