Most Underperforming Powersets.
By
Aces_High,
Posted on: 2009-07-09 21:48 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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I have to call you out on saying dark melee is gimmicky. I'm not really sure where that opinion comes from. It has one of the most well-rounded and diverse collections of powers in any melee set out there.
The first 2 powers make a great buzzsaw attack chain with very respectable DPS.
The damage type is rarely resisted.
Siphon life is not only a great attack, but it heals you when you use it.
Dark Consumption let's you get end. back faster.
Soul drain is a ridiculously good replacement for build-up.
Midnight Grasp is better than ever.
Sure, everyone who plays dark melee should take siphon life, but you can say that about half the set. That's hardly a gimmick.
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Derp derp. Please excuse my retardation. Did I say Dark Melee is part of the gimmick dance? What I *meant* was that it's not. I musta been thinking of Stalker DM or something (Stalker Melee: Say hello to my little toolbox. Oh you've met him already?), cause it's a blast. In fact, I was playing with it about an hour ago and going WHEEEEEE! *shakes head*
Sometimes I do that stupidness thing. DM is really quite different overall from other melee sets. I'd say between Siphon Life, Dark Consumption and Soul Drain, that's enough difference for it to be seriously a different set. And damned fun, too.
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Defense IS less Dependable at the low levels. That is ENTIRELY by design. If you don't LIKE the design of Defense = Safety, Resistance = Dependability, then maybe you should play Res sets instead?
However, your argument that 12% defense might as well not be there? That is hyperbole and is NOT an opinion, it is simply factually incorrect. 12% Defense takes you from getting hit by half of attacks to getting hit by a third of attacks. That is not insignificant, but is not yet dependable on the scale of SO slotted powers. That is the design.
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"That is not insignificant" <--- This is the opinion part of your argument. My opinion is that it is insignificant. We're both basing this opinion off the same math, which was the fact part.
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No. YOU said "it may as well not be there". I am saying THAT is factually incorrect. Whether it is significant or not IS a matter of opinion, but saying "it may as well not be there" suggests that 12% does Nothing for you, which is demonstrably false.
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*sigh*
Okay. I feel the number, 12%, a number I included in my original post signifying my undeniable realization of this numbers existence, is insignificant. How insignificant do I think it is? I think "it might as well not even be there." That isn't to say that I think the toggle is lost, or stolen, or disbelieve in the toggles existence. Rather, that the toggle is offering very little right out of the box, and due to the nature of defense with it's "all or nothing" approach it "might as well not even be there." which is all part of my opinion based on the numbers I provided in my other post.
In contrast to resistance which is always on and always working. You aren't going to sometimes resist 12% damage and sometimes resist no damage based on some unknown luck factor. You turn it on, you get a set amount of resistance, and that's the end of it. Defense on the other hand can *say* 12%, but what it really means is the enemy only has a 38% *chance* to hit. That doesn't mean you're only going to get hit 38 times out of a 100. sometimes it's 12 times out of a 100. Sometimes it's 100 times out of a 100. However, as you add a higher percentage to your *chance* to get hit, the *chance* of it occurring is going to decrease. You're much less likely to get 100% of the time when you have 45% defense, but that doesn't mean it still can't happen. It just probably won't.
I don't know how to make my opinion any clearer. There's some numbers for you. There's an opinion above that. Go nuts.
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Anyway, I generally feel defense in general suffers more at lower levels than anything else by the nature that it either works or it doesn't, and you need a lot of it to work well.
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Defense sets at low levels suffer from a nasty one-two punch: they have little to no defense debuff resistance, and they come up against a lot of defense debuffs. Every gun-toting thug can strip away about half their mitigation with one attack (most gun defense debuffs are around 7%). The ones with axes can take it away entirely (they tend to be around 15%). By the time they hit the higher levels, they have enough defense to eat the debuff, they have enough debuff resistance to make it harmless, and they don't run into them constantly anyway.
We'll always have Paragon.
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For some reason, Swoop is also qualified as an aoe according to real numbers to boot (...I'm confused at this).
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Gauntlet.
Your other observations are riddled with misunderstandings. Pain Dom isnt as good as Empathy at some thing because the ATs that get Pain Dom are different from the ATs that get Empathy. All the direct comparisons you've made suffer from this. Bane doesn't do as much damage as X, but has other advantages. For example, Widows single target, single attack burst damage is nothing compared to a bane's Executioner's Strike. Some folks say DPS is king. I say that's a very limited view. Not all missions are either AVs or hordes of exploitable hami mitos.
EDIT: (On an unrelated note, the idea of hordes of people with level 50 characters who have never fought anything with them but mitos that CANNOT ATTACK BACK is frightening to me.)
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Excuse me what? I made a comparison of Pain Domination and Thermal, both of which are shared by an AT. I should point out that Thermal and Empathy are shared by an AT as well and both are equally competitive. Thermal blows Pain out of the water with reliable resists from shields, reliable +damage from Forge, massive debuff in heat exhaustion, arguably the best rez in the game, and a targettable debuff that doesn't require a squishy corruptor to get into melee. Meh.
Also, you may want to check your math. Judging by real numbers in game, using Arachnos Soldier and Arachnos Widow as the ATs respectively, Slash does 2 ticks of 76.31 damage with a 101.75 crit. Shatter does 126.79 damage plus 84.53 smashing on a crit and 5 ticks of 4.17 damage. Basic rudimentary math would tell us that Slash (a Widow Skill) does a total of 254.37 damage while Shatter (i.e. Executioner Strike) does 232.17. Not only do widows do more damage, they animate faster in their attack (insignificant point). This is while running around and soft capping their team with mind link (or close enough) and being soft capped themselves.
Yes, DPS may be king but it's not exactly something banes shine in either, apparently.
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I'll add a few power sets to the list I all around don't much care for or find underperforming as well.
First and top of the list are Peacebringers. Before the Kheld enthusiasts come out in arms, I want to state that PBs (human and tri) are capable of doing quite a few things, but are often completely overshadowed by Warshades and most other ATs in the game. They suffer a horrid case of the explosive knockbacks and their damage can be replicated, if not completely trounced, by anything not a defender or tanker (and both of those are arguable). A fully purpled out PB can nuke every other spawn or toss out some good nova damage, but they're just all around lack luster to a degree of "meh."
Next on the list comes the Bane Spider. In both the short term and the long term, the one advantage they arguably have over their siblings is surveillance, which is completely overshadowed by the fact that both crabs and widows obliterate their aoe and single target damage respectively, and fortunata outcontrol the snot out of them. They're as fragile as a blapper and do nowhere near the damage (and blasters get surveillance and power boost to boot). While they do possess killing power, it tends to pale in the face of, again, anything else that can do substantial amounts of damage. The only exception is a heavily purpled out bane that will still underperform when compared to a heavily purpled crab that's a monstrous killing machine or a heavily purpled widow that runs around soft cap and tossing out crazy damage anyways.
Shield Defense is the next on the list and this one's a bit iffy. Tanker Shield Defense is actually a pretty decent, if not good, set because their numbers are fairly high and the damage values and shield charge really do give a boost for the low damage AT. Scrappers get some serious love from Against All Odds and Shield Charge makes the mans fall down. Brutes, however, get the worst of both worlds (horrid defense numbers, low AAO) and their shield charge is capped at tanker values. This means that not only is the set difficult to cap when compared to SR, Shield Charge doesn't actually mature past 300% as far as I remember. Add on the crippling end usage for a brute which already suffers from endurance dysfunction and you have a much worse copy of Super Reflexes and even Energy Aura (which now has a good energy absorption and a much, much, much better tier 9) and it's arguably the worst brute secondary around. Sure you can purple it out, but expect to spend ridiculous amounts compared to anything short of EA.
Pain Domination is another doozy that's just all around a disappointing version of Empathy. There is very little to the set I feel that actually contributes fully to a group and can't be replicated elsewhere. Gone are three of empathy's most useful tools (the Auras and Fortitude) replaced with an aura that replicates Thermal Shields except PBAoE. Gone is Adrenalin Boost instead replaced by a more tame Painbringer that trades the 100 recharge (why?!) with damage. Anguishing Cry gets notable mention for being a near direct copy of Melt Armor except PBAoE and lasts less time. So Pain is a mix of Thermal and Empathy without much of the sets awesome abilities (Forge, Fortitude, the Auras, Heat Exhaustion) that will be easily outperformed by both in any and all situations. The one exception to this statement is the awesome that is Suppress Pain on a Mastermind, which is a suitable replacement to Regeneration Aura. Corruptors get left out in the cold, of course.
Next up on the list is Dark Blast. Having absolutely no tier 3 blast, the set is very plainly cone/aoetastic. What's worse is that most of those cones tend to be overshadowed by anything that has actual aoe damage, leading to a situation where Dark Blast possess one or two useful cones, a self heal, and gloom/dark blast. Toss in a really bad looking tier nine (I just can't get over how terrible it looks, it's like a thunderous fart) and you come out with a vanilla set that does terrible damage and is only worthwhile in the hands of a defender. Yes, obliterating the tohit of a spawn is good and useful, but you may as well have two secondaries. Also, kiss your personal damage goodbye.
This one's going to be confusing, but I also feel Broadsword is a giant underperforming pile of garbage compared to every other weapon set (excluding claws). Yes, it does a large amount of damage, but this is completely overshadowed by the fact that battle axe does more numerically and has more aoe to boot. What's worse is that with IOs and slotting, or even without, Katana puts Broadsword to shame in the damage, end efficiency, and all around use categories. Parry, its only saving grace, is replicated in Divine Avalanche which just further rubs Broadsword's nose in the dirt. There's better sets for doing damage (especially ludicrously high amounts of damage) and better sets for survivability that don't make you suck down end like it's going out of style. Meh.
Honorable mention goes out to Super Strength, as was mentioned earlier, and Stone Armor. Both of these sets suffer from a horribly crippling crutch (Rage and Granite) that, if taken away or balanced will leave each set a floundering and bad shadow of virtually everything else in existence. Kinetics gets a pass because while Speed Boost and Fulcrum Shift are indeed pieces of awesome, Transference, Transfusion, Siphon Speed, and Increase Density are all lovable and huggable pieces of awesome too.
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Next to Warshades, Peacebringers do leave a bit to be desired, but at least their buffs are self-contained. The knockback of a lot of their powers does tend to keep them off teams, though (at least in comparison to Warshades). Warshades also get unique powers to play with and some of those are devastating (Eclipse, I am looking at you). Maybe if Light Form did not lock you in a form it might be more useful. I agree with you on this one.
I have no experience with red-side epics so I am going to leave that one alone.
Wasn't Shield Defense was supposed to be the defense version of Fire Armor? That is, gives up some mitigation for offensive potential. If those are supposed to be comparable sets, then Shield laughs in Fire's face in kicks it in the groin, across all ATs that have access to it. Complete Mez protection (Active Defense > the cluster of powers that are Fire's lack of complete protection), static damage buff that works equally for all melee sets (Against All Odds >> Fiery Embrace), a better passive power (True Grit OR Phalanx Fighting > Temperature Protection, let alone both), better straight mitigation (Deflection and Battle Agility > Fire and Plasma Shield), a better combination of straight damage to inflict on enemies (Shield Charge > Blazing Aura and Burn, and it has a better mitigation tool in knockdown). The few pluses Fire Armor does have are Healing Flames (this is a big one, though), Consume (which is still on that horrific recharge timer), and a resurrect in Rise of the Phoenix (although many would prefer the power that helped keep you alive rather than the power that required defeat to use). If Shield is underperforming, I wish other sets would underperform like it. We won't even go into applying pools, IO sets or inspirations.
Dark Blast would be a lot better if the cone on Night Fall was wider. Then it would have two ST blasts in Dark Blast and Gloom, and two AoEs to deal damage with Night Fall and Tenebrous Tentacles. I have never found use for Torrent, Blackstar or Moonbeam but those could be considered matters of taste and playstyle. Life Drain is not bad but I have no idea why the standard range on it is not 80'. The damage is a bit lackluster and for that I think the Endurance cost and Recharge could be reduced to match Siphon Life (the melee version which has a cost of 10.2 and a recharge of 10 seconds versus the 12 and 15 of Drain). I think if you changed Torrent with Aim you have a winner as far as powersets go even if nothing else is changed, at all. Also ready to be proliferated to Blasters. Is the set overall underperforming? Maybe a little. May not be enough to get the set looked at, though, especially since it is in the Defender and Corrupter sets, where the different buff/debuff sets paired with it can make it look respectable.
Martial Arts may be the sole underperforming set as far as Scrapper Melee sets are concerned (at least with the changes to Dark Melee). If the secondary effect was consistent across its powers or of a decent enough magnitude to be useful, it would arguably not be an underperformer, either. Broadsword? Claws (saw the parenthetical)? Can't side with you on this one...
Super Strength, Stone Armor and Kinetics are your honorable mentions?! None of these should even be mentioned in an "underperforming" conversation. I am mad at myself for bringing them up again.
And now I present my "not-so-fab-5":
1) Fire Armor - Still paying for the sins of its forefathers.
2) Peacebringers - Next to Warshades, even if not in general.
3) Electric Blast - Might be serviceable on draining Blasters and Kineticists but that is about it.
4) Martial Arts - Could use some love, especially next to the other Scrapper primaries.
5) Devices - Could use some speeding up. At least Traps has Force Field Generator, Acid Mortar and Poison Trap.
I suppose I should add, these are just in a vacuum. Some of the ATs that have access to these sets in combination tend not to do too terribly. However, the same player behind the keyboard of a character with powersets closer to average will probably see better results.
11 months of all-nighters, messy feeding sessions, bath fighting and realizing just how good my son's lungs work, and I am still convinced he is the crowning accomplishment in my life. What in the blue HFIL is wrong with me?
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I am confused how you came up with 20% when 45-33 is 12. Defense is taken in such a way that it subtracts directly from ToHit the last time I was paying attention. Yes, you're getting hit a bit more than twice as often with what you're calling "base" SR defenses compared to the soft-cap, but since when was 12% hits coming in terrible? Even ignoring the scaling resistances, that's nothing to scoff at.
