Most Underperforming Powersets.
By
Aces_High,
Posted on: 2009-07-09 21:48 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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I've seen people claim SR is weak, and I've looked at their builds, and I see things like Dodge being taken at level 41 and many other horrendous mistakes. SR is not underperforming nor is it weak nor does it "need" IOs to be good nor does it need the Medicine Pool.
Brute SR is not worse than Scrapper SR. Brute SR is even better than Scrapper SR.
SR is simply misunderstood by many people, maybe even most. With basic, SOed SR you can and will survive teamwipes on a regular basis. You can take down Archvillains if you choose. The set is just that good. But you have to not skip its powers and you do have to be patient with it in the sub-20 game (you'll be paid dividends for this later by having one of the strongest late-games you can get on a melee, if not the strongest. Carnies, Malta, the groups that make others cry? SR eats 'em up. Mask of Vitiation and Sappers? They don't hurt what they don't hit. Fun fact: Mask of Vitiation has a Ranged component.)
I really need to finish my SR guide.
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Whoever says SR is weak has never played the set...
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Oh, honorable mention: Mastermind's Poison. Yes, yes, yes I know it has two SPECIAL SINGLE TARGET debuffs in the game. I don't need to be reminded 1000x times. I have a lvl 50 Merc/Poison (my very first 50 MM)!!! Comparing to Merc/Storm, Merc/Poison truly sucks. I didn't list it as the "most" under-performing only because the special debuff has its place in the game and that is about it. /Poison sucks in pretty much every other area (minus soloing but which MM can't solo??).
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I'm inclined to agree with this. /Poison works brilliantly with Thugs due to the Noxious Gas + Bruiser combo, but I'd imagine it's less impressive with any of the other primaries, and most of the other powers go unnoticed when teamed. It's also quite easy to get overwhelmed against even moderate numbers of opponents.
As for /SR being underpowered... my 46 Claws/SR has thus far defeated every single Elite Boss she's encountered on the first attempt (well alright, Chimera defeated me, but I popped a wakie, a break free and Elude and then finished him off without even taking the time to put my toggles back on) and the only enemies that have really give me trouble in the last 10 levels or so have been Rularuu with their insane accuracy. Besides no set that includes Practiced Brawler can be considered underpowered.
The only risk with /SR is occassionally, very occassionally, an opponent will get lucky and you get two shotted by a Freak Tank or similar, but that's very rare.
Devices: I cautiously put this up. I still adamantly feel most people just play this set incorrectly, but even I can admit it is under-performing in some aspects that, if addressed, could make the secondary much more appealing to the masses.
A big part of devices problems is how long it takes many powers to get set up. 4 seconds on trip mines, 8 seconds (and then another 15) for time bomb, and 6 seconds on gun drone. That's quite a bit of standing around, which, while I'm sure is tactical, is also boring as hell.
Yet, you can't really make trip mines activate much faster. (From Mids) In comparison to Nova's 305 damage, Trip Mines does 230 without the endurance crash, or massive recharge. If you were able to just throw those all over the place you could easily decimate an entire battlefield with one power. At the same time, the activation time makes the thing really difficult to set up if you don't know what you're doing, or are unable to predict the future. This prompts most people to trying to set up the mines before battle, which few teams enjoy waiting on.
Best method I can think of to address that is split up the activation time. You know how on a Mastermind you summon the pet, and then the pet begins an animation to signify themselves being summoned? You know how you can move around while this is happening? /Devices needs to be like that. The Blaster should only spend a second or so to drop the power on the ground, and then it sets itself up. This would allow the blaster to concentrate on blasting, yet not allow the power to be set up so quickly that you just blow up the entire friggin' area. It would require some work on BaB's part, but I'm fairly certain he enjoys suffering on my behalf~
The other problem with /devices is that many of it's powers aren't really needed. Not that they're useless, just usually superfluous. With IO's, this only becomes more apparent.
Web Grenade: Bad start, I'll admit. All blasters start with an immobilization attack which I've only found useful before level 10 or so. Still, that's even more noticeable on /devices which already offers few worthy power selections, so I'm including it in my little list here.
Targeting Drone: With the plethora of IO's available, I don't really know many situations where this is that useful anymore. You can augment every power with everything now, and usually have more accuracy than you need without needing *more* on top of that. There used to be a fine argument that you could trade slots normally spent on accuracy for endurance reduction or recharge, but this isn't really the case anymore. If not for the Build-Up IO, Targeting Drone likely would have been dropped from my build by now.
To fix it, I would add a 20% damage boost to Targeting Drone. Thematically you could state that the little robot is pointing out the weakest area of the enemy, where you concentrate on, thus doing more damage as well as being more accurate. From a gameplay perspective, this helps /dev compete with the other secondaries that include build-up.
Smoke Grenade and Cloaking Device: You usually skip one of these thanks to the stealth IO you can easily place into Sprint.If you take Super Speed as well, you can safely avoid both of them. A fine enough argument can be made that not everyone wants to pay for the stealth IO, or can afford one at the same level these are available. Still, it feels somewhat cheapened when every other Archetype can do something that was once unique to /Devices with the stealth IO+Superspeed. Additionally, if you're going to build optimally, there's really no reason to take either of these powers when you can do the same thing with a power you get for free, and a power you'd have wanted to take anyway.
Smoke Grenade should really shed all enmity/arggo/threat on you, akin to the power 'Smoke Flash' from Stalker's /nin secondary. Thematically it would make sense, and would open up a lot more tactical options, as well as being a nice 'oh [censored]' power.
