Most Underperforming Powersets.
By
Aces_High,
Posted on: 2009-07-09 21:48 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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I'm trying to think...
You know, I think you could - and I'm speaking on an interface level - you could make a time bomb a toggle? You click the power and it sets the bomb, toggle goes on, costs very little to run but costs a lot up front... then it has a duration before it toggles off. When it toggles off, pet dies, power explodes.
I wonder if that would work...
(runs off to PM people who know more than himself)
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Do that and Time Bomb is in my build...
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
Why does Gun Drone cost SO MUCH end to summon , take TOO LONG To summon and then stays around such a short amount of time..
This power needs the end cost and summoning time shortened.. the summoning time is like.. wow.....
And it would be nice is trip mines were shortened because then people would let you actually use them on teams.. Solo no issue.. on teams no one wants to wait for you.....
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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I dont see why people complain about Devices. Devices are awesome for a tactician player!
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I've tried time and time again to like Devices. It's designed in a weird way that's unlike other Blaster sets. Almost all the powers are skippable or situational, making it hard for Devices to contribute to a Blaster's build. These replies aren't to try to shoot you down or prove anything; just going to try and explain why me and many others dislike Devices.
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Sure you trade up Build Up but you gain SO MUCH more!
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You lose Build Up, making it the only secondary set that doesn't increase your damage in any way. You also don't have any direct attacks -- also the only secondary set this way. Right off the bat, it falls way behind in how it can deal damage for you in combat. It has 3 powers at the end of the spectrum, that don't start until 28, that CAN do damage. Unfortunately, all three are interruptable. However, 1-27 offer no meaningful damage, and the pet has a huge cast time, huge end cost, and requires 100% recharge to be around all the time.
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Devices is the only secondary ( for blasters ) that let you "set up" a battlefield beforehand with land mines and caltrops! You can take your time and prepare a REAL ambush.
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This sounds cool in theory, and it's always amusing to draw enemies into a minefield, but in practice, it takes forever to set up a bunch of traps. In that time, you could've just gone in and killed the guys. It works if you want the total safety of having them die when they run around the corner, but it also takes about 10x longer than just killing them outright. In teams, this will almost never work, and people will get very impatient waiting for you to do this if you try it very often. Especially because it's unnecessary.
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Targeting Drone: A great power that boosts your accuracy AND perception. All good stuff for blasters.
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Useful, but rarely necessary. Not that it's not one of the best powers in the set, and worth taking for everyone, but you don't always need accuracy and perception. It's a lot more situational than giving you bonus damage, which helps all Blasters all the time.
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Taser is a solid Stun that stacks very well with Beanbags or Stunning Arrow.
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While true, Elec has a hold, Energy has 2 100% stuns, Ice has a hold and sleep, and Mental has confuse and fear. All the other sets besides Fire have just as much of a control ability as Taser, and most of them have MORE than that to offer. For instance, Energy is full of stuns and knockbacks even if they aren't always reliable, and Ice has a bunch of slows.
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Web Grenade: Great immob. good vs AVs, great before using location aoes like Ignite!
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All the sets besides Energy have an immobilize. And Web Grenade is the only one that doesn't do damage. And while all of the immobilizes would cause redraw, Devices is the obvious thematic choice to pair with the weapon sets, meaning the fact that it causes redraw is twice as annoying.
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Sure, the set has some duds or powers that are useful in only a few situations, like Time Bomb. Ive been toying with this one and still cant come up with great uses for it. If only they were giving us a REMOTE Detonator haha. Now thta would rock!
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Part of it's that Time Bomb only offers about a 30% damage increase over Trip Mine, for about a hundred times more hassle and availability. But part of it's that you can't use either one of them when you're actually IN combat. It's also partly that in the 30 seconds it takes for you to plant the bomb and have it go off, you could've easily killed all the badguys already. Or at the very least, planted two Trip Mines.
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Cloaking Device: A very decent Stealth power that stacks greatly with SS or a stealth IO. No need to waste a power choice in a power pool. It comes with your secondary powerset!
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Useful in some situations, but largely unnecessary. Since all it offers is minor stealth and a small defense boost, it doesn't do much for Blasters. The stealth isn't enough unless stacked, the DEF doesn't do much, and there are no other benefits. Maybe if it offered critical hits akin to Stalker-style, it would address the issue of being not very useful as well as not having much damage in the secondary.
