Defenders vs Controller Disparity.

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Yes, it was meant to appease those who hated the sweeping nerfs on all AoE controls that also came in I5.

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Do you have a reference? To my recollection, the AoE control nerf happened at the same time but was a separate issue and came with no balancing counter-buffs whatsoever.

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From the I5 patch notes (emphasis mine)
[*]Controllers have a new Inherent Ability called Containment. All Controllers will do double damage (+100% unenhanced base Damage) to a target (non pvp) that is Immobilized, Disoriented, Slept or Held. Increasing the non-Pet damage potential of all Controllers. This change is intended to give them a more balanced and even game-play experience throughout all of their levels. [*]Controller AoE Holds, Disorients and Sleeps (and a few others like Quicksand and Ice Slick) recharge times have been increased and duration reduced, to balance the new increased damage [*]AoE Immobilize and Phase Shift powers were not affected. [*]Volcanic Gasses duration was not affected.

Reference

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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson

If defenver vs. controller controversy is like this, it's going to be laughable to read the response to hero corruptors.

Though I would not be surprised if vigilance gets a buff first.

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A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!

Give Defenders mez protection. There. I'll play a Defender again.

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Controllers have always somewhat trod on Defender territory, but the two ATs at least play completely differently. Numbers might favor Controllers, but I always enjoyed playing Defenders more. Rather, I could never stand playing Controllers. They would always bore me to tears. I like having a set dedicated to damage.

Corruptors, on the other hand, play pretty much exactly the same as Defenders. The difference lies in numbers, and Corruptors tend to have the advantage there. Who cares if they provide a few points less of defense, resistance or healing than Defenders do when you've got 2 or 3 of them on a team?

Corruptors will heavily infringe upon Defender territory, and I'll bet that they'll even take a good chunk out of Blasters, too.

Defenders and Corruptors are just way too similar, and, as datamining can show, damage trumps all when it comes to popularity.

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What do Force Fields and Sonics get, Doc? They already have mez protection.

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What do Force Fields and Sonics get, Doc? They already have mez protection.

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Not to sleep =P

I'd probably put a regen buff comparable to Triage Beacon in their Dispersion bubbles.

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How about a change to the inherent where the more teammates you have, the better the primary performs, and the less teammates you have the better the secondary performs?


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This is unique and could be interesting. Make the solo defender actually have better damage than the solo corrupter (and the corrupter have better buff/debuff). IIt would make the set interesting to play. Add mez protection and suddenly Defenders are both unique and worth playing.

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Woe unto the poor Defender, having to deal with mezzes just like Blasters, Controllers, Corruptors, non-Domination Dominators, and non-Dwarf Kheldians.


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Blasters: Can use their first two attacks even when mezzed
Controllers: Have access to an epic that gives mezz protection
Dominators: Have mezz protection when in domination
Keldians: Have mezz protection in dwarf form

Care to try again?

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Corruptors, on the other hand, play pretty much exactly the same as Defenders. The difference lies in numbers, and Corruptors tend to have the advantage there. Who cares if they provide a few points less of defense, resistance or healing than Defenders do when you've got 2 or 3 of them on a team?

Corruptors will heavily infringe upon Defender territory, and I'll bet that they'll even take a good chunk out of Blasters, too.

Defenders and Corruptors are just way too similar, and, as datamining can show, damage trumps all when it comes to popularity.

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You now what's weird? I love to play debuffing defenders; Dark/Sonic, Cold/Ice, Rad/Rad. But I've tried leveling corruptors and found them boring for some reason. I do have one high level corr, a 48 Sonic/Rad but I rarely play it.

So while you suggest they are very similar, there are still players that find one better (or more fun) than the other. And even though Corr is supposedly a higher damage AT, I find the Defender much more entertaining.

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Woe unto the poor Defender, having to deal with mezzes just like Blasters, Controllers, Corruptors, non-Domination Dominators, and non-Dwarf Kheldians.


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Blasters: Can use their first two attacks even when mezzed
Controllers: Have access to an epic that gives mezz protection
Dominators: Have mezz protection when in domination
Keldians: Have mezz protection in dwarf form

Care to try again?

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Um, you really didn't disprove his statement. You really just summarized what he said.

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Their sarcasm has unfortunately blurred their points.

One was trying to say defenders aren't especially vulnerable to mez. One was trying to say they are.

Re: Miladys
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Controller AoE Holds, Disorients and Sleeps (and a few others like Quicksand and Ice Slick) recharge times have been increased and duration reduced, to balance the new increased damage

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Even after all these years, this patch note still makes me want to say "AoE holds, disorients, sleeps, quicksand, ice slick... what damage?!"

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So I was going to kneejerk with a "SO WHAT ELSE IS NEW" reply, but you put so much effort into the post that I slept on it.

I think the root of the problem is this: the devs hate crowd control, but love damage. They want control powers to suck for as many ATs as they can get away with, but want all ATs to be able to deal damage. Result: Control powers are artificially sucktastic for ATs such as defenders, while controller damage only sucks for the 2 seconds it takes for Containment to kick in.

