Defenders vs Controller Disparity.


Adelie

 

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If you need mez protection/resistance on your Def/Corr, then you have to accomodate your power choices to reflect that:

Rad Emission
Sonic
Traps

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Woe unto the poor Defender, having to deal with mezzes just like Blasters, Controllers, Corruptors, non-Domination Dominators, and non-Dwarf Kheldians.

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Kind of a baseless statement. Blasters have some weird form of dealing with mez; Dominators at least have the ability to gain mez protection (with the option of putting enough recharge on it to make it a reliable source of mez protection) and Khelds have the option of going into and out of mez prt/res when needed.



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There's also a few Side Pool powers that one can take; like Acrobatics and Combat Jumping. Health for Sleep resis, Tactics for Confusion and Fear/Assault for Taunt/Placate and Aid Self for Stun resis

As well as IO set slotting for resistance and a couple of IO Uniques.


Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
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Controller- It doesn't make sense to me that this AT has the damage it has.

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I disagree. I can see how people get upset on containment with the one epic AOE but at that point in the game, ATs are supposed to get access to things they otherwise wouldnt. Defenders get all kinds of flexibility in the 40s also. The damage otherwise even with containment isnt that awesome. I found Defenders much easier to solo. I think it is the outlying sets (Fire/Kin mainly) that make the perception that the damage is too high a bit of a perception problem.

Lewis

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You're probably right. But to me, Controllers have no primary or secondary that is damage with the exception of pets. And yet, they are granted what they lack. If Controllers get what they lack it's really only fair to do the same for everyone else, but would that even be balanced?

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I did like the idea of the poster that suggested that some of the magnitudes on the Defender powers could be upped to match controllers.

I also liked the idea that the party size getting bigger makes defender buffs better. Basically, add 1% (or some other appropriate) effectiveness per party member (self included). Then, the smaller the party, the more the damage boost. 8% damage boost when solo, 1% damage boost on a team.

OR hey how about taking a point from WOW where you have raid effects. What if everyone's damage output was X% higher with a Defender on the team. Say, 5% global damage buff to the team for ONE defender, with every additional defender giving a 1% buff?

That would ROCK. It would be an UBER inherent for the AT.

Lewis

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If I were doing defender balancing (aside from a whole whack of individual power tweaks) I'd do something similar as mentioned here.
ie damage boost while solo that scales down relative to the number of teammates within a given range.
*Proly like a 10-15% boost while solo, down to 0% in a full team with everyone within a 60ft range.

But at the same time I'd give them a powerboost effect that scales up from 0 to x % based on the number of teammates.
*Like up to a 15% powerboost effect.

While a powerboost effect wouldn't benefit everything defs do it would cover a lot. In addition to a heap of power tweaks I'd personally do it would be more than enough to distiguish defs as superior buff/debuff and make it apparent that as team size goes up so does their ability to support them.

I generally shy away from changes that involve a buff in one state only to be removed in another. But defender team damage is more than adequate once you factor in their forcemultiplication, it is only solo they could use a bit more. Just as their buff/debuff is more than enough solo, but could use a bit more in teams to ensure they stand above other support AT's.


 

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If I were doing defender balancing (aside from a whole whack of individual power tweaks) I'd do something similar as mentioned here.
ie damage boost while solo that scales down relative to the number of teammates within a given range.
*Proly like a 10-15% boost while solo, down to 0% in a full team with everyone within a 60ft range.

But at the same time I'd give them a powerboost effect that scales up from 0 to x % based on the number of teammates.
*Like up to a 15% powerboost effect.

While a powerboost effect wouldn't benefit everything defs do it would cover a lot. In addition to a heap of power tweaks I'd personally do it would be more than enough to distiguish defs as superior buff/debuff and make it apparent that as team size goes up so does their ability to support them.

I generally shy away from changes that involve a buff in one state only to be removed in another. But defender team damage is more than adequate once you factor in their forcemultiplication, it is only solo they could use a bit more. Just as their buff/debuff is more than enough solo, but could use a bit more in teams to ensure they stand above other support AT's.

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Nice idea. I like it.


"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator

 

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If I were doing defender balancing (aside from a whole whack of individual power tweaks) I'd do something similar as mentioned here.
ie damage boost while solo that scales down relative to the number of teammates within a given range.
*Proly like a 10-15% boost while solo, down to 0% in a full team with everyone within a 60ft range.

But at the same time I'd give them a powerboost effect that scales up from 0 to x % based on the number of teammates.
*Like up to a 15% powerboost effect.

