Most Underperforming Powersets.
By
Aces_High,
Posted on: 2009-07-09 21:48 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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... like changing auto turret to a mobile pet?
[/ QUOTE ]You mean like they did 2 or 3 issues ago?
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... like changing auto turret to a mobile pet?
[/ QUOTE ]You mean like they did 2 or 3 issues ago?
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Yes.
The #1 candidates other than gravity are the various elec sets.
Those could be done in one swoop by fixing the binary nature of endurance drains. Like adding an attack debuff.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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... like changing auto turret to a mobile pet?
[/ QUOTE ]You mean like they did 2 or 3 issues ago?
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Yes.
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That didn't break the cottage rule because the basic function of the power didn't change. It's still a summonable pet that does ranged damage, it just follows you now.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Everyone's entitled to their (wrong) opinion.
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It's impossible for an opinion to be wrong. That's why they're opinions and not facts.
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However it is very possible for people to miss sarcasm when they see it.
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Yeah right, that's impossible.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Everyone's entitled to their (wrong) opinion.
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It's impossible for an opinion to be wrong. That's why they're opinions and not facts.
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However it is very possible for people to miss sarcasm when they see it.
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Yeah right, that's impossible.
[/ QUOTE ]Inconceivable!
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
if and when it comes to buffing/fixing crappy powers as long as it remains a POWER I'm satisfied it meets the cottage rule 
Quick observation re: Super Reflexes
There's a lot of disagreement in the thread over SR. Perhaps it's because two of the archetypes who get SR can pair it with Parry/Divine Avalanche but one can't? Would it be better to qualify Super Reflexes as underperforming for brutes only?
I don't think it's underperforming for anyone, some people just don't like playing straight Defense sets. It's not Supposed to be for everyone. All three ATs that get SR can get Dark Melee. All 3 can IO for soft capped Def. All 3 get Elude. You don't need Parry to get good results out of SR.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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I don't think it's underperforming for anyone, some people just don't like playing straight Defense sets. It's not Supposed to be for everyone. All three ATs that get SR can get Dark Melee. All 3 can IO for soft capped Def. All 3 get Elude. You don't need Parry to get good results out of SR.
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It's not that it underperforms on any specific AT. It's that it underperforms:
1) Without IOs
2) At lower levels
Playing a low level SR was one of the most frustrating things I've ever done. It was basically like playing a Brute with no secondary, but still using up endurance anyway. Every enemy was still capable of reducing me to negative defense, and I had no RES, regen, or HP to fall back on. I just simply died to everything. Eventually, somewhere around 35+, SR starts to do better, and can eventually soft-cap fairly easily with IOs, However, the ride and the non-IO path isn't very fun.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I don't think it's underperforming for anyone, some people just don't like playing straight Defense sets. It's not Supposed to be for everyone. All three ATs that get SR can get Dark Melee. All 3 can IO for soft capped Def. All 3 get Elude. You don't need Parry to get good results out of SR.
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It's not that it underperforms on any specific AT. It's that it underperforms:
1) Without IOs
2) At lower levels
Playing a low level SR was one of the most frustrating things I've ever done. It was basically like playing a Brute with no secondary, but still using up endurance anyway. Every enemy was still capable of reducing me to negative defense, and I had no RES, regen, or HP to fall back on. I just simply died to everything. Eventually, somewhere around 35+, SR starts to do better, and can eventually soft-cap fairly easily with IOs, However, the ride and the non-IO path isn't very fun.
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I agree with your "number 2", but "number 1" I disagree with. I have an MA/SR who doesn't have anything beyond basic IOs slotted in his powers and he doesn't underperform. 33ish% Defense isn't exactly bad defenses. There's too much emphasis on minimizing your chances to be hit that any numbers that don't reach that point are seen as underperforming.
Of course, that's not to say I'm not going to eventually soft-cap him, because I plan to, but he doesn't underperform at all.