This suggests one way to fix it: Share the team-role bending love. Subdue could be a 100% mag 4 root (like controller roots), Will Domination could be a 100% mag 4 sleep (like Mesmerize), Petrifying Gaze Stunning Shot Bitter Freeze Ray Screech and Scramble Thoughts could recharge faster and deal decent damage, Freeze Ray and Tesla Cage could deal better damage (like controller holds), Howling Twilight Dark Pit Repulsion Bomb and Thunder Clap could be mag 3 stuns (like controller stuns), and ZOMGTRICKARROW. This is just defender changes, so it's not exactly how I'd fix it if I were king, since I'd also get to adjust Containment if I were king, but it's close.

Doesn't help all the defender sets, true, but some defender sets have issues with or without comparing them to controllers.

[/ QUOTE ]While they are at it why not get rid of the stupid accuracy penalty control powers have? To me it always felt like you were being punished for doing your job by having poorer accuracy on AoE control yet blasters dont get anything like this on their AoE damage. In some cases like nukes blasters get a bonus to accuracy these kinds of powers. Since aoe controls take forever and a day + 1 to come back their shouldnt be any penalty to them because you have to make them count when you use them.

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Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator

Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!

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So I was going to kneejerk with a "SO WHAT ELSE IS NEW" reply, but you put so much effort into the post that I slept on it.

I think the root of the problem is this: the devs hate crowd control, but love damage. They want control powers to suck for as many ATs as they can get away with, but want all ATs to be able to deal damage. Result: Control powers are artificially sucktastic for ATs such as defenders, while controller damage only sucks for the 2 seconds it takes for Containment to kick in.

This suggests one way to fix it: Share the team-role bending love. Subdue could be a 100% mag 4 root (like controller roots), Will Domination could be a 100% mag 4 sleep (like Mesmerize), Petrifying Gaze Stunning Shot Bitter Freeze Ray Screech and Scramble Thoughts could recharge faster and deal decent damage, Freeze Ray and Tesla Cage could deal better damage (like controller holds), Howling Twilight Dark Pit Repulsion Bomb and Thunder Clap could be mag 3 stuns (like controller stuns), and ZOMGTRICKARROW. This is just defender changes, so it's not exactly how I'd fix it if I were king, since I'd also get to adjust Containment if I were king, but it's close.

Doesn't help all the defender sets, true, but some defender sets have issues with or without comparing them to controllers.

[/ QUOTE ]While they are at it why not get rid of the stupid accuracy penalty control powers have? To me it always felt like you were being punished for doing your job by having poorer accuracy on AoE control yet blasters dont get anything like this on their AoE damage. In some cases like nukes blasters get a bonus to accuracy these kinds of powers. Since aoe controls take forever and a day + 1 to come back their shouldnt be any penalty to them because you have to make them count when you use them.

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Didn't the accuracy and recharge penalties on all the AoE holds have something to do with all the "City of Statues" complaints from launch?

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Controller- It doesn't make sense to me that this AT has the damage it has.

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I disagree. I can see how people get upset on containment with the one epic AOE but at that point in the game, ATs are supposed to get access to things they otherwise wouldnt. Defenders get all kinds of flexibility in the 40s also. The damage otherwise even with containment isnt that awesome. I found Defenders much easier to solo. I think it is the outlying sets (Fire/Kin mainly) that make the perception that the damage is too high a bit of a perception problem.

Lewis

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You're probably right. But to me, Controllers have no primary or secondary that is damage with the exception of pets. And yet, they are granted what they lack. If Controllers get what they lack it's really only fair to do the same for everyone else, but would that even be balanced?

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I did like the idea of the poster that suggested that some of the magnitudes on the Defender powers could be upped to match controllers.

I also liked the idea that the party size getting bigger makes defender buffs better. Basically, add 1% (or some other appropriate) effectiveness per party member (self included). Then, the smaller the party, the more the damage boost. 8% damage boost when solo, 1% damage boost on a team.

OR hey how about taking a point from WOW where you have raid effects. What if everyone's damage output was X% higher with a Defender on the team. Say, 5% global damage buff to the team for ONE defender, with every additional defender giving a 1% buff?

That would ROCK. It would be an UBER inherent for the AT.

Lewis

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Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan

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Didn't the accuracy and recharge penalties on all the AoE holds have something to do with all the "City of Statues" complaints from launch?

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No, the accuracy penalties were always present. Well, except for Wormhole and maybe EM Pulse. They dont have them. IIRC.

Lewis

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Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan

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Controller- It doesn't make sense to me that this AT has the damage it has.

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I've wondered about that myself.

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Controller- It doesn't make sense to me that this AT has the damage it has.

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I've wondered about that myself.

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Except for outlying builds (every AT has them) it isnt as much as people seem to think. Defenders have much more flexible and unconditional damage.

Also, I've never wondered about containment because the controller recharges doubled and the durations were set to 60% due to whining about control. The devs stated containment was to balance the 70% loss in AoE control effectiveness.

Lewis

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Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan

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what damage?!"