Cloaking Device should allow a damage boost when you shoot before the enemy is aware of you. I think a straight up critical might be a bit much, however.
Time Bomb is absolutely horrid. You aren't waiting 8 seconds as advertised, but 23. You can't really do anything until it blows up the spawn you placed it in or they all move out of the time bomb's radius to come attack you. I guess you could just set up more trip mines while you're waiting for this stupid thing to go off, sure, but the thing still takes 360 seconds to use another one anyway, and it barely does more damage than trip mines anyway. You'd be better off with almost *anything* else than this power. Especially considering you already *have* trip mines, which is superior in just about every conceivable way.
I don't even know how to fix it without completely altering the way it works. I did like that idea of making it into a toggle which, when de-activated, causes the thing to explode. I *might* take it then, but as is, it's the only power in the set which you absolutely should never take for any situation at all ever.
Gun Drone: Just takes too long to set up. Probably needs to stay out longer. If it was self-animating, as I described previously, it would greatly improve the use. It really just needs a few numerical nudges everywhere and then I'd be happy with it.
Just in case you needed further convincing, my own AR/Dev blaster only uses Caltrops, Taser, Targeting Drone, and Trip mines, with contemplation on just dropping Targeting Drone altogether. That's 4 powers out of the entire secondary, which isn't exactly good.
I have other powersets I'd like to complain about, but I need a break for the moment.
I'll add a few power sets to the list I all around don't much care for or find underperforming as well.
First and top of the list are Peacebringers. Before the Kheld enthusiasts come out in arms, I want to state that PBs (human and tri) are capable of doing quite a few things, but are often completely overshadowed by Warshades and most other ATs in the game. They suffer a horrid case of the explosive knockbacks and their damage can be replicated, if not completely trounced, by anything not a defender or tanker (and both of those are arguable). A fully purpled out PB can nuke every other spawn or toss out some good nova damage, but they're just all around lack luster to a degree of "meh."
Next on the list comes the Bane Spider. In both the short term and the long term, the one advantage they arguably have over their siblings is surveillance, which is completely overshadowed by the fact that both crabs and widows obliterate their aoe and single target damage respectively, and fortunata outcontrol the snot out of them. They're as fragile as a blapper and do nowhere near the damage (and blasters get surveillance and power boost to boot). While they do possess killing power, it tends to pale in the face of, again, anything else that can do substantial amounts of damage. The only exception is a heavily purpled out bane that will still underperform when compared to a heavily purpled crab that's a monstrous killing machine or a heavily purpled widow that runs around soft cap and tossing out crazy damage anyways.
Shield Defense is the next on the list and this one's a bit iffy. Tanker Shield Defense is actually a pretty decent, if not good, set because their numbers are fairly high and the damage values and shield charge really do give a boost for the low damage AT. Scrappers get some serious love from Against All Odds and Shield Charge makes the mans fall down. Brutes, however, get the worst of both worlds (horrid defense numbers, low AAO) and their shield charge is capped at tanker values. This means that not only is the set difficult to cap when compared to SR, Shield Charge doesn't actually mature past 300% as far as I remember. Add on the crippling end usage for a brute which already suffers from endurance dysfunction and you have a much worse copy of Super Reflexes and even Energy Aura (which now has a good energy absorption and a much, much, much better tier 9) and it's arguably the worst brute secondary around. Sure you can purple it out, but expect to spend ridiculous amounts compared to anything short of EA.
Pain Domination is another doozy that's just all around a disappointing version of Empathy. There is very little to the set I feel that actually contributes fully to a group and can't be replicated elsewhere. Gone are three of empathy's most useful tools (the Auras and Fortitude) replaced with an aura that replicates Thermal Shields except PBAoE. Gone is Adrenalin Boost instead replaced by a more tame Painbringer that trades the 100 recharge (why?!) with damage. Anguishing Cry gets notable mention for being a near direct copy of Melt Armor except PBAoE and lasts less time. So Pain is a mix of Thermal and Empathy without much of the sets awesome abilities (Forge, Fortitude, the Auras, Heat Exhaustion) that will be easily outperformed by both in any and all situations. The one exception to this statement is the awesome that is Suppress Pain on a Mastermind, which is a suitable replacement to Regeneration Aura. Corruptors get left out in the cold, of course.
Next up on the list is Dark Blast. Having absolutely no tier 3 blast, the set is very plainly cone/aoetastic. What's worse is that most of those cones tend to be overshadowed by anything that has actual aoe damage, leading to a situation where Dark Blast possess one or two useful cones, a self heal, and gloom/dark blast. Toss in a really bad looking tier nine (I just can't get over how terrible it looks, it's like a thunderous fart) and you come out with a vanilla set that does terrible damage and is only worthwhile in the hands of a defender. Yes, obliterating the tohit of a spawn is good and useful, but you may as well have two secondaries. Also, kiss your personal damage goodbye.
This one's going to be confusing, but I also feel Broadsword is a giant underperforming pile of garbage compared to every other weapon set (excluding claws). Yes, it does a large amount of damage, but this is completely overshadowed by the fact that battle axe does more numerically and has more aoe to boot. What's worse is that with IOs and slotting, or even without, Katana puts Broadsword to shame in the damage, end efficiency, and all around use categories. Parry, its only saving grace, is replicated in Divine Avalanche which just further rubs Broadsword's nose in the dirt. There's better sets for doing damage (especially ludicrously high amounts of damage) and better sets for survivability that don't make you suck down end like it's going out of style. Meh.
Honorable mention goes out to Super Strength, as was mentioned earlier, and Stone Armor. Both of these sets suffer from a horribly crippling crutch (Rage and Granite) that, if taken away or balanced will leave each set a floundering and bad shadow of virtually everything else in existence. Kinetics gets a pass because while Speed Boost and Fulcrum Shift are indeed pieces of awesome, Transference, Transfusion, Siphon Speed, and Increase Density are all lovable and huggable pieces of awesome too.
I'll say only two...
Electric Armor
Gravity Control
Electric Armor is cool, great and fun, no worries from Sappers! However, any mob/mob group that does Smashing and/or Lethal damage...and well...you're going to want Aid Self...from my experience at least (my Elec/Elec Brute is lvl 50). I'm not sure what I'd like to drop from the powerset...maybe Conserve Power (although I have it on my brute just cause)...a heal that's in the set would be nice.
Gravity Control just because it seems 'meh' to me. I 'love' Propel and the animation for it but...it doesn't seem that great in either controlling or damage from my experience. Granted I haven't touched it in ages and it might be better now with Wormhole is actually used but...*shrugs*
The other powersets that I say are "underperforming" is pretty much anything that does primarily Smashing/Lethal damage (ie. Dual Blades, Broadsword, Katana, etc...).
I say that even though I know all sets are good/great in their own ways but I made a Fire/Fire Scrapper and really enjoyed playing him because fire isn't resisted like Lethal dmg is; when I went to play my BS/Shield Scrapper it was painful at times... If there was some way that we could have temp powers or IOs or something that allowed lethal/smashing dmg powersets to do different types of damage (whether in a given amount of time or in only one power/something) than I'd like them more. Others have suggested it before but if there was a temp power that lasted maybe 5 minutes but it allowed all attacks to do a portion/some fire damage...or energy or whatever (could have multiple temp powers, one for each damage type); heck even have one that adds even more lethal or smashing damage... I have a dual blade brute that I didn't care for at all (he's 50 now 
)...he just seemed to not be doing a lot of damage when on teams and by the time my fury bar got up and I was doing good damage, the mobs were dead. Then again, Longbow is resistant to lethal and with villains usually fighting Longbow...that doesn't help 
Anyways.....
Edit: Oh and looking at the person who posted above me reminded me of another set I dislike.
Dark Blast...ugh....pathetic damage and the self-heal isn't worth it (to me at least). Oh and then you have Dark Pit...weak...man I remember taking that power a LONG time ago (when I first started to play the game) and was playing on my Storm/Dark Defender. I got Dark Pit because, "hey it's a targetted AoE disorient!" My friend/teammate and I go to Perez Park (ah those were the days!) and get a few more people to join us and we just start killing mobs and I use Dark Pit and notice...wow...it hit maybe 2 out of the 10 mobs that I threw it at....oh and look the mobs have already 'snapped out of it' before Dark Pit recharged...Granted I didn't have any TOs/DOs in it but I hated that power ever since...it never seemed to get more than 4 mobs and didn't last more than like 5 seconds it seemed.
Leader of The LEGION/Fallen LEGION on the Liberty server!
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Extremely late reply to this, but this is where you contradict yourself. You first claimed that SR without IOs "underperforms", but then in this post you seem to admit that the set is "decent" with just SOs. So which is it?
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I had this huge post written up but if I keep arguing this, I'm just going to be recycling all the posts I've already made in this thread. I'm just saying the same thing every time someone replies to my posts. I'm not sure what part of the communication is breaking down, but at some point I'm not getting my point across.
Recap: All I'm complaining about is low-level SR that doesn't have IOs. If you're low level and have IOs, that can ease the pain. Low level SR without IOs is the least durable set there is. All sets have problems at low levels, but SR is the worst. Even Shield has +HP and +RES to fall back on. Other sets have +regen or heals. SR has nothing other than defense, which almost all low-level enemies debuff, and at low levels you have no DDR or scaling resist. SR is a late-bloomer, and that's why it has problems at low levels only, unless you patch it up with IOs.
High level SR + IOs = extreme
High level SR = decent
Low level SR + IOs = decent
Low level SR = terrible
It's just like Dominators were. If you can suffer through the first 35 levels or so, you get rewarded. But for some people, those early levels aren't any fun and not worth the effort.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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QR
Electrical Blast - Make End Drain work for non */Ele and */Energy
Psi Blast (Blaster)
Gravity Control
Sonic Res (Needs some tweaks to make it more attractive)
Katana (Under performing compared to every other Scrap set)
Fiery Aura (Tank/Brute, Scrapper version is fine, see huge Fiery Aura thread in Tanker forum)
Electric Armor (CP is worthless when you hit 35-36, if you're having ANY endurance issues on Electric Armor then you're doing it wrong)
Energy Aura (Dunno, it's still...weird...)
Energy Melee (So...so slow...and pathetic on teams)
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I'll add a few power sets to the list I all around don't much care for or find underperforming as well.
First and top of the list are Peacebringers. Before the Kheld enthusiasts come out in arms, I want to state that PBs (human and tri) are capable of doing quite a few things, but are often completely overshadowed by Warshades and most other ATs in the game. They suffer a horrid case of the explosive knockbacks and their damage can be replicated, if not completely trounced, by anything not a defender or tanker (and both of those are arguable). A fully purpled out PB can nuke every other spawn or toss out some good nova damage, but they're just all around lack luster to a degree of "meh."