Main Hero : Annilixxion -- Lv50 Blaster
Main Villain : Menkaura -- Lv41 Mastermind
@Laxx
"You will bend to my will, with or without your precious sanity." --Dragon Mage
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I don't think it's underperforming for anyone, some people just don't like playing straight Defense sets. It's not Supposed to be for everyone. All three ATs that get SR can get Dark Melee. All 3 can IO for soft capped Def. All 3 get Elude. You don't need Parry to get good results out of SR.
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It's not that it underperforms on any specific AT. It's that it underperforms:
1) Without IOs
2) At lower levels
Playing a low level SR was one of the most frustrating things I've ever done. It was basically like playing a Brute with no secondary, but still using up endurance anyway. Every enemy was still capable of reducing me to negative defense, and I had no RES, regen, or HP to fall back on. I just simply died to everything. Eventually, somewhere around 35+, SR starts to do better, and can eventually soft-cap fairly easily with IOs, However, the ride and the non-IO path isn't very fun.
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I agree with your "number 2", but "number 1" I disagree with. I have an MA/SR who doesn't have anything beyond basic IOs slotted in his powers and he doesn't underperform. 33ish% Defense isn't exactly bad defenses. There's too much emphasis on minimizing your chances to be hit that any numbers that don't reach that point are seen as underperforming.
Of course, that's not to say I'm not going to eventually soft-cap him, because I plan to, but he doesn't underperform at all.
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I found my fire/sr scrapper was lame until I got SOs. Then it was just blazing through missions. IO's just make it go kablooey with powerfulness.
I think SR is fine, it's just that since IO's people have internally raised their baseline of performance. An IO'd SR is worlds apart from a SO'd version, but a SO'd version makes a fine scrapper (haven't played it on a brute or stalker, so I can't speak to them).
'It's not as good as it can get' is not underperforming. That's performing.
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I agree with your "number 2", but "number 1" I disagree with. I have an MA/SR who doesn't have anything beyond basic IOs slotted in his powers and he doesn't underperform. 33ish% Defense isn't exactly bad defenses. There's too much emphasis on minimizing your chances to be hit that any numbers that don't reach that point are seen as underperforming.
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A regular SR Scrapper gets hit about 20% of the time (1/5 hits) while an IOed SR Scrapper gets hit about 5% of the time (1/20 hits). You're about 4x more durable once you get IOs.
Base SR mitigation is pretty decent, but once you take IOs it's practically ridiculous. So, not that base SR is bad, but that it becomes crazy-good with the addition of IOs.
Level 50 IO SR is a huge leap from level 50 SO SR, which is a huge leap from level 25 SO SR. Soft capped SR is really powerful, while base SR is fairly decent, while lower level SR is atrocious. It's huge leaps and bounds, and suffering through all the early grade stuff kinda sucks a lot.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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How can a set that has so many videos from various people soloing AVs and having many successfull RWZ Scrapper Challenges be considered underperforming?
Most of which I have seen are /SR in regards to scrappers
Post Comic book Fan Films that ROCK!
Fight my brute
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How can a set that has so many videos from various people soloing AVs and having many successfull RWZ Scrapper Challenges be considered underperforming?
Most of which I have seen are /SR in regards to scrappers
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Let me refer you to the "with IOs" and "at low levels" points of my previous three posts or so, and then you can get back to me. It's not about what SR is capable of doing at it its peak. It's about the journey there, which is very unfriendly.
What SR is like is basically like Doms were until just recently. At their peak, maxed out, absolutely extremely powerful. However, at any point below that peak, not very fun to play and one of the worst possible things ever in the pre-30 game. To say that there's no problem because they're good when maxed out is ignoring all the low level bumps in the road. Playing a low level SR character simply sucks, no matter what the set is going to be capable of "eventually."
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I'm going to have to agree with people who said Gravity Control, Sonic Resonance, and Electric Blast.
Gravity misses out soft-control and utility powers in order to get Propel and Dimension Shift. Sure, Propel has knockback, but it's no Ice Slick or Quicksand. Soft controls have been very powerful ever since Issue 5, when hard controls got a big nerf. They're generally more available, they have useful effects (usually a debuff attached, as well) that last a long time, and they're almost always AoE. They constitute a lot of the, hands down, most effective powers in the game. Their importance cannot be overstated.