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In I5, there was lots of it, you just had to slot for it. Slotting for 1 Acc, 5 Dam and controllers could blow out single target damage at a great clip. ED brought it back into an area where I thought it made sense again and the Epic attack reduction brought it below where it makes sense to me (just the single targets, reducing the AoEs made sense to me). Granted, losing three Singularities hurt my damage quite a bit, so I am not saying most controllers came out ahead even in I5.

In the end, they took all the damage away, really, leaving just the reductions in control. I do still like the way controllers play, but I do miss my 3 Sings.

I'll never forget, in I5, taking down a +1 Rkti boss (Soldier) in 15 seconds, on my Grav/Storm, sans pet. I stopped playing my controller, because that isn't why I had made him (my own fault, really, for switching to the blaster-like build).

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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

Why are you asking me?

Oh, disparity. Nevermind!

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You know, it's funny to me that I started a thread to discuss these exact same issues and was told I didn't know what I was talking about.

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Woe unto the poor Defender, having to deal with mezzes just like Blasters, Controllers, Corruptors, non-Domination Dominators, and non-Dwarf Kheldians.


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Blasters: Can use their first two attacks even when mezzed
Controllers: Have access to an epic that gives mezz protection
Dominators: Have mezz protection when in domination
Keldians: Have mezz protection in dwarf form

Care to try again?

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Defenders: get mez protection in two primaries
Corruptors: get mez protection in two secondaries

Tier 1 and 2 blasts from the primary and tier 1 from the secondary aren't helping Blasters that much - it's something but it's not like they can get Sonic Resonance, Force Field, or Traps.

Domination has to be charged up and available. If someone's complaining about being perma-mezzed then they're too incompetent to have Domination charged up when needed.

Controller epic power doesn't have a permanent duration until you're over 300% recharge in it and doesn't act as a break free.

Not all Khelds take Dwarf form in their builds.

And I still say that if you can't solo a Defender "at a reasonable speed" then either you have an unreasonable idea of what that means or else you're simply incompetent and should go back to Tankers, Scrappers, and Brutes so you can continue the "walk in, hit things" playstyle that's apparently the only way you can play. They're probably also the same people who complain about being in permadebt with their Blasters.

What's wrong with Defenders is that they whine a lot about Controllers - as far as I can tell, solely because of Kinetics and its effect on Containment. Should Vigilance work while solo? Sure.

But that's not the same as "Defenders should do at least as much damage as Tankers" - which has been said this thread, by the same person who said that they "didn't want more than Corruptors" and apparently doesn't have a clue what the AT modifiers are, nor does it mean that "Defenders are gimp and can't solo" - implied throughout the thread, nor does it mean that their buff/debuff modifiers are too low.

And for those clamoring for mez protection, just petition for every single mez to be removed from the game. Why not? It's what you're asking for - if every AT has blanket mez protection why have them in the first place? Why not just boost the damage of the attacks? Oh, wait, then you'd want more hit points or resistance. Just go read paragonwiki's writeups of the arcs, since you don't want to have to play the game anyway, you just want to walk through it and collect things.

Suggestion for Vigilance: make it work as a discount based on the Defender's endurance bar. That's it. Yay. Now you can solo, and it provides a benefit for being active.

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You know, it's funny to me that I started a thread to discuss these exact same issues and was told I didn't know what I was talking about.

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You didn't. That doesn't mean there aren't potential problems, just that you did not know how to talk about them. Your difficult experience was more predicated on inefficient build and playstyle choices and had little to do with any potential issues defenders might have (if a lot of people were to try to build and play defenders as you did, that would, however, be a problem as well; I think that is unlikely).

You might have trouble opening a drawer and conclude there is a problem with the drawer. But if you were pulling up on the drawer instead of out, you might be wrong or you might be right. Someone would have to try to pull the drawer out in order to know.

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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

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Didn't the accuracy and recharge penalties on all the AoE holds have something to do with all the "City of Statues" complaints from launch?

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No, the accuracy penalties were always present. Well, except for Wormhole and maybe EM Pulse. They dont have them. IIRC.

Lewis

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Wormhole was originally single target, I suspect they forgot to add the acc penalty when they made it AoE. (and I assumed they had, I didn't know it was full acc until you mentioned it. Yay learning!) As for EMPulse...it's a tier 9? Tier 9s are usually a bit above the standard power.

That aside, I think the acc penalties are fine for the AoE stuns/holds. True blaster AoE's don't have the penalties, but blaster AoEs don't neutralize most of the spawn in one shot either (except for nukes, but they have their own set of penalties.) Just put two acc SOs in it (not a huge loss with ED) and you're good. I could see getting rid of the penalty on immobs, although they do have a lesser penalty then the hard controls already.

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what damage?!"

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In I5, there was lots of it, you just had to slot for it.

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Right, but the patch note lists off a whole bunch of powers that do little or no damage so...

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Wormhole was originally single target

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I remember. I was pissed, I liked my single target wormhole. I like the area one more, but it took me a while to warm up to it. I kinda liked the precision of the single target one. Teleport foe just ISNT the same.

Lewis

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Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan