Defenders vs Controller Disparity.
By
Adelie,
Posted on: 2009-07-20 04:50 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
So it's time to finally nerf controllers 
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Am I completely missing something?!
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Yes.
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We established that Defender Buffs/Debuffs = Controller Buffs/Debuffs. Or in some cases have a small variation which is generally unnoticable. (Exception: ForceFields) This is fact.
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We established that? Fact? If the variance is unnoticeable, I'd rather have defender AoE blasts over controls. If you prefer controls, have fun. Neither is right or wrong.
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We established that Controllers Damage > Defender Damage in most cases, and similar in best case scenario's. This is fact.
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This is extremely dubious. It is only in the outlier cases where controllers out-damage defenders on teams. Solo, controllers can do well, but on teams, I'll take Ball Lightning and Howl, thank you.
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We also established that Defenders = An archtype that solo's very poorly and slowly.
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Slowly, maybe. Poorly, not so much.
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Defenders offer nothing to a team that a Controller can't offer instead.
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It devastates me that so few people understand how good most defender blast sets are in AoE output.
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Defenders are not "team orientated" AT's anymore then Controllers are. In fact, Controllers are MORE team orientated then Defenders with both primary and secondary sets geared for teaming. Defenders secondary is geared for soloing, else why have it?
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Defender secondaries are BLAST sets. Blast sets which happen to be loaded with AoE powers. AoE powers are much better on teams than solo. Having a blast set does not in anyway imply that the AT was designed to solo. Blasters have a blast set and were also designed to function much better on teams than solo. The three ATs in the game with Blast sets are all designed with teaming in mind. If anything, having a blast set is more a indication of defender's being team oriented than having a buff/debuff primary (Solo designed ATs tend to have buffs, but those usually are only self-affecting ones).
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The disparity in damage between Defenders and Controllers is shocking.
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I agree. They gave controllers AoE damage in their APPs to try to help make up for it, but the longer recharges make it a bit hard. I guess controllers will have to console themselves over their lack of damage with "excellent survival skills through powerful single target and AoE control."
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Please do not use Rad/Sonic or heck, Anything/Sonic as a baseline measurement of performance for Defenders when soloing.
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OK. Please do not use Fire/Kins or heck, Anything Fire/ as a baseline measurement of performance for Controller damage output.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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We all agree that Controllers have excellent survival skills through powerful single target and AoE control. The higher they get, the more powerful they get substantially.
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Yet what I cannot understand is, despite the fact Controllers offer the same amount of utility and buffs, plus have a whole primary devoted to control, plus can solo perfectly well and offer good damage... people STILL say Defenders should be bad soloers because of what they offer a team. Am I completely missing something?!
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Defenders offer nothing to a team that a Controller can't offer instead. Saying that Defenders offer stuff to a team so should suck at soloing is not justification people.
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Defenders are not "team orientated" AT's anymore then Controllers are. In fact, Controllers are MORE team orientated then Defenders with both primary and secondary sets geared for teaming.
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Also, this whole factor of "force multiplication" as a reason for keeping Defenders as poor as they are is rediculous. Are people seriously saying that 8 Controllers with secondaries ranging from Radiation to Kinetics to ForceFields to Empathy - just like Defenders - are any less of a force multiplier? If anything they are a bigger force multiplier because of the nature of their primary.
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The disparity in damage between Defenders and Controllers is shocking.
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The disparity in buffs/debuffs between the two is almost non exsistant.
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I think these parts of your statement are really well thought out. Its not that Defenders can't do anything really. Its that to do things Defenders live and breathe in masochism world. They kill things slowly more dangerously than Controllers and Corrupters which really are the only two archetypes you should compare with Defenders.
Its that when you compare a Defender to a Controller or a Corrupter you know in your heart that you got the short end of the stick. Its like when your older sister gets a car for her 16th birthday and you get a computer for your 16th birthday. Maybe you can find ways to use the computer and be happy, but you really wanted the car.
I STAND BY MY STATEMENT: The right new inherent can balance Defenders just fine. Containment did wonders for Controllers.
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All ATs do as well on teams as Defenders, though it's arguable Defenders bring more to teams. The thing is that no other AT suffers as severely for their contribution to teams.
Tankers bring aggro control, and have the benefit of high health as a result of their role.
Blasters bring pure damage, which benefits them as much when they're solo as when they're teamed.
Scrappers bring boss-killing criticals, which benefits them as much solo as when teamed.