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Auto Turret: Decent DPS added to your attacks and it is now mobile! Too bad it doesnt last longer and is so slow to cast...
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You pretty much explained why people don't like it. It's useful, but having to suffer through a 6 second cast time every 90 seconds is annoying. Nobody would try to use it inside combat, so why does it need a massive cast time which is interruptable? Having a longer duration would also make it a lot more tolerable.
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Overall, Devices is very useful for creative players. And thank god it feels different for a change. So bored of playing powersets that are all looking alike with different colors. Devices are UNIQUE just like Traps are UNIQUE!
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Interestingly enough, I like Traps as it has a lot of useful powers. It has a great AoE control/debuff, a great team buff, and a sprinkling of useful debuff powers to apply. None of the powers in Devices, though, really stand out as overly cool or useful.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I dont see why people complain about Devices. Devices are awesome for a tactician player!
Sure you trade up Build Up but you gain SO MUCH more!
Devices is the only secondary ( for blasters ) that let you "set up" a battlefield beforehand with land mines and caltrops! You can take your time and prepare a REAL ambush.
Targeting Drone: A great power that boosts your accuracy AND perception. All good stuff for blasters.
Taser is a solid Stun that stacks very well with Beanbags or Stunning Arrow.
Web Grenade: Great immob. good vs AVs, great before using location aoes like Ignite!
Sure, the set has some duds or powers that are useful in only a few situations, like Time Bomb. Ive been toying with this one and still cant come up with great uses for it. If only they were giving us a REMOTE Detonator haha. Now thta would rock!
Cloaking Device: A very decent Stealth power that stacks greatly with SS or a stealth IO. No need to waste a power choice in a power pool. It comes with your secondary powerset!
Auto Turret: Decent DPS added to your attacks and it is now mobile! Too bad it doesnt last longer and is so slow to cast...
Overall, Devices is very useful for creative players. And thank god it feels different for a change. So bored of playing powersets that are all looking alike with different colors. Devices are UNIQUE just like Traps are UNIQUE!
Woot!
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Web Grenade: Falls far behind the immobilizes in all the other blaster secondaries. Same Mag and duration of the immobilize, but the others do damage.
Caltrops: One of the better powers in the set, but it can cause lots of problems on teams if it's not used properly.
Taser: Basically the same power as stun in energy manipulation, with a slightly longer range. Unlike stun though, there's nothing else in devices to stack the stuns with to help you deal with troublesome bosses and the like.
Targeting Drone: Another okay power, but it falls behind build up in a lot of ways. Most importantly, it doesn't give any damage bonus. This wasn't as big of an issue before ED, when it meant that devices players could 6-slot for damage, while everyone else had to 5-slot with 1 accuracy. Now, that extra damage from being able to slot more damage isn't there. It also doesn't give nearly as big of a to-hit buff as buildup does, so in cases where you need a large buff (i.e. trying to punch through MoG on a paragon protector) you don't have it.
Smoke Grenade: It's okay, but with cloaking device in the set already, the -perception isn't really needed that much, and the to-hit debuff is very minor.
Cloaking Device: Another okay power. The stealth makes it easier to set up trip mines and the like, and to stealth missions, but it doesn't do much in combat.
Trip Mine: Another one of the better powers in the set, as long as you have the patience of a saint. They're much better solo than on teams, since most teams won't wait for 5 minutes while you set up a minefield to deal with 1 spawn (and rightfully so)
Time Bomb: Would be a great power if you could control when it goes off. Since you can't, it's very difficult to get anything else to go off at the same time (a trip mine or nuke for example). It generally can't take out bosses by itself, and you could take out a group of minions/LTs easier and faster with a trip mine. So why take it?
Gun Drone: Another power that could be good, but at the moment is nothing impressive. A 6 second casting time for a power that only lasts 90 seconds (assuming it doesn't get destroyed sooner, since it can take damage) is ridiculous. If the pet it summoned were permanent until destroyed it would be much better.
It's not that devices is a terrible set, but it's just not as good as the others, and it's not as good as it could be if they tweaked it just a little. It's difficult to use on teams, since so much of it involves long set-up times, and when soloing, there's nothing it can do that you can't do faster, easier, and often safer with another set like energy or ice.