Next on the list comes the Bane Spider. In both the short term and the long term, the one advantage they arguably have over their siblings is surveillance, which is completely overshadowed by the fact that both crabs and widows obliterate their aoe and single target damage respectively, and fortunata outcontrol the snot out of them. They're as fragile as a blapper and do nowhere near the damage (and blasters get surveillance and power boost to boot). While they do possess killing power, it tends to pale in the face of, again, anything else that can do substantial amounts of damage. The only exception is a heavily purpled out bane that will still underperform when compared to a heavily purpled crab that's a monstrous killing machine or a heavily purpled widow that runs around soft cap and tossing out crazy damage anyways.
Shield Defense is the next on the list and this one's a bit iffy. Tanker Shield Defense is actually a pretty decent, if not good, set because their numbers are fairly high and the damage values and shield charge really do give a boost for the low damage AT. Scrappers get some serious love from Against All Odds and Shield Charge makes the mans fall down. Brutes, however, get the worst of both worlds (horrid defense numbers, low AAO) and their shield charge is capped at tanker values. This means that not only is the set difficult to cap when compared to SR, Shield Charge doesn't actually mature past 300% as far as I remember. Add on the crippling end usage for a brute which already suffers from endurance dysfunction and you have a much worse copy of Super Reflexes and even Energy Aura (which now has a good energy absorption and a much, much, much better tier 9) and it's arguably the worst brute secondary around. Sure you can purple it out, but expect to spend ridiculous amounts compared to anything short of EA.
Pain Domination is another doozy that's just all around a disappointing version of Empathy. There is very little to the set I feel that actually contributes fully to a group and can't be replicated elsewhere. Gone are three of empathy's most useful tools (the Auras and Fortitude) replaced with an aura that replicates Thermal Shields except PBAoE. Gone is Adrenalin Boost instead replaced by a more tame Painbringer that trades the 100 recharge (why?!) with damage. Anguishing Cry gets notable mention for being a near direct copy of Melt Armor except PBAoE and lasts less time. So Pain is a mix of Thermal and Empathy without much of the sets awesome abilities (Forge, Fortitude, the Auras, Heat Exhaustion) that will be easily outperformed by both in any and all situations. The one exception to this statement is the awesome that is Suppress Pain on a Mastermind, which is a suitable replacement to Regeneration Aura. Corruptors get left out in the cold, of course.
Next up on the list is Dark Blast. Having absolutely no tier 3 blast, the set is very plainly cone/aoetastic. What's worse is that most of those cones tend to be overshadowed by anything that has actual aoe damage, leading to a situation where Dark Blast possess one or two useful cones, a self heal, and gloom/dark blast. Toss in a really bad looking tier nine (I just can't get over how terrible it looks, it's like a thunderous fart) and you come out with a vanilla set that does terrible damage and is only worthwhile in the hands of a defender. Yes, obliterating the tohit of a spawn is good and useful, but you may as well have two secondaries. Also, kiss your personal damage goodbye.
This one's going to be confusing, but I also feel Broadsword is a giant underperforming pile of garbage compared to every other weapon set (excluding claws). Yes, it does a large amount of damage, but this is completely overshadowed by the fact that battle axe does more numerically and has more aoe to boot. What's worse is that with IOs and slotting, or even without, Katana puts Broadsword to shame in the damage, end efficiency, and all around use categories. Parry, its only saving grace, is replicated in Divine Avalanche which just further rubs Broadsword's nose in the dirt. There's better sets for doing damage (especially ludicrously high amounts of damage) and better sets for survivability that don't make you suck down end like it's going out of style. Meh.
Honorable mention goes out to Super Strength, as was mentioned earlier, and Stone Armor. Both of these sets suffer from a horribly crippling crutch (Rage and Granite) that, if taken away or balanced will leave each set a floundering and bad shadow of virtually everything else in existence. Kinetics gets a pass because while Speed Boost and Fulcrum Shift are indeed pieces of awesome, Transference, Transfusion, Siphon Speed, and Increase Density are all lovable and huggable pieces of awesome too.
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From reading all this, i come to the conclusion that you only do not like the "flavor" of these powersets. Because other than that i find nothing wrong with all the powersets you talked above. They are all working powersets and not underperforming. They may not be the best powersets for any given situations but they also all have their quirks and their advantages.
Broadsword underperforming? Come on... Who here will seriously claim that broadsword is not getting the job done? You prefer katana? Well good for you but you can't use katana with a shield like i do. And when Headsplitter does a critical hit, it hits harder than Golden Dragonfly critical. Both are great powersets btw. But theyre slightly different and that is why i like them both.
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
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Super Strength
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Underperforming Powersets.
Super Strength.
Does not compute.
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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Dark Blast...ugh....pathetic damage and the self-heal isn't worth it (to me at least). Oh and then you have Dark Pit...weak...man I remember taking that power a LONG time ago (when I first started to play the game) and was playing on my Storm/Dark Defender. I got Dark Pit because, "hey it's a targetted AoE disorient!" My friend/teammate and I go to Perez Park (ah those were the days!) and get a few more people to join us and we just start killing mobs and I use Dark Pit and notice...wow...it hit maybe 2 out of the 10 mobs that I threw it at....oh and look the mobs have already 'snapped out of it' before Dark Pit recharged...Granted I didn't have any TOs/DOs in it but I hated that power ever since...it never seemed to get more than 4 mobs and didn't last more than like 5 seconds it seemed.
[/ QUOTE ]An AoE slotted with no accuracy, and not modified for Stun at all doesn't perform well...and that surprises you?
Melee attack:
Energy Melee. No longer the best single target set. Quite endurance inefficient for what's left of it. The stun is of little use: it no longer can stun a boss with a single blow. Because stunned mobs don't stand still, it does not help, and specifically harms some melee defense primaries (Fire and Willpower, especially).