Controllers have controls, which equates to defense for themselves and the team.
Defenders that debuff benefit the team with their debuffs, which also help the Defender solo;
Defenders with Buffs can buff the team, but largely cannot buff themselves, which hampers them solo.
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Does this theory account for the fact that the last time we received any knowledge about archetype performance, it was blasters and not defenders that were levelling the slowest overall? Its possibly the case that the I11 changes addressed that fact, and its now Defenders that level the slowest, but that's not certain and even if that's true no theory I've ever read has ever been able to explain the contradiction between the "logic" behind defender performance lag and the reality that they don't actually do so when played by real players, or at least never have in the past.
The only assumption that I believe gets implied a lot is that the vast majority of players suck, and as such their experiences don't count. Unfortunately, this game is primarily made for them, not us.
Its a fact, though, that as of I11 one thing we do know is that while Defenders accepted slower soloing for team buffing, Blasters paid for higher offense by being dead a lot. Its difficult to argue that Defenders suffered the most for their archetypal design decisions within that context.
(My own theory is that on average blasters die far more often than forum readers are willing to acknowledge, and defenders team more often and are better protected and take less risk in those teams when they do. It suggests that while the performance bottleneck is offensive for higher skilled players, its defensive for lower skilled players and that makes evaluating which archetypes gets the better tools a tricky to assess without knowing the skill level of the average player. Even more tricky is the fact that this ratio changes as the players progress in level range, which probably explains why blasters have often been observed to level faster initially, then slow down markedly in the mid-levels.)
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
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This reminds me of how single tracked Deadliest Warrior on Spike is.
They turned all the would be combatants into roman gladiators whether their native techniques matched that format or not.
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I couldn't stand the show for that very reason.
"The vaunted ninja was a master of subterfuge, stealth, misdirection, and craftiness, where the majority of their mythical properties and rumors of sorcery were likely perpetuated by them for the purpose of scaring their opponents into submission, easing their goals of assassination and infiltration!
Now let's watch us pit the ninja against your average, run-of-the-mill Roman grunt in pitched, close-range, arena combat--you know, the kind of combat scenario a ninja would never let itself get stuck into in the first place!"
Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~
All I know is that with GR I'll never have to roll a Defender if I want a Blueside character who buffs/debuffs and blasts. Especially with Archery and TA going to Corrupters in I16.
Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!
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Its that when you compare a Defender to a Controller or a Corrupter you know in your heart that you got the short end of the stick. Its like when your older sister gets a car for her 16th birthday and you get a computer for your 16th birthday. Maybe you can find ways to use the computer and be happy, but you really wanted the car.
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But you don't solve this discrepancy by asking daddy to take away your sisters car and if you want a car too expect it to be in the same price range and be prepared to give up your computer.
I'm not going to argue that there isn't a "problem" but it's not where everyone wants to put it. I've played controllers, I've played defenders. Those pretty controls don't do a whole heck of a lot when blasters, Defendes, and scrappers are melting mobs before your AoE has recharged. Due to this you aren't sucking up the containment bonus unless you are paired with other controllers so this mystical damage spike becomes moot, and on the content where all these buffs and debuffs are really needed the controls fly out of the window because of the purple triangles.
What this argument is really about is "Defenders don't solo fast" (or more accurately "Don't solo fast unless built for it") not "Who brings what to a team" so stop trying to knee cap controllers because your solo-e-peen is made tiny by a well built solo controller.
I prefer it when Defenders talk about their problems without trying to Nerf Controller's in the process. This is like the old Scrappers do too much damage and have almost the same defense as Tank arguments, which while true on one level where flawed because in top end team content those 5% points added up fast. Different classes do different things and if you need a buff please don't get it on the backs of another class with a different focus.
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We established that Defender Buffs/Debuffs = Controller Buffs/Debuffs. Or in some cases have a small variation which is generally unnoticable. (Exception: ForceFields) This is fact.
We established that Controllers Damage > Defender Damage in most cases, and similar in best case scenario's. This is fact.
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No, we haven't established that.
If your entire argument rests on the second, then it's not going to work.
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We also established that Defenders = An archtype that solo's very poorly and slowly.
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Let us just make something clear, yes Defenders can solo.
Yes Defenders can complete missions on heroic difficulty without the assistance of other players.
Yes even Forcefield and Empathy Defenders are capable of this. (I should know, I have both.)
