Defenders vs Controller Disparity.

If people aren't playing Defenders because Controllers are as good as, or better than, Defenders at everything Defenders do well, and Defenders are at a balanced power level compared to ATs in general and to enemies, then a nerf to Controllers would be justified.

Not that I'm suggesting such is currently the case. However, the blanket statement "nerfing class X won't make more people play class Y" is not guaranteed truth.

We are speaking of controllers versus defenders, as they are now; not some transcendent "guaranteed truth". So your comment is irrelevant, especially if you aren't willing to "suggest that is the case", and especially when that "case" is wrong.

The problem is that defenders are underperforming compared to all the other ATs with with the same buff/debuff powersets. You could remove controllers from the game outright and I doubt it would make people play defenders much more; controllers are not the problem. Nerf controllers and people would instead play masterminds, or corruptors, or scrappers, or Khedians, or whatever; not defenders. And I frankly think it's pretty obnoxious to essentially try to force people to play defenders by kneecapping another AT that has nothing to do with the problem.

Well, as you say, they would get the benefit to their base damage, just not to Containment. And no one argues that Controllers aren't premium teaming ATs. And no one really argues that the reason that they are premium teaming ATs is because of their damage-buffed, Contained Fireballs. So while I think you're correct in the "will mess up controller (damage) values while teamed", I don't think it's an important issue. Seriously, if Controllers get this (relatively minor) nerf and it puts a nail in the whole "OMG, Controllers do too much damage" argument, I think it's quite a worthwhile nerf. Most of the arguments do center around damage-capped, Contained damage.

My only response tho this is DUH!

You do realize that you are ignoring the possibility that Defender could actually be more in balance with the other ATs that you're not looking at than the Controllers. And, if that is so, then Controllers would, indeed, need to be tweaked a bit instead of Defenders. Balance is funny that way.

You can't remove 2 (or 3) ATs from the mix of 14 and say "X at is under performing among these 3 ATs, it needs to be boosted" the performance among of all 14 ATs needs to be taken into account.

Defiance change? I assume you mean Vigilance. Other than my TA Defender (who appreciates the hell out of it), it's a very underwhelming inherent. But do you want to know something? The reasoning for the inherent being the way it is is that Defenders were exactly where the dev's wanted them to be at the time, so the inherent couldn't shift their balance too far one way or the other. This means that the devs, at least at that point in time, felt the Defender AT was the most balanced.

If the Defenders are still the most balanced, that would mean the Controller AT is the outlier. I agree that Controllers are fine until you factor in certain APP powers, and that's probably what needs to be looked at first. Defenders, while possibly the most balanced AT we have, seem to need something to stand out. Turning them into Mini-Blasters with Debuffs isn't going to do it because then they're too good. Balancing their damage output with all the ways some sets have to boost that damage is a tough thing to do.

And moving back to Vigilance, while it's not a great inherent it doesn't really hurt the Defender at all for having it. They "got along fine" without anything before, though I do wish it included the Defender's own HP so it's at least useful while solo. Of course, Kheldians have had the "My Inherent does nothing while solo!" problem since the start, and theirs is two-fold in that if there are any other Khelds on the team, that's a slot taken that doesn't help their inherent at all either. That hasn't stopped all-Kheld teams from wiping mobs from the face of the earth though.

Personally I would say that Masterminds are just as powerful compared to the other ATs in the game as Controllers are. Like Controllers, they are able to overcome their base damage and damage caps through the application of additional damage than a Defender doesn't get access to. So if we are limiting the comparison to ATs with buff/debuff attributes, then MMs and Controllers seem to be the standard to which we are trying to balance.

Corruptors are in many ways bound by the same limitations as Defenders. They do not have problems with Force Field having no damage boost because they do not have Force Field, but I expect this to become a more prominent issue with Proliferation. They also do not have problems with Empathy having no damage boost because they do not have Empathy, and the Set they get to replace it DOES have damage boosts.

Still, there are team-oriented sets that Corruptors get access to, such as /Thermal, /Cold and /Sonic, which do not perform solo to the same level as /Rad, and /Kin. In this, they are similar to Defenders, and need much the same closer look. It is noted that in Going Rogue Defenders will have to compete with Corruptors, but it is also true that in Going Rogue Corruptors will have to compete with Controllers. And Corruptors do NOT have better buff/debuff powers than Controllers. (in fact, in many ways Controllers are stronger with the same Secondary, as they get better results with the Set's control powers)

This is not to say that Containment is not like trying to kill gnats with a shotgun, and it could not use to be more concentrated in the area in which it is trying to be of help. That's not necessarily nerfing Controllers to help Defenders, though. And thus probably not relevant to this particular discussion.

Except that I've played defenders, and deleted them. They aren't in balance with other ATs; they are weaker. Nearly crippled solo; they are almost the only AT that I hear begging people to team with them so they can complete missions. "I'm a Defender, I can't kill **** " to quote one recent player.

And the game has changed, and the other ATs have generally gotten buffs.

They are weak, not balanced. If the other ATs played as badly I'd quit the game; they simply aren't fun.

Because Kheldians can do damage. And Kheldians do benefit from having each other on a team now; slow resistance IIRC.