Defenders vs Controller Disparity.
By
Adelie,
Posted on: 2009-07-20 04:50 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
[ QUOTE ]
I have to take issue with this, to some extent. Soloing on some Defenders is downright awful. Empaths, for example, are basically playing with one power set, their blasts, and an astoundingly weak set at that.
[/ QUOTE ]
I would say 1.5 sets. There are powers in the Empathy set that the Defender can use on himself. Heal Aura comes to mind, as does Recovery Aura.
By the way, my Empathy/Electric Solos just fine.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
[ QUOTE ]
I would say 1.5 sets. There are powers in the Empathy set that the Defender can use on himself. Heal Aura comes to mind, as does Recovery Aura.
By the way, my Empathy/Electric Solos just fine.
[/ QUOTE ]
Here's another thing to think about: can controllers actually leverage their secondaries better than defenders? Emp defenders solo have a few powers that work on themselves. An /emp controller has those, plus buffable pets.
One of my favorite powers for my earth/rad is choking cloud. if I open with stalagmites or earthquake, I'm in the center of the mob before they can hit back, and CC is doing the work for me. I would imagine the same would work for plant or fire. How many defenders can reliably use CC solo? (I have and love the lockdown proc in CC.)
Fulcrum shift: for defenders, this is somewhat risky solo because it requires getting into the center of a group. Controllers with a spawn even temporarily locked down can get in and use it in safety. It even buffs pets that are in melee, which is an added bonus.
The buff and debuff sets seem to have a lot more synergy with a control primary than with a blast secondary. I'm not saying that defenders can never use Fulcrum shift or choking cloud solo, but it's easier and safer for a controller to do so. I would think that trick arrow and storm offer no particular extra synergy, while cold (come I16), empathy, FF (maybe), and sonic all have powers that benefit from having a pet. Rad and Kin can both use their more dangerous powers with greater safety.
119088 - Outcasts Overcharged. Heroic.
Just kinda scanning through Mids and noticed that Controllers pretty much rely of 3 attacks; an immob, a hold and an AoE hold + 1 pet and maybe a standby fourth
Defenders have a fairly consistent eight. Defenders also have (with a couple of exceptions) an Aim type ability.
At first impression, this would lead me to believe that mid level Defenders can outperform Controllers in single target damage chains.
It also seems to me that by getting their debuffs/buffs sooner than most Controllers get their hard AoE controls; their survivability would be better as would their contributions to teams.
In the late game there are two Epic pools that allow for additional damage boosts and some nice controls.
Looking at Defender sets like Dark/, Rad/ and Cold/; /Ice, /Dark and /Sonic (given the beefed buffs)... I'm like, "Wow."
The only thing that seems disparate, to me, are the inherents (and maybe the pets).
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would say 1.5 sets. There are powers in the Empathy set that the Defender can use on himself. Heal Aura comes to mind, as does Recovery Aura.
By the way, my Empathy/Electric Solos just fine.
[/ QUOTE ]
Here's another thing to think about: can controllers actually leverage their secondaries better than defenders? Emp defenders solo have a few powers that work on themselves. An /emp controller has those, plus buffable pets.
One of my favorite powers for my earth/rad is choking cloud. if I open with stalagmites or earthquake, I'm in the center of the mob before they can hit back, and CC is doing the work for me. I would imagine the same would work for plant or fire. How many defenders can reliably use CC solo? (I have and love the lockdown proc in CC.)
Fulcrum shift: for defenders, this is somewhat risky solo because it requires getting into the center of a group. Controllers with a spawn even temporarily locked down can get in and use it in safety. It even buffs pets that are in melee, which is an added bonus.
The buff and debuff sets seem to have a lot more synergy with a control primary than with a blast secondary. I'm not saying that defenders can never use Fulcrum shift or choking cloud solo, but it's easier and safer for a controller to do so. I would think that trick arrow and storm offer no particular extra synergy, while cold (come I16), empathy, FF (maybe), and sonic all have powers that benefit from having a pet. Rad and Kin can both use their more dangerous powers with greater safety.
[/ QUOTE ]
Kinetics for trollers has been a sore spot for me for a long time (even though I have a 50 mind/kin and am now leveling a plant/kin).
Simply put Kin is designed around the idea of high personal risk and high reward. Overall Kin brings very little personal mitigation to a squishy in melee range. However, controllers can completely disregard the intent of the set via their entire agro crushing primary.
It is no small coincidence that Kin tends to be the biggest outlier when discussing the AT as well.