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We haven't established that. Defenders are not limited to soloing poorly only heroic. My non-rad/sonic defenders solo at difficulties 3, 4, 5. Again you have cherry picked the "standard" for all defenders.
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The disparity in damage between Defenders and Controllers is shocking.
P.S Please do not use Rad/Sonic or heck, Anything/Sonic as a baseline measurement of performance for Defenders when soloing.
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You still haven't proven that, having cherry picked your comparisons, and ignoring the presence of multiple attacks, both ST and AoE. You need to stop using FF/elec as a baseline measurement of defenders.
"Honesty is for the most part less profitable than dishonesty." -- Plato
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Defenders offer nothing to a team that a Controller can't offer instead. Saying that Defenders offer stuff to a team so should suck at soloing is not justification people.
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^THIS^
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If Controllers ever get access to Dark Miasma, that's when I'll worry about it.
Dark Miasma is awesome.
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@Laxx
"You will bend to my will, with or without your precious sanity." --Dragon Mage
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We established that? Fact? If the variance is unnoticeable, I'd rather have defender AoE blasts over controls. If you prefer controls, have fun. Neither is right or wrong.
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AoE stuns, holds, and immobilizes all do damage in addition to their mitigation. With containment, they do even more. Powers like Carrion Creepers and Hot Feet blow the best defender AoEs out of the water.
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This is extremely dubious. It is only in the outlier cases where controllers out-damage defenders on teams. Solo, controllers can do well, but on teams, I'll take Ball Lightning and Howl, thank you.
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I'll take a large AoE immobilize on a stunned, held, or confused spawn, plus containment damage. See above: Carrion Creepers, flashfires, stalagmites... AoE damage, with containment, AND mitigation built in. That's also before the epics. Contained Fissure or Fireball... The outliers GREATLY outdamage defenders, even in AoE. the "midrange" sets like stone and plant still have an advantage though.
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Slowly, maybe. Poorly, not so much.
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Agreed. Played well, they have as much survivability as any other squishy, they just move slower through spawns.
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It devastates me that so few people understand how good most defender blast sets are in AoE output.
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And how some people will refuse to acknowledge that controller sets are right at that level, while still adding to the team. Not jsut the controls, which are significant, but the debuffs of earth and ice, the slows in Mind, and the pure chaos that Plant can make happen.
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Defender secondaries are BLAST sets. Blast sets which happen to be loaded with AoE powers. AoE powers are much better on teams than solo. Having a blast set does not in anyway imply that the AT was designed to solo. Blasters have a blast set and were also designed to function much better on teams than solo. The three ATs in the game with Blast sets are all designed with teaming in mind. If anything, having a blast set is more a indication of defender's being team oriented than having a buff/debuff primary (Solo designed ATs tend to have buffs, but those usually are only self-affecting ones).
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I'm not sure what "loaded" with AoE means here?
Archery: 1 cone, 1 targeted, 1 location
Dark: 1 targeted, 3 cones, nuke
Electric: 1 target, 1 PBAoE, nuke, pet
Energy: 1 targeted, 1 cone, nuke
Ice: 1 location, nuke
Psy: 1 cone, 1 targeted, nuke
Sonic: 3 cones, nuke
Rad: 1 targeted, 1 cone, 1 PBAoE, nuke
Ok, so ice has 2, Archery, Psi and Energy have 3, Electric, Sonic, and Rad have 4, and Dark has 5 powers that are AoE (and remember, I counted nukes in that)
Earth Control: 2 targeted
Fire Control: 3 targeted, 1 PBAoE
Gravity: 1 targeted
Ice: 2 targeted
Illusion: 1 PBAoE, and I'm counting PA.
Mind: 1 cone
Plant: 1 targeted + creepers
Mind and Gravity both get 1. Plant, Earth, Illusion, and Ice get 2. Fire winds up with 4 total. Keeping in mind that every control set except mind ALSO gets pets that can do damage independent of the controller. (and add even more control to the team). I'm not dedicated enough to work up individual powers, but the AoE immobilize that even gravity has, recharges fast enough to use it often. I would bet that controllers are a lot closer to defenders than you're admitting.
And again, this is before APPs
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I agree. They gave controllers AoE damage in their APPs to try to help make up for it, but the longer recharges make it a bit hard. I guess controllers will have to console themselves over their lack of damage with "excellent survival skills through powerful single target and AoE control."