I think Gravity would benefit a lot from a soft control power, and I don't think many people would miss Dimension Shift.
Sonic Resonance is a lot like Force Fields (actually more like Cold). It's not as defensive as Force Fields (about as defensive as Cold, though), but it supposedly makes up for that with some offensive-boosting capabilities. It really doesn't completely make up for it, though.
Force Fields can give 40-45% defense, which is about equivalent to 80-90% resistance, which is higher than the resistance cap for squishies, which Sonic Resonance doesn't get to. To top that off, FF gets some actually good, available (Liquefy's cooldown is too long) KB powers that further help to mitigate damage. Many other sets also have soft controls to mitigate damage with. Sonic rather sorely lacks a good one (having to rely on a teammate being good with Sonic Repulsion kinda kills it).
Now let's take a look at Cold. It offers about the same defense as Sonic Resonance from its shields, but it's rich in the soft control and debuffs that Sonic lacks. Sleet's KB is an excellent defensive tool, and really helps deal with the aggro that Snowstorm brings upon you. The -recharge and slow from both sleet and snowstorm provide further mitigation. Sonic's got nothing that can compete with Heat Loss.
Really, Sonic's problem is that the offensive offerings don't make up for the weakened defensive offerings. The numbers on its shields might seem good, but that's really all it's got. It doesn't have a good soft control/debuff power to supplement that. It's not a bad set, but it's unpopular for more reasons than the graphics.
Electric Blast's problems lie solely in its secondary effect. The problem is that, most of the time, it does exactly nothing.
Returning a bit of endurance to the user is kinda useful, but it's neither reliable nor very effective. It's not enough to free the user from endurance worries to the point where they don't have to implement another solution (such as Stamina). So really, the endurance situation of Electric Blast is no different from that of any other blast set, and it, in fact, does pretty much nothing.
Draining endurance is a whole other can of worms. It's completely useless unless you have enough of it to utterly drain the foe you want to disable, and then you have to constantly apply a -recovery effect to them or else they'll just use endurance as they get it and, essentially, attack as normal.
So unless you specifically tailor your character for draining (and very few set combinations can do it well), you're going to get nothing out of it. You'll get as much secondary effect as Fire Blast, but you won't get Fire Blast's wonderful damage to go with it.
I really can't think of any underperforming sets. At all. Now of course that kinda defeats the purpose of posting in a thread ABOUT crappy sets..but.. I think that if you like a set, that means its performing.
Who cares if it doesnt kill/mez/take damage like Powerset XXX? As long as your having fun, I am pretty certain you will play much better than if you used a set that DID perform, but you hated.
I happen to have a grav/bubbles troller, and a sonic fender, two sets that seem to cop a lot of grief here. As modest as it sounds, i totally rock on both. I find no trouble locking stuff down with my 'low on control-ish' grav, and as for sonic..yeah, making a team have capped resits to 95% of damage types..that sucks? Right? Every stf i have done with my sonic has been a master...apart from when some idiot ran off alone and died.
As someone else on this thread said..it is the player that makes the build under perform, and some players just arent cut out for certain AT types.
To agree with some other posters..its good theres so few sets viewed as under performing.
Now, post some more people..I am enjoying this thread.
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How can a set that has so many videos from various people soloing AVs and having many successfull RWZ Scrapper Challenges be considered underperforming?
Most of which I have seen are /SR in regards to scrappers
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Let me refer you to the "with IOs" and "at low levels" points of my previous three posts or so, and then you can get back to me. It's not about what SR is capable of doing at it its peak. It's about the journey there, which is very unfriendly.
What SR is like is basically like Doms were until just recently. At their peak, maxed out, absolutely extremely powerful. However, at any point below that peak, not very fun to play and one of the worst possible things ever in the pre-30 game. To say that there's no problem because they're good when maxed out is ignoring all the low level bumps in the road. Playing a low level SR character simply sucks, no matter what the set is going to be capable of "eventually."
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Given that the set's had a good reputation long before IOs, I really doubt they're 'necessary'.