Melee defense:
Depends on what your AT is. For scrappers and brutes, Invulnerability. The base figures just aren't high enough, and the toggles wear you down too fast. Still a good set for tankers, but can't hold a candle to Willpower if your primary job isn't to hold aggro and you start from lower base numbers.
(Super Reflexes is a pain to get started, but once it's fully made it is quite solid.)
Ranged damage:
Psi seems to have a bad reputation
Buff/debuff
This is heresy, but: Kinetics. Increased Density, the most useful power, is not taken by half of 'em. Speed kills.
Control:
Gravity? Dunno. It doesn't seem to have a good reputation among people I play with regularly.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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Extremely late reply to this, but this is where you contradict yourself. You first claimed that SR without IOs "underperforms", but then in this post you seem to admit that the set is "decent" with just SOs. So which is it?
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I had this huge post written up but if I keep arguing this, I'm just going to be recycling all the posts I've already made in this thread. I'm just saying the same thing every time someone replies to my posts. I'm not sure what part of the communication is breaking down, but at some point I'm not getting my point across.
Recap: All I'm complaining about is low-level SR that doesn't have IOs. If you're low level and have IOs, that can ease the pain. Low level SR without IOs is the least durable set there is. All sets have problems at low levels, but SR is the worst. Even Shield has +HP and +RES to fall back on. Other sets have +regen or heals. SR has nothing other than defense, which almost all low-level enemies debuff, and at low levels you have no DDR or scaling resist. SR is a late-bloomer, and that's why it has problems at low levels only, unless you patch it up with IOs.
High level SR + IOs = extreme
High level SR = decent
Low level SR + IOs = decent
Low level SR = terrible
It's just like Dominators were. If you can suffer through the first 35 levels or so, you get rewarded. But for some people, those early levels aren't any fun and not worth the effort.
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Nope, you just don't know how to play your SR. ALL scrappers have weak defense in the low levels.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Nope, you just don't know how to play your SR. ALL scrappers have weak defense in the low levels.
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If you say so.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Only going to adress the ones I have experience with~
I'm going to have to just disagree entirely about Brute's /Shield secondary. The fury they make puts them on pretty equal footing with scrapper damage, and they can achieve tanker level mitigation and have tanker level HP. If anything, they are the *best* of both worlds, for anything you do ever. Brutes don't have any smaller an endurance bar than any other archetype either. A well built /SD brute can demolish nearly anything with extreme zeal.
Also, I've only ever played Dark Blast on a defender, but I felt the main focus on this set was that it was more mitigation oriented. You trade a bit of damage for that. Granted, my Dark Blast was paired with /kin, so what do I know about vanilla damage?
Broadsword, the way it was explained to me, does better damage the first 5-10 seconds of a new enemy. After that time has elapsed, Katana will take the lead in damage. That's the basic difference between 'burst' and 'damage over time.' Whether or not you prefer one type of damage to another is totally your opinion, but broadsword doesn't perform worse, just differently.
Broadsword and Battle Axe have the same number of AOE's. Yes, Headsplitter is an AOE as well, and once you start using it as such, becomes very devestating. Battle Axe's AOE's do hit more enemies however. Battle Axe is also regulated to Brutes and Tankers, which have a lower multiplier for damage, meaning Broadsword is doing more damage as of right now until you start factoring in Rage. Even then, burst sets like battle axe are very difficult to take advantage of on a brute, who gains more fury by attacking quickly. I don't know how to math Battle Axe into a scrapper form, but as it is right now, Broadsword does better damage overall.
It also seems odd to mention sets that are performing well unless you take away a power. I mean, I could take RttC out of willpower and say willpower is underpowered like that, but it'd be kind of silly to do so since it isn't how the game is actually working.
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Extremely late reply to this, but this is where you contradict yourself. You first claimed that SR without IOs "underperforms", but then in this post you seem to admit that the set is "decent" with just SOs. So which is it?
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I had this huge post written up but if I keep arguing this, I'm just going to be recycling all the posts I've already made in this thread. I'm just saying the same thing every time someone replies to my posts. I'm not sure what part of the communication is breaking down, but at some point I'm not getting my point across.
Recap: All I'm complaining about is low-level SR that doesn't have IOs. If you're low level and have IOs, that can ease the pain. Low level SR without IOs is the least durable set there is. All sets have problems at low levels, but SR is the worst. Even Shield has +HP and +RES to fall back on. Other sets have +regen or heals. SR has nothing other than defense, which almost all low-level enemies debuff, and at low levels you have no DDR or scaling resist. SR is a late-bloomer, and that's why it has problems at low levels only, unless you patch it up with IOs.
High level SR + IOs = extreme
High level SR = decent
Low level SR + IOs = decent
Low level SR = terrible
It's just like Dominators were. If you can suffer through the first 35 levels or so, you get rewarded. But for some people, those early levels aren't any fun and not worth the effort.
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Nope, you just don't know how to play your SR. ALL scrappers have weak defense in the low levels.
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I'm going to entirely disagree with this comment with the same amount of factual evidence as you provided.
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Nope, you just don't know how to play your SR. ALL scrappers have weak defense in the low levels.
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I'm going to entirely disagree with this comment with the same amount of factual evidence as you provided.
[/ QUOTE ]Ummm, all scrappers do have weaker defenses pre-22. There's a leap around 10-16 when they get the mez protection, and then at 22 when they (finally) get SOs. The only scrappers that aren't as weak pre-22 are BS and Katana primaries due to the godliness that is Parry/Divine Avalanche, /Regen, which gets Integration and DP, its main tools, pre-22, which, like most self-heals, are viable without slotting for the first few levels.