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Damage isn't what controllers lack. Even the ones that aren't outliers have more damage solo, plus the same buff/debuff capability, plus controls to make the entire team safer. The only thing defenders have on controllers is the buffs and debuffs in the blast sets: -def in rad, and especially -res in sonic.
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OK. Please do not use Fire/Kins or heck, Anything Fire/ as a baseline measurement of performance for Controller damage output.
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You can use my earth/rad/earth? Or by next week, a plant/rad that I've been working up. Give me a few months, and I'll have a plant/storm that will leave the most AoE-centric defender wondering where all that damage came from.
Fire/ is the most damaging, but earth/ plant/ and illusion/ are all pretty good in the damage category, solo or in teams. What baseline are you suggesting?
119088 - Outcasts Overcharged. Heroic.
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So it's time to finally nerf controllers
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Finally? As I recall, Controllers have lived through a few nerfs.
Loss of multi-pets.
AoE mezzes doubled in recharged, halved in duration.
Epic damage reduced.
I'd rather see a Defender buff.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I've only been playing since I9, so I haven't witnessed any major controller nerfs. I have witnessed and partaken in Controllers and Defenders breaking the game in silly ways, and even Castle officially recognizing RO for leveraging the game mechanics to cheat. I think it's fair to say that overall controllers are at least as good as defenders. Given all that I've witnessed in game I don't feel like a buff for defenders is in order, except to make it undisputable that Defenders are the higher damage AT. That said, I much rather see controllers nerfed.
I think that Blasters were underpowered for the same reason Controllers became overpowered. Having two damage sets made Blasters a subpar class overall because only the very strong could survive enough to do their omgwtf damage. Controllers on the other hand have the best mitigation short of a Tank or MM (and even then it's situational as to which of the three brings the most mitigation) which made them less amazing, but giving them even average damage output was overpowering.
It's really a case of whether the glass is half empty or half full, but somebody needs to just fill it up with nerf and hand it to controllers.
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Luminara:
My thread said there was a disparity between Defenders and Scrappers. This thread says there's a disparity between Defenders and Controllers. There certainly seems to be a similarity there.
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This thread exists and is active because controllers have access to defender powers and can use them almost as efficiently as defenders and have Containment and have full access to control powers at maximal durations/effectiveness, all of which combined displays defenders in an unfavorable light in both solo and team situations when compared to controllers.
Your thread exists because you want to play Iron Man, don't want to play an Energy blaster with the Force APP and are still somehow convinced that you can fool the developers, by fabricating "evidence" and deflecting criticism of those fabrications with threats of moderator action and pretentious behavior, into buffing everything that you play to god-like levels so you can fulfill your fantasy of playing Marvel and DC comic book characters.
The similarity between the two threads extends to the fact that they involve ATs, and not one iota beyond that.
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I don't appreciate the attempt to demonize me by describing my discussion as some kind of "ruse."
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A spade is a spade.
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You obviously don't know my intent in anything I've posted so please don't presume to judge my intent for yourself or anyone else.
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I know exactly what your intent is because you've been singing the same tune for three years. Every thread you start revolves around your desire to have the entire game changed to meet your need to play Iron Man, Superman, The Martian Manhunter, Thor or whichever trademarked character has caught your fancy this week/month. Every time you post, it's been to complain because the game doesn't allow you to play those characters, or to suggest changes to the game which would allow you to play those characters, or to try to scare someone away from replying to your posts if you think they'll ruin whatever chance you think you have of conning the developers into making those changes.
I don't even have to say that you're more transparent than glass because you've documented all of this. Your entire post history speaks for itself and anyone with two functioning neurons can see it. Your agenda is so obvious and out in the open that no-one can not see it.
And that agenda has no place in this thread, nor will this thread serve that agenda. Take it somewhere else.
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I've only been playing since I9, so I haven't witnessed any major controller nerfs. I have witnessed and partaken in Controllers and Defenders breaking the game in silly ways, and even Castle officially recognizing RO for leveraging the game mechanics to cheat. I think it's fair to say that overall controllers are at least as good as defenders. Given all that I've witnessed in game I don't feel like a buff for defenders is in order, except to make it undisputable that Defenders are the higher damage AT. That said, I much rather see controllers nerfed.
I think that Blasters were underpowered for the same reason Controllers became overpowered. Having two damage sets made Blasters a subpar class overall because only the very strong could survive enough to do their omgwtf damage. Controllers on the other hand have the best mitigation short of a Tank or MM (and even then it's situational as to which of the three brings the most mitigation) which made them less amazing, but giving them even average damage output was overpowering.