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Underperforming means that if played with the same degree of skill, that set is less powerful than other sets for the same AT,
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That is not how the Devs define underperformance.
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If you're such an expert, then how exactly do the devs define underperformance?
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I'm not an expert, but I have been paying attention for the last 4 years. Castle has seemed to datamine underperformance/overperformance based PRIMARILY, but not exclusively, on rates of Inf and XP gain over time, solo and teamed. Invuln was shown to be underperforming on THAT basis, as was War Mace, Assault Rifle and several other sets recently.
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I'm not sure how this is different than what I suggested. If a set is not gaining xp/inf as fast as it should, it's because either A, it can't kill enemies as quickly, or B, dies more. That's pretty much the definition of "Less Powerful". Now maybe they don't directly compare sets to each other, invulnerability vs. willpower for example. Maybe there's some inf/xp per hour metric that all sets are compared to, but as far as we're concerned they give the same result. If player perception is that powerset F is underperforming when compared to powersets A through E, then it's probably falling behind in the metric that they use to compare them as well. And it's easier to believe that the devs need to correct powerset F, than the other 5.
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I don't think it's underperforming for anyone, some people just don't like playing straight Defense sets. It's not Supposed to be for everyone. All three ATs that get SR can get Dark Melee. All 3 can IO for soft capped Def. All 3 get Elude. You don't need Parry to get good results out of SR.
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It's not that it underperforms on any specific AT. It's that it underperforms:
1) Without IOs
2) At lower levels
Playing a low level SR was one of the most frustrating things I've ever done. It was basically like playing a Brute with no secondary, but still using up endurance anyway. Every enemy was still capable of reducing me to negative defense, and I had no RES, regen, or HP to fall back on. I just simply died to everything. Eventually, somewhere around 35+, SR starts to do better, and can eventually soft-cap fairly easily with IOs, However, the ride and the non-IO path isn't very fun.
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I agree with your "number 2", but "number 1" I disagree with. I have an MA/SR who doesn't have anything beyond basic IOs slotted in his powers and he doesn't underperform. 33ish% Defense isn't exactly bad defenses. There's too much emphasis on minimizing your chances to be hit that any numbers that don't reach that point are seen as underperforming.
Of course, that's not to say I'm not going to eventually soft-cap him, because I plan to, but he doesn't underperform at all.
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I found my fire/sr scrapper was lame until I got SOs. Then it was just blazing through missions. IO's just make it go kablooey with powerfulness.
I think SR is fine, it's just that since IO's people have internally raised their baseline of performance. An IO'd SR is worlds apart from a SO'd version, but a SO'd version makes a fine scrapper (haven't played it on a brute or stalker, so I can't speak to them).
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True that. Low level SR is in no worst shape than any Resistance based sets that are still lacking slots and SOs to reach their cap. People should just accept the fact that it is normal to be weaker in the lower levels. So are the enemies ( most of the time nayway ).
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
If the devs were ever to raise the base defence of SR toggles in order to make them readily better out of the box, in counterpart i would not mind if they were putting a hard cap of 35% defence in order that IOed and buffed SR cant softcap and trivialize so much of the game content.
Who's with me?!!!
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
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If the devs were ever to raise the base defence of SR toggles in order to make them readily better out of the box, in counterpart i would not mind if they were putting a hard cap of 35% defence in order that IOed and buffed SR cant softcap and trivialize so much of the game content.
Who's with me?!!!
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You'll take my 40%+ ranged from my cold, dead hands...
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If the devs were ever to raise the base defence of SR toggles in order to make them readily better out of the box, in counterpart i would not mind if they were putting a hard cap of 35% defence in order that IOed and buffed SR cant softcap and trivialize so much of the game content.
Who's with me?!!!
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If they gutted my billion and a half fire/sr build that way I'd quit this game in a heartbeat.
I think most people rail on Devices because it's the only gadget themed set available blueside and it has a playstyle that doesn't appeal to everyone interested in having a gadget-based character. I know I'd love a gadget themed set that was more active and not based on setting up the battlefield. Same goes for redside and Traps.
Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!