Dark Armor is staggering under a massive end deficit pre-SOs. Fiery is leaning entirely on HF there, and because of how their mez protection is split up, can't even pick and choose armors. Willpower doesn't get QR until 20, and its main tool for survival being a taunt aura can easily hurt more than it helps pre-SOs, when the other defenses, and itself, are operating below SO efficiency. Invuln's big tool isn't until 28, and it doesn't have SOs for Resists. SR is lacking AoE defense, and is only on DOs. Shields blooms earlier in terms of pure defense, but it still has issues with its other mitigation and Defense DOs only being +10%.
There's some actual facts. Scrappers (as well as Brutes, Tankers, and Stalkers) have issues pre-22.
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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Gimmickperforming is sort of par for the course with most Melee sets. I hear people [censored] me out for saying Super Strength has terrible AoE. The reasoning is always "footstomp is the best power evar1191" which makes me sad because that's the only freaking reason. But really, melee sets are all the freaking same thing except for like one or two shining glorious powers- Crowd Control, Parry, Divine Avalanche, Siphon Life, Rage, Footstomp, ET and Total Focus.. Apart from their little powers of epic beefiness, most melee sets go "Hit, Hit Harder, Hit More Harderer, Also Hit, Mez..." Dual Blades and Electrical Melee (and I guess Spines is weird enough) are at least *slightly* different overall, which is good and they're solid sets. But then we look at a Melee set without an I-rock-button to its name- Martial Arts, and we go "oh [censored] this is what most of the other melee sets would look like without their key powers, how [censored] is that!
Yeah, for melee, the one big gimmick is generally what sets the sets apart on the set. Set that in your mind or you'll feel the fury of Set as soon as the setting sun goes down.
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I have to call you out on saying dark melee is gimmicky. I'm not really sure where that opinion comes from. It has one of the most well-rounded and diverse collections of powers in any melee set out there.
The first 2 powers make a great buzzsaw attack chain with very respectable DPS.
The damage type is rarely resisted.
Siphon life is not only a great attack, but it heals you when you use it.
Dark Consumption let's you get end. back faster.
Soul drain is a ridiculously good replacement for build-up.
Midnight Grasp is better than ever.
Sure, everyone who plays dark melee should take siphon life, but you can say that about half the set. That's hardly a gimmick.
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Nope, you just don't know how to play your SR. ALL scrappers have weak defense in the low levels.
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If you say so.
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Gotta agree here Dispari. In the lowlevels ( 1-22 ), all scrappers ( exception for those who use DA and Parry ) are not much tough. They are poorly slotted, resists are low, heals recharge slowly and defenses are low as well.
A level 10 SR is not doing really worst than a Regen scrapper. Besides, a SR get lot more mileage when he eats a little purple which only cost 50 inf and drop commonly. It helps surviving the very tough fights.
Not saying you dont know how to play but i think you are overexagerating the other scrappers secondary performance in lowlevels. Invul is a pain even for tankers before they slots and SOs. WP is solid but not so much ahead than the others. DA has same problems as Invul. Weak until it is slotted.
Thats all opinions, of course.
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
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Nope, you just don't know how to play your SR. ALL scrappers have weak defense in the low levels.
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I'm going to entirely disagree with this comment with the same amount of factual evidence as you provided.
[/ QUOTE ]Ummm, all scrappers do have weaker defenses pre-22. There's a leap around 10-16 when they get the mez protection, and then at 22 when they (finally) get SOs. The only scrappers that aren't as weak pre-22 are BS and Katana primaries due to the godliness that is Parry/Divine Avalanche, /Regen, which gets Integration and DP, its main tools, pre-22, which, like most self-heals, are viable without slotting for the first few levels.
Dark Armor is staggering under a massive end deficit pre-SOs. Fiery is leaning entirely on HF there, and because of how their mez protection is split up, can't even pick and choose armors. Willpower doesn't get QR until 20, and its main tool for survival being a taunt aura can easily hurt more than it helps pre-SOs, when the other defenses, and itself, are operating below SO efficiency. Invuln's big tool isn't until 28, and it doesn't have SOs for Resists. SR is lacking AoE defense, and is only on DOs. Shields blooms earlier in terms of pure defense, but it still has issues with its other mitigation and Defense DOs only being +10%.
There's some actual facts. Scrappers (as well as Brutes, Tankers, and Stalkers) have issues pre-22.
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My comment was mostly in irritation that Dispari went through the trouble of detailing a well constructed argument and the reply it gets basically amounts to "Well, you're wrong. So there." That's so incredibly annoying when you're trying to have a debate about something.
Anyway, I generally feel defense in general suffers more at lower levels than anything else by the nature that it either works or it doesn't, and you need a lot of it to work well. Regen and Resistance does not. Even if it's only 12% resistance before you can get DO's and SO's, at least it's doing something, even if small. 12% defense, on the other hand, might as well not even be there when it's all you have to rely on.
Even as the powersets grow and start getting their notable powers, click heals, etc., /sr is still stacking on defenses it's whole life until it finally has them all, at which point you take a dramatic turn and become *very* good.
granted, this whole argument is very much opinion based, so your mileage may very.
Dispari gave an argument and then followed it with "and SR just sucks at the low levels and I die all the time".
To which I responded that she doesn't know how to play.
Because: If you're dying all the time then you are doing something wrong.
That something wrong could be fighting guys that are too tough at that level, it could be failing to pull when there are multiple spawns, it could be skipping key powers, it could be anything. However, it comes back to it very clearly: if you are dying all the time you are doing something Wrong. There is NO set in the game that is so bad you will die all the time even while doing everything right.
My answer was NOT equal to "well you're wrong, so there" it was "if, as you say, you die all the time, then you are doing something wrong". Quite distinct.
You're being the PvE equivalent of a Care Bear: "if I'm having difficulty it MUST be the fault of the SET and not my own behavior."
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Nope, you just don't know how to play your SR. ALL scrappers have weak defense in the low levels.
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I'm going to entirely disagree with this comment with the same amount of factual evidence as you provided.
[/ QUOTE ]Ummm, all scrappers do have weaker defenses pre-22. There's a leap around 10-16 when they get the mez protection, and then at 22 when they (finally) get SOs. The only scrappers that aren't as weak pre-22 are BS and Katana primaries due to the godliness that is Parry/Divine Avalanche, /Regen, which gets Integration and DP, its main tools, pre-22, which, like most self-heals, are viable without slotting for the first few levels.
Dark Armor is staggering under a massive end deficit pre-SOs. Fiery is leaning entirely on HF there, and because of how their mez protection is split up, can't even pick and choose armors. Willpower doesn't get QR until 20, and its main tool for survival being a taunt aura can easily hurt more than it helps pre-SOs, when the other defenses, and itself, are operating below SO efficiency. Invuln's big tool isn't until 28, and it doesn't have SOs for Resists. SR is lacking AoE defense, and is only on DOs. Shields blooms earlier in terms of pure defense, but it still has issues with its other mitigation and Defense DOs only being +10%.
There's some actual facts. Scrappers (as well as Brutes, Tankers, and Stalkers) have issues pre-22.
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My comment was mostly in irritation that Dispari went through the trouble of detailing a well constructed argument and the reply it gets basically amounts to "Well, you're wrong. So there." That's so incredibly annoying when you're trying to have a debate about something.
Anyway, I generally feel defense in general suffers more at lower levels than anything else by the nature that it either works or it doesn't, and you need a lot of it to work well. Regen and Resistance does not. Even if it's only 12% resistance before you can get DO's and SO's, at least it's doing something, even if small. 12% defense, on the other hand, might as well not even be there when it's all you have to rely on.
Even as the powersets grow and start getting their notable powers, click heals, etc., /sr is still stacking on defenses it's whole life until it finally has them all, at which point you take a dramatic turn and become *very* good.
granted, this whole argument is very much opinion based, so your mileage may very.
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Defense IS less Dependable at the low levels. That is ENTIRELY by design. If you don't LIKE the design of Defense = Safety, Resistance = Dependability, then maybe you should play Res sets instead?
However, your argument that 12% defense might as well not be there? That is hyperbole and is NOT an opinion, it is simply factually incorrect. 12% Defense takes you from getting hit by half of attacks to getting hit by a third of attacks. That is not insignificant, but is not yet dependable on the scale of SO slotted powers. That is the design.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Defense IS less Dependable at the low levels. That is ENTIRELY by design. If you don't LIKE the design of Defense = Safety, Resistance = Dependability, then maybe you should play Res sets instead?
However, your argument that 12% defense might as well not be there? That is hyperbole and is NOT an opinion, it is simply factually incorrect. 12% Defense takes you from getting hit by half of attacks to getting hit by a third of attacks. That is not insignificant, but is not yet dependable on the scale of SO slotted powers. That is the design.
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"That is not insignificant" <--- This is the opinion part of your argument. My opinion is that it is insignificant. We're both basing this opinion off the same math, which was the fact part.
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Only going to adress the ones I have experience with~
I'm going to have to just disagree entirely about Brute's /Shield secondary. The fury they make puts them on pretty equal footing with scrapper damage, and they can achieve tanker level mitigation and have tanker level HP. If anything, they are the *best* of both worlds, for anything you do ever. Brutes don't have any smaller an endurance bar than any other archetype either. A well built /SD brute can demolish nearly anything with extreme zeal.
Also, I've only ever played Dark Blast on a defender, but I felt the main focus on this set was that it was more mitigation oriented. You trade a bit of damage for that. Granted, my Dark Blast was paired with /kin, so what do I know about vanilla damage?
Broadsword, the way it was explained to me, does better damage the first 5-10 seconds of a new enemy. After that time has elapsed, Katana will take the lead in damage. That's the basic difference between 'burst' and 'damage over time.' Whether or not you prefer one type of damage to another is totally your opinion, but broadsword doesn't perform worse, just differently.
Broadsword and Battle Axe have the same number of AOE's. Yes, Headsplitter is an AOE as well, and once you start using it as such, becomes very devestating. Battle Axe's AOE's do hit more enemies however. Battle Axe is also regulated to Brutes and Tankers, which have a lower multiplier for damage, meaning Broadsword is doing more damage as of right now until you start factoring in Rage. Even then, burst sets like battle axe are very difficult to take advantage of on a brute, who gains more fury by attacking quickly. I don't know how to math Battle Axe into a scrapper form, but as it is right now, Broadsword does better damage overall.
It also seems odd to mention sets that are performing well unless you take away a power. I mean, I could take RttC out of willpower and say willpower is underpowered like that, but it'd be kind of silly to do so since it isn't how the game is actually working.
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I will point out that without severe IOing, brute shield defense is nowhere near as effective as tanker, simply because they have scrapper numbers for all their powers. It takes several million (if not a billion or more) plus heavy sacrifices in terms of powers/sets to defense cap a brute shield defense, This and the fact that AAO gives a smaller return to brutes (10 vs 12.5 on a scrapper) and that Shield Charge is capped at 300% damage (something that all three will reach with ease, but wastes 500% more damage from a brute) makes the strength of SD much more questionable in the hands of a brute.