It's really a case of whether the glass is half empty or half full, but somebody needs to just fill it up with nerf and hand it to controllers.
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People keep bringing up RO and holding it up as an example. Doing this is doing so in the dark especially if you compare this to standard teams. If you wish to bring up RO then do so as a comparison to a controller version of RO such as Pressure Cookers.
8 controllers on a team requiring a single one of them to set containment for all the rest to be able to unleash masses of double damage. Buffs/debuffs that stack to the caps just like RO (because the buff values aren't different enough to prevent it).
Every thing on the map locked down every spawn so that it can't do a thing and even the ability to lock down an AV with triangles up.
Then add in 24 fire imps dealing damage and spreading aggro from the 1 in 1,000,000 mob that didn't get locked down from mass controls.
Anything an RO type defender team can do an RO style controller team can do too. I'd venture to say that the controllers do it faster, safer, and just as ridiculously as the defenders do.
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AoE stuns, holds, and immobilizes all do damage
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They do not all do damage (I think the majority of the hard controls do no damage). Of the ones that do damage, the vast majority are negligible, even with containment. The few that do reasonable damage (Roots is honestly the only one I can think of, but I might be forgetting one), are the exception.
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Powers like Carrion Creepers and Hot Feet blow the best defender AoEs out of the water.
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Hot Feet is very good. Carrion Creepers recharge is too long to be very good, but it is nice when up.
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The outliers GREATLY outdamage defenders, even in AoE. the "midrange" sets like stone and plant still have an advantage though.
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I disagree with your assessment.
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And how some people will refuse to acknowledge that controller sets are right at that level, while still adding to the team.
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Controllers are fine. I acknowledge that without issue. Most defenders can out damage most controllers on teams. Whether or not that happens in game is debatable, since many defender players seem to skimp out on their AoEs.
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I would bet that controllers are a lot closer to defenders than you're admitting.
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I'll take that bet (of course, you'd have to try to figure out how far behind I think controllers are first, since I haven't stated a magnitude of the difference I feel exists. I did parrot Peacemoon's shocking phrase, but that was a bit on the side of parody). Obviously, Fire control has gobs of damage in contained Hot Feet, but that damage is actually relatively slow to happen (some secondaries can speed that up, naturally). Plant is respectable, thanks to Seeds, and Illusion can also do well. I'll take Archery, Dark, Rad, and Sonic over all but Fire control (and late game Archery probably gives Fire control a good run). The other blast sets are all at least on par with Plant and Ill, and better than the other control sets.
As an aside, let me take a moment to discuss spawn collapse. One of the biggest drawbacks that controllers bring to a team is the fact that they have a tendency to control enemy spawns. "Everyone" LOVES lockdown. Disoriented, Held, Feared, Slept, Confused, and Immobilized spawns all have one thing in common. They fail to collapse (disoriented or confused spawns will occasionally collapse by random chance) and remain spread out. Controller players see their lovely controls and are all proud of themselves and feel good about those orange 3s and 4s flying above the spread spawns head. I die inside everytime (and I am sometimes guilty when I play a controller). Controllers (subconsciously) like that spread, it lets them leverage their containment damage, because the AoErs can't kill everything before they get a chance to attack.
The magnitude of difference on a team between a defender and controller is really pretty small. It is however these minutia that we seem to be fretting over, so I discuss it with people for the joy of discussion. I think it is personal preference as opposed to any performance issue. Will spawn collapse and fast recharging AoE blasts go a bit faster? Probably. So much so that its any kind of issue? Probably not.
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You can use my earth/rad/earth?
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How about a Rad/Dark/Dark defender?
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I'll have a plant/storm that will leave the most AoE-centric defender wondering where all that damage came from.
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Plant/Storm is very fun to watch; an SG mate leveled one to 50 when Plant was first proliferated. I'd rather have a Cold/Archery/Elec or Storm/Dark/Dark.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Anything an RO type defender team can do an RO style controller team can do too. I'd venture to say that the controllers do it faster, safer, and just as ridiculously as the defenders do.
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I have never run with RO (that I know of), so maybe they would agree with your statement.
I do however run theme teams pretty frequently. All one AT teams are very common. My SG generally does not design characters for our members (the only time we really did that was for our Rad/Ice defenders; our all Electric blast defenders team happened by accident, we just happened to have a bunch of people make some on the same server, and then invited others to join us once we realized it, which was months after some of the characters had been made).