Personally as long as defs (and trollers) can solo at a minimally acceptable pace I think they are fine as a whole in that regard. I mean I like to solo as much as the next guy, but in an MMO it just seems strange to me that everything needs to be capable of solo'ing extremely well.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would say 1.5 sets. There are powers in the Empathy set that the Defender can use on himself. Heal Aura comes to mind, as does Recovery Aura.
By the way, my Empathy/Electric Solos just fine.
[/ QUOTE ]
Here's another thing to think about: can controllers actually leverage their secondaries better than defenders? Emp defenders solo have a few powers that work on themselves. An /emp controller has those, plus buffable pets.
One of my favorite powers for my earth/rad is choking cloud. if I open with stalagmites or earthquake, I'm in the center of the mob before they can hit back, and CC is doing the work for me. I would imagine the same would work for plant or fire. How many defenders can reliably use CC solo? (I have and love the lockdown proc in CC.)
Fulcrum shift: for defenders, this is somewhat risky solo because it requires getting into the center of a group. Controllers with a spawn even temporarily locked down can get in and use it in safety. It even buffs pets that are in melee, which is an added bonus.
The buff and debuff sets seem to have a lot more synergy with a control primary than with a blast secondary. I'm not saying that defenders can never use Fulcrum shift or choking cloud solo, but it's easier and safer for a controller to do so. I would think that trick arrow and storm offer no particular extra synergy, while cold (come I16), empathy, FF (maybe), and sonic all have powers that benefit from having a pet. Rad and Kin can both use their more dangerous powers with greater safety.
[/ QUOTE ]
Adding a pet to each of the Defender Epics Power Pools and fixing Vigilance so that it provides a reliable benefit and also provides it solo would most likely fix most of the disparities.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yet, Defenders and Corruptors are able to solo just fine (apparently) with a damage modifier of 0.65 or 0.75.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have to take issue with this, to some extent. Soloing on some Defenders is downright awful. Empaths, for example, are basically playing with one power set, their blasts, and an astoundingly weak set at that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which is why I added the parenthetical "apparently". The irony is that the same people who claim Defenders solo just fine with a 0.65 modifier are likely the same ones who claim a Controller must have a 100% Containment critical in order to be able to solo. I'm just pointing out the illogic in that statement.
The truth is, as I said, it is mostly in the early levels, when the Controller's access to attacks is limited, that the bonus from Containment is most needed. In fact, there is no real reason that Containment should work on anything but the attacks that it was intended to work on, the single target holds and immobilizes in the Primary. That Containment works on Epic powers and Power Pool attacks (and a few Secondary powers, although not all of them) is merely for consistency. That bonus should not be taken for granted.
And in fact, Epics have already been nerfed once, because they had been given additional damage above what they normally would get, which was no longer needed when Containment arrived.
I will also add that if you are not slotting your Archetype's main attacks for damage, then you should not complain if you don't do any damage. And this isn't really an issue until 22, and Containment was added to address the difficulty Controllers had soloing prior to 32. (When they got pets) So I don't think Containment was intended to replace slotting for damage.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yet, Defenders and Corruptors are able to solo just fine (apparently) with a damage modifier of 0.65 or 0.75.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have to take issue with this, to some extent. Soloing on some Defenders is downright awful. Empaths, for example, are basically playing with one power set, their blasts, and an astoundingly weak set at that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which is why I added the parenthetical "apparently". The irony is that the same people who claim Defenders solo just fine with a 0.65 modifier are likely the same ones who claim a Controller must have a 100% Containment critical in order to be able to solo. I'm just pointing out the illogic in that statement.
[/ QUOTE ]
This really makes no sense. I don't think anyone has said that now except you. And yes it is quite the illogical statement.
The defs that "solo" fine (or at least acceptably according to most posters) certainly don't deal damage consistent with a 0.65 modifier. There must be a reason so many people celebrate sonic blast 
[ QUOTE ]
The truth is, as I said, it is mostly in the early levels, when the Controller's access to attacks is limited, that the bonus from Containment is most needed. In fact, there is no real reason that Containment should work on anything but the attacks that it was intended to work on, the single target holds and immobilizes in the Primary.
[/ QUOTE ]
You know for a fact these powers were the ONLY powers containment was intended to work on? What about all those other powers they specifically coded for it to work on? So mind shouldn't get containment damage on levitate, or mesmerize? What about grav with lift and propel?
[ QUOTE ]
That Containment works on Epic powers and Power Pool attacks (and a few Secondary powers, although not all of them) is merely for consistency. That bonus should not be taken for granted.