Now, I do understand that using Battle Axe and Broadsword in comparison seems hard to do because they're split across ATs, but realize that all of the base weapon sets (Katana, War Mace, Broadsword, and Battle Axe) are balanced across near identical powers. Using Scrapper or Brute numbers on virtually every power makes Battle Axe win out on equivalent abilities for raw damage save for Whirling Sword/Axe and Head Splitter/Cleave (and Cleave comes close). Swoop, a level 8 ability, sends Disembowel home crying. For some reason, Swoop is also qualified as an aoe according to real numbers to boot (...I'm confused at this). If I wanted burst I'll go pick up fire melee for ridiculous damage. Yes, parry is a deal maker in BS, but I question the overall usefulness of a set when fighting anything that you can't two shot (which is most high end content). Note that I'm looking at base numbers for all this in real numbers (use the [Power Name] and click on the names), so I'm not taking fury and crits into account either.
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From reading all this, i come to the conclusion that you only do not like the "flavor" of these powersets. Because other than that i find nothing wrong with all the powersets you talked above. They are all working powersets and not underperforming. They may not be the best powersets for any given situations but they also all have their quirks and their advantages.
Broadsword underperforming? Come on... Who here will seriously claim that broadsword is not getting the job done? You prefer katana? Well good for you but you can't use katana with a shield like i do. And when Headsplitter does a critical hit, it hits harder than Golden Dragonfly critical. Both are great powersets btw. But theyre slightly different and that is why i like them both.
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I adore the flavor of the Peacebringer and the Bane, but the sets themselves are on the low end of the totem pole. Same with things like dark blast and shield defense on corruptors and brutes specifically. Their advantages are few and far between when compared to all equivalent choices which tends to be the definition of underperforming.
Dark Blast, for example, is overshadowed completely by the fact that Radiation Emission, Dark Miasma, and Force Field can either tohit debuff an enemy to the cap or defense buff a team to the gills before even taking into account Dark Blast. Sure you can use them against AVs, but dark blast gets utterly destroyed debuff wise as well. Storm can tohit debuff cap too if you just walk in with a hurricane on. The damage is easily on the low end of the totem pole for defenders, but as has been said, you don't take it for its damage but for its mitigation. This is only made worse on corruptors who have lower debuff numbers by comparison, but can arguably do very good damage with scourge. Even still in terms of mitigation, ice offers plenty in terms of holds and slows, psi, rad, sonic AR and archery all offer forms of reliable control, and all of the aforementioned novas either have extremely good control or do incredible damage in comparison. The only leg Dark Blast has over any blast sets is arguably electric blast and energy blast, putting it near the bottom if not equivalent. I've never once argued that dark blast excels as a mitigation set, but unless you're constantly taking alphas to apply debuffs and tossing out three or four aoes (which you need to stack the debuffs), the mitigation won't be there.
I never once called any of the powersets unplayable, I called them underperforming. Pain will be outhealed and outdone by both thermal and empathy, banes/peacebringers will be outdamaged/out controlled/out hybrided by most ATs, and Shield Defense doesn't bring anywhere the same amount of utility as fiery aura/energy aura/super reflexes for a brute and arguably less survivability between all three, two of which get a heal and one of which becomes near godlike at high levels.
And what power sets did I take something away from? That line kinda confused me.
Edit: I just realized what was meant. Super Strength and Stone Armor as a whole underperform because they NEED one power to be useful. While most sets can operate fully without some keystone powers, albeit somewhat worse off (like kins without SB, Miasma without DN, SR without passives, etc) SS and SA are practically unplayable if not downright pathetic without Rage and Granite. WP with Tough and Weave can still achieve very high levels of Smash/Lethal, I believe, letting them still live for a long time (before even considering their naturally high HP), same with Invuln lacking Invincibility.
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Defense IS less Dependable at the low levels. That is ENTIRELY by design. If you don't LIKE the design of Defense = Safety, Resistance = Dependability, then maybe you should play Res sets instead?
However, your argument that 12% defense might as well not be there? That is hyperbole and is NOT an opinion, it is simply factually incorrect. 12% Defense takes you from getting hit by half of attacks to getting hit by a third of attacks. That is not insignificant, but is not yet dependable on the scale of SO slotted powers. That is the design.
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"That is not insignificant" <--- This is the opinion part of your argument. My opinion is that it is insignificant. We're both basing this opinion off the same math, which was the fact part.
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No. YOU said "it may as well not be there". I am saying THAT is factually incorrect. Whether it is significant or not IS a matter of opinion, but saying "it may as well not be there" suggests that 12% does Nothing for you, which is demonstrably false.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
I've seen people claim SR is weak, and I've looked at their builds, and I see things like Dodge being taken at level 41 and many other horrendous mistakes. SR is not underperforming nor is it weak nor does it "need" IOs to be good nor does it need the Medicine Pool.
Brute SR is not worse than Scrapper SR. Brute SR is even better than Scrapper SR.
SR is simply misunderstood by many people, maybe even most. With basic, SOed SR you can and will survive teamwipes on a regular basis. You can take down Archvillains if you choose. The set is just that good. But you have to not skip its powers and you do have to be patient with it in the sub-20 game (you'll be paid dividends for this later by having one of the strongest late-games you can get on a melee, if not the strongest. Carnies, Malta, the groups that make others cry? SR eats 'em up. Mask of Vitiation and Sappers? They don't hurt what they don't hit. Fun fact: Mask of Vitiation has a Ranged component.)
I really need to finish my SR guide.
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