So when we run an all scrapper event or an all controller event or an all defender event (etc.), it is not with a plan or design. We grab whatever we have of that AT and mix it up and go. We might try to have a kin, or maybe hope to have a bubbler or possibly would like 4 Fire blasters, but no one is really under any pressure, its just play what you want. Planned Fire control teams slaughter fast. Hell, accidental Fire control teams slaughter fast. But an Ill/Storm, Fire/Storm, Grav/Storm, Ill/Kin, Plant/FF, Ice/Sonic, Fire/Kin, and Earth/Emp team is only extremely good.
In my experience, throwing together random controllers, who all just want to play, does not become stupid amazing (its merely amazing). Too many tanks, too many people trying to do the same lockdown. In my experience, throwing together random defenders is always stupid amazing. Can you really have too many AoE blasts hitting a spawn, when recharge and endurance are a non-issue? Teams of all controllers use buffs/debuffs, then controls, then kill. Teams of all defenders use buffs/debuffs, then kill. One less step. Its like being on a team of psycho scrappers, only with some of the members buffing as needed in addition to killing.
On more balanced teams, we normally have a Tanker. At that point, almost all need for controls except as an emergency valve are gone. I'd rather have the (even if only slightly) higher buff/debuff values and AoE blasts. I'd never say no to a controller (play what you want), but they just do not bring any value over a defender.
YMMV.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I've only been playing since I9, so I haven't witnessed any major controller nerfs. I have witnessed and partaken in Controllers and Defenders breaking the game in silly ways, and even Castle officially recognizing RO for leveraging the game mechanics to cheat. I think it's fair to say that overall controllers are at least as good as defenders. Given all that I've witnessed in game I don't feel like a buff for defenders is in order, except to make it undisputable that Defenders are the higher damage AT. That said, I much rather see controllers nerfed.
I think that Blasters were underpowered for the same reason Controllers became overpowered. Having two damage sets made Blasters a subpar class overall because only the very strong could survive enough to do their omgwtf damage. Controllers on the other hand have the best mitigation short of a Tank or MM (and even then it's situational as to which of the three brings the most mitigation) which made them less amazing, but giving them even average damage output was overpowering.
It's really a case of whether the glass is half empty or half full, but somebody needs to just fill it up with nerf and hand it to controllers.
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People keep bringing up RO and holding it up as an example. Doing this is doing so in the dark especially if you compare this to standard teams. If you wish to bring up RO then do so as a comparison to a controller version of RO such as Pressure Cookers.
8 controllers on a team requiring a single one of them to set containment for all the rest to be able to unleash masses of double damage. Buffs/debuffs that stack to the caps just like RO (because the buff values aren't different enough to prevent it).
Every thing on the map locked down every spawn so that it can't do a thing and even the ability to lock down an AV with triangles up.
Then add in 24 fire imps dealing damage and spreading aggro from the 1 in 1,000,000 mob that didn't get locked down from mass controls.
Anything an RO type defender team can do an RO style controller team can do too. I'd venture to say that the controllers do it faster, safer, and just as ridiculously as the defenders do.
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All the more reason to trick all the controllers into buying life time subscriptions then BOOM headshot... with a Nerf rifle of course.
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I'm not sure what "loaded" with AoE means here?
Archery: 1 cone, 1 targeted, 1 location
Dark: 1 targeted, 3 cones, nuke
Electric: 1 target, 1 PBAoE, nuke, pet
Energy: 1 targeted, 1 cone, nuke
Ice: 1 location, nuke
Psy: 1 cone, 1 targeted, nuke
Sonic: 3 cones, nuke
Rad: 1 targeted, 1 cone, 1 PBAoE, nuke
Ok, so ice has 2, Archery, Psi and Energy have 3, Electric, Sonic, and Rad have 4, and Dark has 5 powers that are AoE (and remember, I counted nukes in that)
Earth Control: 2 targeted
Fire Control: 3 targeted, 1 PBAoE
Gravity: 1 targeted
Ice: 2 targeted
Illusion: 1 PBAoE, and I'm counting PA.
Mind: 1 cone
Plant: 1 targeted + creepers
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I understand counting nukes, but not some of those Controller powers. You're counting Stalagmites as a damage attack? Flashfire? That is not reasonable. You can't chain something with a minute-and-a-half base recharge, and it's not worth using once per fight if it does merely the same damage as the attacks you can chain.