[/ QUOTE ]
I could say you shouldn't be taking the ability to enhance damage for granted. It would be about as ridiculous. The aspect is in the game with no reason for it to change. I'll take it for granted until a suitable reason presents itself.
[ QUOTE ]
And in fact, Epics have already been nerfed once, because they had been given additional damage above what they normally would get, which was no longer needed when Containment arrived.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nerf...Fix... choose your poison. They were artificially boosted to appear attractive prior to containment being added. When containment was added they were not adjusted and were dealing quite ridiculous levels of damage.
I enjoyed two shotting entire spawns of 16 with my mind/kin/fire with practically zero risk, but come on...
[ QUOTE ]
I will also add that if you are not slotting your Archetype's main attacks for damage, then you should not complain if you don't do any damage. And this isn't really an issue until 22, and Containment was added to address the difficulty Controllers had soloing prior to 32. (When they got pets) So I don't think Containment was intended to replace slotting for damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
Controllers "main" attacks also happen to be their "main" survivability tools, which also happen to typically deal "damage" over 9 seconds. I'd bet my account that very few controllers relative to the population slot their st immobs and holds as an "attack". Either the majority of players are stupid complainers, or it just is not common sense to forgo your main purpose (control) in order to improve 9 second dot powers.
Of course they are called "Controllers", I suppose people should just realize they should be slotting damage SO's instead of enhancing CONTROL
[ QUOTE ]
Adding a pet to each of the Defender Epics Power Pools and fixing Vigilance so that it provides a reliable benefit and also provides it solo would most likely fix most of the disparities.
[/ QUOTE ]
Doing something so Vigilance is useful ALL the time, not simply SOME of the time, is needed.
Oh please no, on the pet. I'm already a full time babysitter on my Defender. I don't need fuel added to the fire...
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Adding a pet to each of the Defender Epics Power Pools and fixing Vigilance so that it provides a reliable benefit and also provides it solo would most likely fix most of the disparities.
[/ QUOTE ]
Doing something so Vigilance is useful ALL the time, not simply SOME of the time, is needed.
Oh please no, on the pet. I'm already a full time babysitter on my Defender. I don't need fuel added to the fire...
[/ QUOTE ]
The defender is a force multiplier on a team. Solo there is no force to multiply. Adding a pet to the epic allows the defender to continue to make full use of the primary even while solo. Making vigilance useful while solo and a pet would solve most of the defender's problems in all the power sets.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
A pet in the Epics wouldn't help for a majority of the character's leveling life, aka what I assume most people want a soloing improvement for.
Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!
[ QUOTE ]
FREEM these really were the better arguments below, you cherry picked the less strong arguments and didn't address the stronger arguments found here.
[/ QUOTE ]
The better arguments collapse like a house of cards if the logical structure of the argument lies on unproven statements.
Unproven statement: controllers better than defenders in damage, control + controllers equal to defenders in buff/debuffs
Leading to
"Better argument": Defenders not bringing anything to the team that a controller cannot
Unproven statement: defenders are awful at soloing / can barely solo (controllers toast mobs solo)
Leading to
"Better argument": Defenders are penalised for being a team AT, controllers are not.
What is really meant by the common refrain "defenders do not bring anything to the team that controllers cannot?"
It isn't because controllers do more damage than defenders. The problem is that teams do not recruit either ATs to bring damage to the table, but to bring damage mitigation and buffing to the high damage dealing ATs.
Controllers come as a two-in-one package of having crowd control and buff/debuff sets. Any perceived problem in teaming lies in perception that the defender is a pure support AT. People build defenders only wanting to support, neglecting their blast powers, and are disappointed when they do not support as well as controllers. Of course not.
People do not see is that control can be redundant, but damage is not, especially direct, unconditional burst damage. Arguments about "I (defender) is better replaced by a controller" comes from a prima donna support mindset that they are going to be the only "support" AT in the team. I don't need 5 controllers, but I am happy to have 2 controller and 3 defenders.
People who say 8 fire/rads will move faster than 8 rad/rad, need to ask themselves whether 8 ice/rads will move faster than 2 ice/rads + 6 rad/rads.
The second question is not that defenders solo awful. They don't solo awful. Controllers just solo better than defenders.
Why does a team support AT solo better than a hybrid AT? The reason is not damage, but damage mitigation.
As someone pointed out above, there is no reason to suppose why a controller needs containment if a defender can manage fine with .65 scale. The answer is -- there isn't. A controller will continue to solo safely whether it has containment or not. The question is simply whether soloing is annoying slow at a reasonable pace.