While a powerboost effect wouldn't benefit everything defs do it would cover a lot. In addition to a heap of power tweaks I'd personally do it would be more than enough to distiguish defs as superior buff/debuff and make it apparent that as team size goes up so does their ability to support them.

I generally shy away from changes that involve a buff in one state only to be removed in another. But defender team damage is more than adequate once you factor in their forcemultiplication, it is only solo they could use a bit more. Just as their buff/debuff is more than enough solo, but could use a bit more in teams to ensure they stand above other support AT's.

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Nice idea. I like it.

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I kinda like this too. It's small enough to not really break anything, but also would address the bigger issues people seem to have.

And it's thematic: Defenders doing less damage, but more (de)buffing/healing on a team because they're focusing more on their teammates.

I'd say shave it down to 14% both ways just for ease of numbers.


Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the
Repeat Offenders

Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize

 

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I generally shy away from changes that involve a buff in one state only to be removed in another. But defender team damage is more than adequate once you factor in their forcemultiplication, it is only solo they could use a bit more.

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While I like the idea, I am 99.9998% sure we are never going to see them add something to the game where merely being near teammates debuffs your damage.


Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

 

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I generally shy away from changes that involve a buff in one state only to be removed in another. But defender team damage is more than adequate once you factor in their forcemultiplication, it is only solo they could use a bit more.

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While I like the idea, I am 99.9998% sure we are never going to see them add something to the game where merely being near teammates debuffs your damage.

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I didn't see anything about a debuff to damage. Simply a buff to damage with no teammates around and you lose it with teammates nearby, but gain a powerboost effect.


 

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Simply a buff to damage with no teammates around and you lose it with teammates nearby, but gain a powerboost effect.

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Right. So I log into the game and am able to do X damage.
I join a team and while near teammates I do X - Y damage, but I get some nebulous, mostly invisible effect.
Knowing all the other benefits defenders get on a team (the ability to use your powers on teammates as well as yourself in addition to whatever they bring), I love the idea even without the powerboost effect.
Despite my love of the idea, I am 99.9998% sure we are never going to see them add something to the game where merely being near teammates debuffs your damage.


Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

 

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If I were doing defender balancing (aside from a whole whack of individual power tweaks) I'd do something similar as mentioned here.
ie damage boost while solo that scales down relative to the number of teammates within a given range.
*Proly like a 10-15% boost while solo, down to 0% in a full team with everyone within a 60ft range.

But at the same time I'd give them a powerboost effect that scales up from 0 to x % based on the number of teammates.
*Like up to a 15% powerboost effect.

While a powerboost effect wouldn't benefit everything defs do it would cover a lot. In addition to a heap of power tweaks I'd personally do it would be more than enough to distiguish defs as superior buff/debuff and make it apparent that as team size goes up so does their ability to support them.

I generally shy away from changes that involve a buff in one state only to be removed in another. But defender team damage is more than adequate once you factor in their forcemultiplication, it is only solo they could use a bit more. Just as their buff/debuff is more than enough solo, but could use a bit more in teams to ensure they stand above other support AT's.

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I'm not in favor of any vigilance tweak that is based on what the team does, or it's size, or anything else that is outside the defender's control. Especially when it can conflict or be less or more useful depending on which defender power set it being played. That's one of the problems with the current inherent.

Take the case where you have a forcefielder on a team with an empath. The empath's heals aren't going to see much use, fortitude will be redundant except for the damage boost, RAs while nice aren't likely to be team making or breaking and Clear Mind pretty redundant except against foes that use sleeps.

What the empath is going to wind up doing is spend most of his/her time blasting and the more players on the team the less effective the empath will be.

What I could go for along the lines that you are suggesting is making vigilance a toggle power. When it's toggled off it's a 33% reduction in endurance costs for the defender and when it's togged on it's a 33% damage buff instead. (That's one SO's worth in either direction)

That would allow the defender to slot their powers in what even manner is best for that player/power set combination and it's can't be seen as a debuff in any particular situation since it is entirely under the defender's control.


-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson

 

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Simply a buff to damage with no teammates around and you lose it with teammates nearby, but gain a powerboost effect.

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Right. So I log into the game and am able to do X damage.
I join a team and while near teammates I do X - Y damage, but I get some nebulous, mostly invisible effect.
Knowing all the other benefits defenders get on a team (the ability to use your powers on teammates as well as yourself in addition to whatever they bring), I love the idea even without the powerboost effect.
Despite my love of the idea, I am 99.9998% sure we are never going to see them add something to the game where merely being near teammates debuffs your damage.