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Smoke Grenade: It's okay, but with cloaking device in the set already, the -perception isn't really needed that much, and the to-hit debuff is very minor.
Cloaking Device: Another okay power. The stealth makes it easier to set up trip mines and the like, and to stealth missions, but it doesn't do much in combat.
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these two combined however give you full invisibility if there is a spawn just where you dont want them to be
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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I dont see why people complain about Devices. Devices are awesome for a tactician player!
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I've tried time and time again to like Devices. It's designed in a weird way that's unlike other Blaster sets. Almost all the powers are skippable or situational, making it hard for Devices to contribute to a Blaster's build. These replies aren't to try to shoot you down or prove anything; just going to try and explain why me and many others dislike Devices.
[/ QUOTE ]It's different. It's not the same. Therefore, it's different to build, and doesn't build like normal blasters.
Did I accurately summarise?
Energy Melee x 5
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
Because it is so fresh in my mind, my main Thunderkiss is a 42 Electric Melee/Electric Armor. I remember watching my SO play his SS/INV and he is/was beastlike even when he was my level.
The armor has no heal and mid's numbers on my resists are lackluster except for energy. Which is around 90% IIRC. I agree with some of the others here about how to fix ELA, I wish it would happen.. 
~TK
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I'm trying to think...
You know, I think you could - and I'm speaking on an interface level - you could make a time bomb a toggle? You click the power and it sets the bomb, toggle goes on, costs very little to run but costs a lot up front... then it has a duration before it toggles off. When it toggles off, pet dies, power explodes.
I wonder if that would work...
(runs off to PM people who know more than himself)
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If this had been a few years ago, I would've said make Time Bomb summon an enemy conning pseudopet that could be targeted, and destroyed, whenever the player chose to do so.
Of course, we can now look to Oil Slick Arrow and see exactly how buggy that sort of power can be.
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
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Ill make it simple.. Things wrong with Fire Armor
Fire Armors resistances are too low compared to other other tanks that have the ability to stack defense AND resistance together to aid their survivability...
Fire Armor has no immobilize or Knockback resistance in its toggles which means more power pools... or expensive IO;s are needed just to do its job.
Fire Armor has no tier 9 like most other tanks which AID its ability to survive. Unstoppable helps you SURVIVE... Hibernate Helps you SURVIVE.. Strength of Will.. One with the Shield... GRANITE... PLEASE..... The fire tank waits until level 32 to get a power that DOESNT help them and which will not be used most of the time they are playing... WOW what a jip...
NO tank should have a tier NINE power that you can only use AFTER you are dead.. Stupid.. Stupid concept.. Rise of the Phoenix should be move to earlier in the set....
Fiery Embrace is far less useful if you are NOT Fire Melee... Which is also bad design... THIS should have been the tier 9 and like one of the above posters said something that engulfs you in tremendous flame.. You get more resistance.. you get more end recovery and you get more damage until it crashes.. It should be something like rage.. THEN your fire tank is the offensive Juggernaut of tanks.. and lower resistance could actually make SENSE..
Fire Tanks today are still paying for the fact that burn was overpowered and then nerfed ( rightfully so because it was over the top) but then the devs went one step further and added a fear affect which scatters mobs and takes foes away from the fire tank which rendered the power useless to many ( including this tank )
Blazing Aura is hellacious on endurance Ive got three end redux in it just to get it down to the cost of a NORMAL toggle... Thats a lot of end for a MINOR damage attack.... and while ICE has the same it also has enegry absorption to help with its end and while Stone has Mud Poys they also slow and immobilize..
Fire Tanks are still paying for the changes that occured with ED, with much lower resistance that make it MANDATORY for you to take tough just to survive.
Temperature Protection is a freaking joke... And I dont care that they added some stuff to a power that I would never take. They should have added that to the toggles I already HAVE which are already lacking Immobilize and Knockback resistance...
I cant think of anything else right now and just making this post has made me upset about all the things that have been wrong about Fire Armor for YEARS now..
We did get a boost to Healing Flames and that helped A LOT... but it still falls far behind other tank sets in terms of survival and I have played them to 50 with the exception of Dark and Stone.. and I built my wife's Stone/SS tank and I have watched her tank two and three AV's at a time and survive...
Fire Armor is definitely underperforming...
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Everyone's entitled to their (wrong) opinion.