This is because all controllers have sufficient damage mitigation from their primaries to enable them to survive to finish dealing enough damage to foes.
Why there is a vast difference in solo ability in defenders, is not insufficient damage but insufficient damage mitigation. Defenders do not have burst damage so like controllers they must survive long enough to apply steady damage to defeat foes.
Debuffing defenders do better solo because they can apply their debuffs in a solo situation. Buffing defenders cannot, and when many of their good powers are unusable in a solo situation, they are effectively just playing with their secondaries.
Directly buffing defender damage isn't going to solve the problem. Nor taking away containment from controller. The problem defender sets won't become more soloable.
People also compare a controller's epic blasts to a defender without epics. Actually, difficult-to-solo defender sets become vastly easier to solo after gaining access to epic controls.
It would be better if defenders can apply a weak form of their ally buffs to themselves, or have a better inherent. Inherent is the easiest thing to do. Make the inherent such that they solo better, or are so utterly desirable to teams that they will always be in a team.
"Honesty is for the most part less profitable than dishonesty." -- Plato
Playing Gods (51106) - Heroic Lvl 5-20
What Rough Beast (255143) - Villainous Lvl 40-50
someone please bulldozer this thread before we loop the arguement for a 5th time...
[ QUOTE ]
A pet in the Epics wouldn't help for a majority of the character's leveling life, aka what I assume most people want a soloing improvement for.
[/ QUOTE ]
The resistance/defense toggle for blasters comes in epics and that would also be a drastic improvement for them for soloing during the character's leveling life, yet there it is.
Most Controllers get their pets at 32 and their tier 9 secondary at 38. Villian PPPs have pets. Most pets (not henchemn) come late in a toons life anyway.
A late life pet for Defenders wouldn't be inappropriate.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
[ QUOTE ]
someone please bulldozer this thread before we loop the arguement for a 5th time...
[/ QUOTE ]
I like your new avatar.
[ QUOTE ]
Adding a pet to each of the Defender Epics Power Pools and fixing Vigilance so that it provides a reliable benefit and also provides it solo would most likely fix most of the disparities.
[/ QUOTE ]
I would agree with this and add, changing the melee damage modifier on a Defender greatly without doing anything to the ranged damage modifier. Defenders have the hardest time getting into and surviving in melee range. Reward them if they get in there and try to mix it up.
[ QUOTE ]
Why there is a vast difference in solo ability in defenders, is not insufficient damage but insufficient damage mitigation. Defenders do not have burst damage so like controllers they must survive long enough to apply steady damage to defeat foes.
Debuffing defenders do better solo because they can apply their debuffs in a solo situation. Buffing defenders cannot, and when many of their good powers are unusable in a solo situation, they are effectively just playing with their secondaries.
Directly buffing defender damage isn't going to solve the problem. Nor taking away containment from controller. The problem defender sets won't become more soloable.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thank you. I've only been saying this over and over for two weeks now in several different threads.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
someone please bulldozer this thread before we loop the arguement for a 5th time...
[/ QUOTE ]
I like your new avatar.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think it looks like Turbo_Ski is being restrained while looking at the erm...member of the monster that's about to do something very, very bad to her (like in dem adult Japanese cartoons).
Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
someone please bulldozer this thread before we loop the arguement for a 5th time...
[/ QUOTE ]
I like your new avatar.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think it looks like Turbo_Ski is being restrained while looking at the erm...member of the monster that's about to do something very, very bad to her (like in dem adult Japanese cartoons).
[/ QUOTE ]
Knowing Turbo_Ski, more likely it'll be she doing something bad to the monster.
"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
Characters
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
someone please bulldozer this thread before we loop the arguement for a 5th time...
[/ QUOTE ]
I like your new avatar.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think it looks like Turbo_Ski is being restrained while looking at the erm...member of the monster that's about to do something very, very bad to her (like in dem adult Japanese cartoons).
[/ QUOTE ]
Knowing Turbo_Ski, more likely it'll be she doing something bad to the monster.
[/ QUOTE ]
Original pic
[ QUOTE ]
I would agree with this and add, changing the melee damage modifier on a Defender greatly without doing anything to the ranged damage modifier. Defenders have the hardest time getting into and surviving in melee range. Reward them if they get in there and try to mix it up.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see this as much of a reward in practice, since (a) not all Defenders have meaningful access to melee attacks (I do not consider investing in pool attacks "meaninful") and (b) not all Defender builds or playstyles are suited to even being in melee range for the majority of their powers. (I have little doubt that (b) derives in part from (a).)