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I agree and it is why I said I generally shy away from such ideas.

It would be a straight increase in every way to defender performance, but you are right someone would construe that it is a nerf.

I would hope that if someone is capable of noticing the damage of:
Powerburst going from ~160 damage while solo down to ~150
(and getting upset about it)

They'd also notice:
Dispersion bubble going from 15.6% up to 17% (troller is 11.7%) so 33% better in a team than a troller.

Or heal other (everyone loves green almost as much as they love orange numbers) going from 511 to 551. (troller is 450.3) so 19% better in a team than a troller.
(and being happy about it).

Other that, I don't personally have a solution for defs because I believe wholeheartedly that their team damage is fine. Increasing the amount of damage they can do in teams in conjuction with their forcemultiplication is worrisome. At the same time corrs and trollers step all over their toes in terms of buff/debuff ability which is especially noticeable with a large team.

I wouldn't say Castle would never go for an idea like this, he did propose a domination change that had something similar to this, but more like an 80% damage swing. It was thankfully shot down, but the premise was sound. Just hard to sell to the masses.


 

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Despite my love of the idea, I am 99.9998% sure we are never going to see them add something to the game where merely being near teammates debuffs your damage.

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Yeah. Conditional buffs are equivalent to conditional debuffs, under the opposite conditions. Also, conditional buffs are getting really overdone, especially ones that have that whiff of "encouraged (forced) teaming" about them.

Vigilance, for example.


 

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Suggestion for Vigilance: make it work as a discount based on the Defender's endurance bar. That's it. Yay. Now you can solo, and it provides a benefit for being active.

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This may be the answer. Unlike attempts to buff defenders into "corrs that emphasize buffs," it's still unique.


A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!

 

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Unique is good. Some of the unique suggestions for Vigilance I've seen have been smashing the cottage rule and making it inspiration related. My suggestion: defender insps are PBAoE buffs. Another suggestion I've seen: defenders get a copy of the buff whenever a nearby teammate pops an insp.


 

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Unique is good. Some of the unique suggestions for Vigilance I've seen have been smashing the cottage rule and making it inspiration related. My suggestion: defender insps are PBAoE buffs. Another suggestion I've seen: defenders get a copy of the buff whenever a nearby teammate pops an insp.

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Aren't defenders already awesome on teams? If any buff for a defender should be made, I would think solo performance is where you would want to look.


Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

 

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Defenders are totally fine on teams. The argument that they bring less than controllers fails on two basic levels.

1. Very Few Controllers actually do as much or more damage than Defenders can on teams. A couple of outlying builds.

2. Most Controller players don't have the time and focus to really be 100% with both their primary and their secondary. Defenders only have 1 set that requires that kind of attention (1 set meaning their primary and not their secondary, I don't mean 1 particular powerset).


I would support a changed to Vigilance that allows Defenders to solo better.


Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.

 

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1: Hold, stun, and confuse are 100%, perfect mitigation when they hit. The knockdown patches of Ice Slick, FR, and earthquake are perfect mitigation. Controllers bring these to the table: you don't need defensive buffs when the enemies aren't able to hit back.

2: Defender damage is comparable to controller damage pre-pets. once pets are involved, defenders aren't even close. All pets except imps ALSO add more control to the team- more mitigation and more offense, all in one.

3: Controller buff/debuff capability is often on par with defenders. Defender blasts may get extra debuff abilities, but ice control has slow/-recharge, earth has heavy defense debuffs, and fire has massive damage.

There is really nothing a defender brings to a team that a controller can't do better, including protecting the entire team while increasing the damage output of the entire team.


119088 - Outcasts Overcharged. Heroic.

 

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Unique is good. Some of the unique suggestions for Vigilance I've seen have been smashing the cottage rule and making it inspiration related. My suggestion: defender insps are PBAoE buffs. Another suggestion I've seen: defenders get a copy of the buff whenever a nearby teammate pops an insp.

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Aren't defenders already awesome on teams? If any buff for a defender should be made, I would think solo performance is where you would want to look.

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buff all defender base damage to start and then adjust the inconsistencies in support sets up and down accordingly and adjust sonic blast down some. Vigilance is really just a side issue compared to those concerns though.


 

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1: Hold, stun, and confuse are 100%, perfect mitigation when they hit. The knockdown patches of Ice Slick, FR, and earthquake are perfect mitigation. Controllers bring these to the table: you don't need defensive buffs when the enemies aren't able to hit back.

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Overused controls that keep the enemy spread out and make it take longer to kill spawns. KD patches are NOT perfect mitigation (but they are very good). You don't need controls when you have defensive buffs/debuffs.

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Defender damage is comparable to controller damage pre-pets. once pets are involved, defenders aren't even close. All pets except imps ALSO add more control to the team- more mitigation and more offense, all in one.

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Most controller AoE damage pales in comparison to what defenders can do, especially on teams.

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There is really nothing a defender brings to a team that a controller can't do better, including protecting the entire team while increasing the damage output of the entire team.


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I disagree.


Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

 

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1: Hold, stun, and confuse are 100%, perfect mitigation when they hit. The knockdown patches of Ice Slick, FR, and earthquake are perfect mitigation. Controllers bring these to the table: you don't need defensive buffs when the enemies aren't able to hit back.

2: Defender damage is comparable to controller damage pre-pets. once pets are involved, defenders aren't even close. All pets except imps ALSO add more control to the team- more mitigation and more offense, all in one.

3: Controller buff/debuff capability is often on par with defenders. Defender blasts may get extra debuff abilities, but ice control has slow/-recharge, earth has heavy defense debuffs, and fire has massive damage.

There is really nothing a defender brings to a team that a controller can't do better, including protecting the entire team while increasing the damage output of the entire team.

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1. It works the other way too, with enough buff/debuff you require next to no control at which point additional aoe damage is "better"

2. What controller pets are so awesome that they turn the tide this much in team play? I agree the pets are killer solo, but imps vaporize in teams, block people, or over-agro, stoney/JF are st, the plant pet still seems to suck, Singy is more control (see point #1). That leaves phantasm and PA. With multiple targets PA encounters significant heal-back, heck of a control tool though in big teams. Phant is ok.

3. I agree, they are different. Defs add direct damage, trollers add additional mitigation and generally less direct-aoe damage.

I can tell you right now my fire/storm troller is a friggin beast (even post LS nerf ) Huge damage, great control. Probably my fastest solo toon (have scrappers, blasters, corrs, brute) and no slouch in teams either. My personal damage is through the roof.

It can't touch what my storm/sonic does in teams though. I hit freezing rain+howl and everything falls over seconds later from buffing my teams aoe damage so much. AV's disintegrate. The fastest Katie/ITF/RSF runs I've personally done have always been with my storm/son.

I know that is sonic doing a lot of the leg work, but I don't see how that is any different than citing fire being massive for damage.

So with regard to you last comment, I disagree.


 

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You know, it's funny to me that I started a thread to discuss these exact same issues and was told I didn't know what I was talking about.

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You didn't. That doesn't mean there aren't potential problems, just that you did not know how to talk about them. Your difficult experience was more predicated on inefficient build and playstyle choices and had little to do with any potential issues defenders might have (if a lot of people were to try to build and play defenders as you did, that would, however, be a problem as well; I think that is unlikely).

You might have trouble opening a drawer and conclude there is a problem with the drawer. But if you were pulling up on the drawer instead of out, you might be wrong or you might be right. Someone would have to try to pull the drawer out in order to know.

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Actually, I did.

I compared the stats of a Defender and a Scrapper, and noted that the Defender had lower health, lower damage and lower defenses than the Scrapper, then noted that the usual design of characters is to have high defense and low offense, low defense and high offense, or balanced offense and defense. I noted that Defenders have low defense AND low offense.

I was then told I was wrong, and that Defenders are gods with plenty of offense and defense and that they apparently routinely solo AVs and GMs.

I originally suggested boosting Defender damage, and was told it wasn't needed and that I didn't know what I was talking about.

I later suggested boosting the defensive capacity of certain sets by allowing self buffing, and I was again told I didn't know what I was talking about, that doing this would break the game.


Say what you like, my Force Field Defender is FAR weaker than any other character I've ever played. I have no personal defenses to speak of (in part due to my build, I don't use the standard "defenses" of Force Bolt and Detention Bubble), and almost no offense to speak of. On teams, I'm the guy that has to be babysat, and who actually does next to nothing while there. Every now and then, I rebubble the team, and then I float nearby so they get the effect of Dispersion Bubble. I can attack and contribute 30 or so points of damage (compared to the 300-600 damage the enemy is doing, or the 200 damage other members of the team are doing), but then I come under fire, and I have neither the defense nor the health to survive.