Ever hear of a little power called Consume?
And you'd rather wait longer to get FE so that you can get the self rez earlier? Yea, that makes a lot of sense.
Also, QR: Taser can be stacked on a boss just by slotting it, you don't need additional stun powers.
Almost every set and power mentioned in this thread is NOT underperforming when used properly. L2P people.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Everyone's entitled to their (wrong) opinion.
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It's impossible for an opinion to be wrong. That's why they're opinions and not facts.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Also, QR: Taser can be stacked on a boss just by slotting it, you don't need additional stun powers.
Almost every set and power mentioned in this thread is NOT underperforming when used properly. L2P people.
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Sure, you can stack taser with itself, but it takes about 10 seconds to do so, A boss can put the hurt on you pretty bad in 10 seconds.
Just because player skill can make a set playable doesn't mean that set isn't underperforming. Fortunately for us, we don't have ANY sets that are unplayable in this game. Underperforming means that if played with the same degree of skill, that set is less powerful than other sets for the same AT, and for a lot of the sets mentioned here, that's true.
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Underperforming means that if played with the same degree of skill, that set is less powerful than other sets for the same AT, and for a lot of the sets mentioned here, that's true.
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Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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Everyone's entitled to their (wrong) opinion.
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It's impossible for an opinion to be wrong. That's why they're opinions and not facts.
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However it is very possible for people to miss sarcasm when they see it.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Underperforming means that if played with the same degree of skill, that set is less powerful than other sets for the same AT,
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That is not how the Devs define underperformance.
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and for a lot of the sets mentioned here, that's true.
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That is a matter of opinion.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Underperforming means that if played with the same degree of skill, that set is less powerful than other sets for the same AT,
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That is not how the Devs define underperformance.
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If you're such an expert, then how exactly do the devs define underperformance?
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Everyone's entitled to their (wrong) opinion.
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It's impossible for an opinion to be wrong. That's why they're opinions and not facts.
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In my opinion the world is flat, we're just looking at pictures from space wrong.
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That is not how the Devs define underperformance.
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Then why did Invulnerability get buffed? Before the buff, Invul's performance was satisfactory, despite getting outshone by the other protection sets. Invul tankers didn't NEED a buff to do their job, and easily cleared the minimum hurdles, but that didn't change the fact that there was no clear reason to choose Invul over, say, Willpower.
It's great that you enjoy making high performance characters out of sub-par powersets, but no AT or powerset is supposed to be the "challenge" build. It is not a design goal to install newbie traps into the game and trick people into picking the weakest build.
Arc #41077 - The Men of State
Arc #48845 - Operation: Dirty Snowball
The sets I think are underperforming:
[*]Energy Blast[*]Energy Melee[*]Electric Blast[*]Mercs for MMs. The reason why I added this in here is because the cones from the pets are really narrow and, wish to see them increased to something reasonable. Perhaps 20 feet or so.
I agree with the sentiment expressed by lots of others. We don't have any BAD sets, just some that noticeably lag behind their counterparts in terms of performance. Yes, a good player can still make these sets shine, but someone going from say, Fire or Illusion Control to Grav Control could reasonably be expected to say, "Hey, this set isn't as good." even if they were equally competent with both sets.
In a lot of cases, these powersets are just very vanilla. They lack the extra oomph or neat secondary effects that make their counterparts stand out.
My not-so-fab five:
Electric Blast (blasters and defenders) - Endurance Drain just isn't that good a secondary effect. If you build your whole character around it, you can sometimes see some practical effect from it, unless you're a blaster. The nice hold balances this out somewhat, but the pitiful AoE really drags this one down.
Electric Armor - ElA has lots of neat utility powers, but it's not all that good at actually improving survival, which is what the set is there for.
Gravity Control - A controller set doing a blaster imitation... badly. Pretty good damage for a controller but your main AoE control is the quirky Wormhole. Even paired with kin, those animation times make you feel slow. Doesn't have any secondary effects like -def or -recharge either.
Mercenaries - The vanilla Mastermind set. Functional, but really has nothing to recommend it.