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would agree with this and add, changing the melee damage modifier on a Defender greatly without doing anything to the ranged damage modifier. Defenders have the hardest time getting into and surviving in melee range. Reward them if they get in there and try to mix it up.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see this as much of a reward in practice, since (a) not all Defenders have meaningful access to melee attacks (I do not consider investing in pool attacks "meaninful") and (b) not all Defender builds or playstyles are suited to even being in melee range for the majority of their powers. (I have little doubt that (b) derives in part from (a).)
[/ QUOTE ]
I just see it as wrong currently. And since all Defenders have access to a melee attack in their Epics, it would be meaningful for a lot of thematic characters. And because there is so little use of defender melee attacks you don't really have to balance them. Its not like melee range is healthy place for Defenders to hang out.
I don't have a complete suggestion as to how this might be implemented, but I'd like to see mixed assault sets made available to Defenders and Corruptors. By 'mixed assault' I mean identical with or similar to the Dominator secondaries.
It seems to me that a FF/Energy Assault Defender, or something of the kind, would be a lot of fun.
[ QUOTE ]
I would agree with this and add, changing the melee damage modifier on a Defender greatly without doing anything to the ranged damage modifier. Defenders have the hardest time getting into and surviving in melee range. Reward them if they get in there and try to mix it up.
[/ QUOTE ]
Even without a balance reason, do this for simplicity. Having damage modifiers the same on an AT is one fewer number to crunch.
QR
This thread made me dust off my defenders last night and remind myself why I don't play them solo, and where I think their problems lie.
Most of them are in their teens, and in every fight they pop a major artery and bleed end all over the place. I always slot for end reduction and accuracy, and even my other toons with toggles can usually go from spawn to spawn without needing to take a knee.
Not defenders. They can do 2 spawns, on rare occasions 3, but throwing out twice as many attacks, and constantly using their secondaries as well, pretty much makes them need rest far more than rest recharges.
My controllers, on the other hand, usually only need their secondaries in a major fight, if I'm up against bosses or aggro more than one mob. Their AOE uses alot of end but I rarely need it more than once in a fight. So, my controllers almost never use Rest.
I should say that I don't sprint from mob to mob solo, I just walk, usually pausing to look over the situation before going in, so my toons always get some down time between fights, but its not enough to make up for the end use defenders require.
My post-stamina defenders are more manageble end-wise, but, the damage the enemies do, and the number of enemies with powerful ranged attacks, increases. As does the number of hits it takes the defender to kill one of them. I may be able to manage end without alot of down time, but, getting through a fight without my health being well in the red requires a great deal of luck.
The debuffs don't seem to do much of anything. They seem more like a placebo than having any real world effect. I guess without them, I'd be hit 100% of the time instead of 50%, or one shotted by a minion. Yes, that's an exaggeration, but, it's what is going through my mind I'm still beaten within an inch of my life despite stacking on -acc or -dmg.
A controller, on the other hand, avoids melee attacks, and while they still have to deal with ranged, its easy to slot hold duration to the point of being able to keep an entire mob held. The controller will take some hits initially, but, is still in minimal danger while taking his time to kill the mob.
Personally, I accept that a defender is a team AT and just end up not playing my defenders solo. Yes, I CAN solo them, I just don't find it fun to sit and stare at the computer screen with nothing going on at all for a few minutes (well, it seems like a few minutes) every couple of fights. I think its safe to say that most people don't enjoy soloing them.
The difference between defenders and controllers on teams has been argued as much as it can be in this thread. I personally think whether or not a controller or a defender adds more to a team depends entirely on the makeup of the team and the difficulty the team is playing at.
I do think that, unlike every other AT, the defender brings nothing unique to a team and has an inherent that sees very little use compared to that every other AT gets.
Perhaps something along the lines of their inherent increasing their own regeneration and recovery as they lose health and endurance. Although whether that would do them any good on teams post-stamina I haven't played higher level defenders on teasm to know.
@Doctor Gemini
Arc #271637 - Welcome to M.A.G.I. - An alternative first story arc for magic origin heroes. At Hero Registration you heard the jokes about Azuria always losing things. When she loses the entire M.A.G.I. vault, you are chosen to find it.
I'm going to throw out there that Defenders have one of the lowest or the lowest modifier for Melee Damage.
I think this was purposeful to keep them out of melee range to protect them, but then Defenders have sets built for melee range and they get one high damage melee power in most of the Epics. It would be nice to see Defenders rewarded for the huge risk they take when they go into melee range.