I've played every class to some appreciable level, though not all the power sets. I stand by my assertion that the Defender class is the least capable, least powerful and perhaps most tellingly, least FUN class to play.

I'd completely get behind anything done to boost damage, but I think the better course is simply to balance the hampered sets that can't defend themselves.


 

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Say what you like, my Force Field Defender is FAR weaker than any other character I've ever played. I have no personal defenses to speak of (in part due to my build, I don't use the standard "defenses" of Force Bolt and Detention Bubble), and almost no offense to speak of.

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Didn't you start a thread talking about how weak your defender was and the end outcome of that thread was that you built it poorly? Yup. I remember that.

EDIT: Ooops, should have read more. Your issues were your fault. I'm not saying FF is a great set. I think FF does have issues. So FF should be fixed. That has absolutely nothing to do with archetype balance.


Be well, people of CoH.

 

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I compared the stats of a Defender and a Scrapper

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The first and most obvious flaw I see with that is Scrappers are self-contained units, meant to be solo-friendly and not need outside assistance. They have high damage and high defense, but generally bring nothing to a team to help the other players.

Defenders have low damage and low PERSONAL defense (with exceptions), but bring a lot to the table and help other people on the team. A Scrapper's defense is personal, while a Defender's is outward-reaching. Maybe a Defender can't Heal Other themselves, but that doesn't mean they don't offer any defense.

This thread, however, is comparing two team-oriented units, not one solo unit to a team unit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

 

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True, but what's being missed is that there are numerous threads that argue the same thing from different directions. I compared Defenders to Scrappers (from the standpoint that both ATs need to face the same challenges, yet the Defender hasn't the tools to do so), and this thread compares the Controller to the Defender and reaches a similar conclusion.

My build may have been somewhat unusual, but as I said there, I actually had BETTER personal defenses than I would have had without the build I had used.

Either way, how I built the character would not change the fact that the Defender has less than half of the health, damage and defense of the Scrapper.

That is, they do less damage, and they have less ability to survive damage. Since the game amounts to defeating foes with damage before they defeat you, this is the final measure of playability. You have to be able to do damage or survive damage (or both). Many Defenders can't do this adequately.

That's why I say they need to either boost damage for Defenders or boost their personal defenses. I lean toward the latter because there are sets that would benefit disporportionally from a universal damage buff. Some sets are also less hindered defensively. Debuffing sets benefit from the effect of the debuffs just as much as the team does, but buffing sets like Force Fields can't benefit the Defender as he can't buff himself. It's my feeling this is where the first look should happen.


I should add, Scrappers are not as reliant on a team, but neither are Tankers, Blasters or Controllers. No AT depends on a team as much as a Defender. When I play a Defender, I feel more like a sidekick than a hero. I need the team because I can't defend myself, and I need the team to defeat my foes for me because I'm barely able to do it for myself. No other class, not even Controllers, needs to say that.


 

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No AT depends on a team as much as a Defender.

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By design. No AT does as well on a team as a defender.

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When I play a Defender, I feel more like a sidekick than a hero. I need the team because I can't defend myself, and I need the team to defeat my foes for me because I'm barely able to do it for myself.

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When I play a defender I feel like a god-maker or god-destroyer. Very few things in the game are as satisfying as buffing a team into a killing machine or debuffing enemies into mewling kittens. You do not have to play defenders if those things do not appeal to you. Go hit something with a stick and enjoy, that is fun too.


Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

 

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Many Defenders played and built by me can't do this adequately.

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Fixed that for you.

/insomnia sucks.


Be well, people of CoH.

 

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True, but what's being missed is that there are numerous threads that argue the same thing from different directions. I compared Defenders to Scrappers (from the standpoint that both ATs need to face the same challenges, yet the Defender hasn't the tools to do so), and this thread compares the Controller to the Defender and reaches a similar conclusion.

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Bloody freaking what?

This thread is a discussion of the disparity of controller damage in relation to the values of controller buffs/debuffs, specifically in light of how they compare to defender buffs/debuffs and defender damage output, and only because the two ATs overlap in a general "team role" environment.

Your thread was a blatantly obvious ruse designed to portray defenders as incompetent or incapable in solo situations via a build which was deliberately constructed to underperform in every environment and then compared to a well built scrapper in hopes of conning the developers into issuing unnecessary buffs which would finally permit you to build your Marvel and DC "homages" as completely as you wish.

Jesus H. Christ, do you really believe everyone reading these forums is stupid?