You're also talking some serious IOing to get +100% Damage, +50-100% Recharge to hit the once-per-fight mark, and +66-100% Accuracy to overcome the inherent 0.8 multiplier, leaving you with no slots to enhance the dangerously short base mez duration. That runs counter to the "Controllers get damage AND control" claim.
What does your list look like with a more realistic attack power selection?
I wasn't sure which to count, honestly. nukes are a 3-minute base recharge, except Rain of Arrows.
I didn't count anything that did no damage. If it did damage, I put it in, with a few strange things like Creepers (which is not at all hard to perma), Voltaic Sentinel, and Phantom Army.
Honestly, I think controllers are fine. Controller damage, even capped, is still fine. it's when you add containment that things get to be overboard. If only there were a way to add damage to a controller, without doubling the strength of the damage-capped ones. Maybe making containment into a damage buff instead of an extra packet of capped damage? Been saying this for years.
I will admit 2 specific cases where defenders hands-down outshine controllers. AV fights, and GM fights. Controllers are hindered in those by not being able to rely on either controls, or containment. Defenders also have enough time to stack their buffs and debuffs to great effect. For taking on an AV, I'd MUCH rather bring my kin/sonic than any of my controllers. Ditto for dealing with GMs.
Re: spawn collapse. Yes, I see it a lot too, and I'm even guilty of it. Another reason to love plant control: melee enemies will naturally seek each other out and collapse into a smaller group when they're all confused.
Serious IOing? Depends on what you mean by that. You can frankenslot on the cheap, especially things like stun sets: pick up 3 acc/rech/stun in any combination from the stun sets, top off with a trio of damage IOs, and done. Global recharge isn't cheap, but the Basilisk's Gaze set offers it for 4 slots in a hold power, along with decent (58.73 Acc/Rech/hold, 15.23 END reduction at level 30 the way I typically slot them) enhancement to the power itself. They also aren't terribly expensive. and the 4th slot is a 7.5% global recharge.
Creepers requires +200% recharge total to make it perma. 2 level 50 common recharge IOs are 83% Hasten is 70%. AM is 30%, and siphon speed is a stackable 20%. perma-creepers without global recharge is possible with a kin, while a rad would be a few seconds off. Speed boost is +50%, so either one teaming with another kin can get creepers perma with just common IOs and a buff from a teammate. PA needs +300% global recharge, so solo, it's unlikely to get it without heavy slotting of global recharge bonuses. dedicated slotting, Hasten, frankenslotting, can all be used to bring the recharge on these powers down quite a bit.
oh, and I'm not the one who used "shocked" to describe people. You were quoting someone else. Minor nitpick, but I don't like to take credit or blame for what someone else said.
119088 - Outcasts Overcharged. Heroic.
FREEM these really were the better arguments below, you cherry picked the less strong arguments and didn't address the stronger arguments found here.
I'd say that people in general in this thread don't want to change Controllers. Controllers are actually miserable to solo at low levels before they get their pets. I think they are the most complete end game AT, though. I don't see that as a bad thing.
I'm not ready to concede that Defenders do more damage than Controllers, but if I did its not like Defenders are doing so much more damage that we can tell. They are closer to tied if I had to guess. That would still leave Controllers with all the actual control powers they have, that Defenders don't.
To be honest the other problem is generalizing about Defenders; their primaries have the most variance in how they work of any primary or secondary. Rad Defender is very different from a Force Field defender whose very different from a Kinetic Defender whose very different from a dark Defender. For Control Primaries each has a ST Hold, ST Immobolize, Mass Immobilize, Mass Hold, Mitigation Power, etc (Illusion is the biggest odd ball there). Even though Fire has the most damage of all the controllers, and may be in a league of its own. The other controllers are not slouches when it comes to damage because of containment.
I don't think Defenders need a huge damage increase to be balanced. I just think Defenders need something other than the pathetic inherent, NEGLIGENCE, to feel special and not like Harry Potter locked in the cubard eating food scraps.
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We all agree that Controllers have excellent survival skills through powerful single target and AoE control. The higher they get, the more powerful they get substantially.
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Yet what I cannot understand is, despite the fact Controllers offer the same amount of utility and buffs, plus have a whole primary devoted to control, plus can solo perfectly well and offer good damage... people STILL say Defenders should be bad soloers because of what they offer a team. Am I completely missing something?!