Devices - Probably one of the oddest sets in the game, it really makes no effort at being anything like its counterparts. I rather like the concept for the originality, but in terms of performance, I've always found myself wishing I'd taken something else. Trip mines and time bomb can do good damage in a burst, but are really team unfriendly, and even solo, you'll generally do more damage over time doing things the old fashioned way. A lot of neat tricks in the set, outside of the mine and bomb, but the best of them are easily replaced by pools or IOs. Gun Drone is one good fix away from awesome (seriously 90 sec duration?), but still, no way to boost your damage at all drags this one into the bottom 5.
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Underperforming means that if played with the same degree of skill, that set is less powerful than other sets for the same AT,
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That is not how the Devs define underperformance.
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If you're such an expert, then how exactly do the devs define underperformance?
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I'm not an expert, but I have been paying attention for the last 4 years. Castle has seemed to datamine underperformance/overperformance based PRIMARILY, but not exclusively, on rates of Inf and XP gain over time, solo and teamed. Invuln was shown to be underperforming on THAT basis, as was War Mace, Assault Rifle and several other sets recently.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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no AT or powerset is supposed to be the "challenge" build
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Although I have no evidence that the Devs really look at things this way, my perception is that they are OK with some sets actually being more difficult to play than others.
Storm Summoning is a fantastic example of a set that requires actual skill and thought to play effectively.
Force Fields is a decent example of a set that does not require much skill or thought (unless you actually put effort into using your knockback and repel powers).
Note that it is actually the less demanding set that players in this thread have called underperforming (although I suspect it is largely because they only use the Defense powers and think of the knockback/repel powers as 'useless').
Warshades take more skill to play effectively than Peacebringers, and when that effort is put in they yield potentially greater rewards than the PB. THAT I believe is intentional. The devs made it harder to get going with the WS, but you have greater potential if you put in the effort.
That, to me, is strong evidence supporting the assertion that the Devs HAVE made some sets more skill demanding than others.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
I hope the folks railing on and on for Devices change will allow those of us that enjoy the different playstyle to keep our version or at least follow the "cottage rule" when proposing changes.
... like changing auto turret to a mobile pet?
Ill make it simple.. Things wrong with Fire Armor
Fire Armors resistances are too low compared to other other tanks that have the ability to stack defense AND resistance together to aid their survivability...
Fire Armor has no immobilize or Knockback resistance in its toggles which means more power pools... or expensive IO;s are needed just to do its job.
Fire Armor has no tier 9 like most other tanks which AID its ability to survive. Unstoppable helps you SURVIVE... Hibernate Helps you SURVIVE.. Strength of Will.. One with the Shield... GRANITE... PLEASE..... The fire tank waits until level 32 to get a power that DOESNT help them and which will not be used most of the time they are playing... WOW what a jip...
NO tank should have a tier NINE power that you can only use AFTER you are dead.. Stupid.. Stupid concept.. Rise of the Phoenix should be move to earlier in the set....
Fiery Embrace is far less useful if you are NOT Fire Melee... Which is also bad design... THIS should have been the tier 9 and like one of the above posters said something that engulfs you in tremendous flame.. You get more resistance.. you get more end recovery and you get more damage until it crashes.. It should be something like rage.. THEN your fire tank is the offensive Juggernaut of tanks.. and lower resistance could actually make SENSE..
Fire Tanks today are still paying for the fact that burn was overpowered and then nerfed ( rightfully so because it was over the top) but then the devs went one step further and added a fear affect which scatters mobs and takes foes away from the fire tank which rendered the power useless to many ( including this tank )
Blazing Aura is hellacious on endurance Ive got three end redux in it just to get it down to the cost of a NORMAL toggle... Thats a lot of end for a MINOR damage attack.... and while ICE has the same it also has enegry absorption to help with its end and while Stone has Mud Poys they also slow and immobilize..
Fire Tanks are still paying for the changes that occured with ED, with much lower resistance that make it MANDATORY for you to take tough just to survive.
Temperature Protection is a freaking joke... And I dont care that they added some stuff to a power that I would never take. They should have added that to the toggles I already HAVE which are already lacking Immobilize and Knockback resistance...
I cant think of anything else right now and just making this post has made me upset about all the things that have been wrong about Fire Armor for YEARS now..
We did get a boost to Healing Flames and that helped A LOT... but it still falls far behind other tank sets in terms of survival and I have played them to 50 with the exception of Dark and Stone.. and I built my wife's Stone/SS tank and I have watched her tank two and three AV's at a time and survive...
Fire Armor is definitely underperforming...
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-