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Defenders offer nothing to a team that a Controller can't offer instead. Saying that Defenders offer stuff to a team so should suck at soloing is not justification people.
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Defenders are not "team orientated" AT's anymore then Controllers are. In fact, Controllers are MORE team orientated then Defenders with both primary and secondary sets geared for teaming.
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Also, this whole factor of "force multiplication" as a reason for keeping Defenders as poor as they are is rediculous. Are people seriously saying that 8 Controllers with secondaries ranging from Radiation to Kinetics to ForceFields to Empathy - just like Defenders - are any less of a force multiplier? If anything they are a bigger force multiplier because of the nature of their primary.
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The disparity in damage between Defenders and Controllers is shocking.
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The disparity in buffs/debuffs between the two is almost non exsistant.
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I think these parts of your statement are really well thought out. Its not that Defenders can't do anything really. Its that to do things Defenders live and breathe in masochism world. They kill things slowly more dangerously than Controllers and Corrupters which really are the only two archetypes you should compare with Defenders.
Its that when you compare a Defender to a Controller or a Corrupter you know in your heart that you got the short end of the stick. Its like when your older sister gets a car for her 16th birthday and you get a computer for your 16th birthday. Maybe you can find ways to use the computer and be happy, but you really wanted the car.
I STAND BY MY STATEMENT: The right new inherent can balance Defenders just fine. Containment did wonders for Controllers.
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Yet what I cannot understand is, despite the fact Controllers offer the same amount of utility and buffs, plus have a whole primary devoted to control, plus can solo perfectly well and offer good damage... people STILL say Defenders should be bad soloers because of what they offer a team.
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Logically, it implies controllers should be nerfed if defenders are considered fine.
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I hate to admit this because "nerf" is a four-letter word, but I've been pushing to have controller secondaries decreased. There is a difference between controllers and defenders. A defender has stronger buffs/debuffs. The problem is that it's not enough of a difference when you look at the fact that controllers have all that control. Don't controllers operate at something like 85% of the defender primaries? I feel it should be something like 75%. A controller secondary should bring something to a team. It should make a difference. But it shouldn't make almost as much difference as a defender. When comparing the controller secondaries to the defender primaries, there should be a very noticeable difference between the two. Right now, that difference is subtle.
--edit--
Yes, I do play controllers so I would be having my own characters nerfed. I also play defenders though, and I'd like to see them stand out more than they do.
One other thing.... I don't have a problem with defenders being a team-oriented archetype and I don't have a problem with them being slow soloers. If I feel like soloing, I play an archetype that does it more effectively.
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
Just out of curiosity....
If fire control didn't have imps, and illusion didn't have phantom army, would we be having this discussion?
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Just out of curiosity....
If fire control didn't have imps, and illusion didn't have phantom army, would we be having this discussion?
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I find Hot Feet to be more impressive than Imps, but that is not an empirical study, just an observation.
Lakanna said:
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Controller damage, even capped, is still fine. it's when you add containment that things get to be overboard.
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I might say that the other way around. Controller damage is fine, even with containment. It's when you add damage capping that it can go overboard. I am not sure how much of a problem that is since buffing like that is generally encouraged in a team. The fact that Kins can do it solo is something I have long expressed concern over, although I do not care if it stays as is or gets changed (I mildly prefer a change, and not just for controllers).
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Maybe making containment into a damage buff instead of an extra packet of capped damage? Been saying this for years.
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I do not think that is technically possible. Damage buffs are global to the character, containment damage must be applied situationally per power.
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Controllers are hindered in those by not being able to rely on either controls, or containment.
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Most AVs are trivially immobilized, allowing for containment.
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oh, and I'm not the one who used "shocked" to describe people. You were quoting someone else.
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Fixed the attribution in my post. Thank you for pointing out my error.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Just out of curiosity....
If fire control didn't have imps, and illusion didn't have phantom army, would we be having this discussion?
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Fire Imps are hardly the bread-winner of a Fire/Kin. They're helpful surely, but their randomness and single-target nature with only one attack means they aren't the biggest contributors, especially now that SB doesn't make them attack any faster.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Defenders offer nothing to a team that a Controller can't offer instead. Saying that Defenders offer stuff to a team so should suck at soloing is not justification people.
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^THIS^
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Especially since the Controller Inherent was specifically stated to have the purpose of helping Controllers solo. (And in fact, does just that)