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A little late but
Your numbers are wrong. The differents of the 2 defense is 12%. Now if you have 33% defense and it is a even level minion attack you it will have a 50% chance to hit. So you take 50-33= 17% chance to hit. So and even level minion will have a 17% chance to hit you with 33% defense.
"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time"- Chesty Puller US Marine Corps
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For some reason, Swoop is also qualified as an aoe according to real numbers to boot (...I'm confused at this).
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Gauntlet.
Your other observations are riddled with misunderstandings. Pain Dom isnt as good as Empathy at some thing because the ATs that get Pain Dom are different from the ATs that get Empathy. All the direct comparisons you've made suffer from this. Bane doesn't do as much damage as X, but has other advantages. For example, Widows single target, single attack burst damage is nothing compared to a bane's Executioner's Strike. Some folks say DPS is king. I say that's a very limited view. Not all missions are either AVs or hordes of exploitable hami mitos.
EDIT: (On an unrelated note, the idea of hordes of people with level 50 characters who have never fought anything with them but mitos that CANNOT ATTACK BACK is frightening to me.)
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Excuse me what? I made a comparison of Pain Domination and Thermal, both of which are shared by an AT. I should point out that Thermal and Empathy are shared by an AT as well and both are equally competitive. Thermal blows Pain out of the water with reliable resists from shields, reliable +damage from Forge, massive debuff in heat exhaustion, arguably the best rez in the game, and a targettable debuff that doesn't require a squishy corruptor to get into melee. Meh.
Also, you may want to check your math. Judging by real numbers in game, using Arachnos Soldier and Arachnos Widow as the ATs respectively, Slash does 2 ticks of 76.31 damage with a 101.75 crit. Shatter does 126.79 damage plus 84.53 smashing on a crit and 5 ticks of 4.17 damage. Basic rudimentary math would tell us that Slash (a Widow Skill) does a total of 254.37 damage while Shatter (i.e. Executioner Strike) does 232.17. Not only do widows do more damage, they animate faster in their attack (insignificant point). This is while running around and soft capping their team with mind link (or close enough) and being soft capped themselves.
Yes, DPS may be king but it's not exactly something banes shine in either, apparently.
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Your math is wrong. You forgot about Surveillance. I won't go into the other advantages the Bane has that that Widow can't match. Not to say that Banes are better than Widows, and I won't even argue that they are equal, but Banes are not as far behind as some might think.
Can the Thermal or the Emp Fort or Forge or Shield themselves? No, they can't.
Do either have a permanent regen buff (poor shat upon corrs)? No, they don't.
If you're going to compare the sets then look at EVERY aspect, not just those that are favorable to your argument.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
I'm going to add my voice to the list on a few sets that are popping up all over the thread.
/Devices - Blaster
Elec/ - Blaster
Merc/ - MM
I have played and enjoyed all 3 of these to high levels; I have found ways to play each effectively and to have fun.
Regardless, it was clear to me that these sets each under perform in relation to other sets.
/Devices was effective in an entirely different iteration of CoH. There is no way for /Devices to currently make up for it's lack of a Build Up. The set is filled with "toys" instead of "weapons". Even when you're having fun, it is apparent to the honest /Devices user that others could accomplish whatever you are doing better/faster. This leaves you with a decision to make, if I find /Devices fun, is it fun enough to actually give up effectiveness?? I don't believe that is a question that should have to be answered. Some minor tweaks across /Devices could easily bring it into line. Time Bomb though, that's an abomination.
Elec/ was a set that I was able to eventually make both fun and effective but only by playing to it's singular, late game strength with one of only 2 effective secondaries to choose. I played a Sapper build, but realistically, that is very limiting to the Primary because it is only truly effective in the late game with a mature character and only if you grabbed one of the two Secondaries that allow you to really use this strategy. Elec/'s drain effect needs to be useful with or without the "right" pairing.
Merc/ suffers from just being slightly off in a few places. A trash lvl 18 Power selection that pales in comparison to the must haves from other sets just adds to the unfocused pets that would be greatly helped by a standardized range and by a 3rd Tier One pet that would play his role instead of being the healer that charges in and brawls or is at least the closest to the fight. Why doesn't someone hand this "medic" a gun with longer range but lower damage????
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I am confused how you came up with 20% when 45-33 is 12. Defense is taken in such a way that it subtracts directly from ToHit the last time I was paying attention. Yes, you're getting hit a bit more than twice as often with what you're calling "base" SR defenses compared to the soft-cap, but since when was 12% hits coming in terrible? Even ignoring the scaling resistances, that's nothing to scoff at.
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A little late but
Your numbers are wrong. The differents of the 2 defense is 12%. Now if you have 33% defense and it is a even level minion attack you it will have a 50% chance to hit. So you take 50-33= 17% chance to hit. So and even level minion will have a 17% chance to hit you with 33% defense.
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Yeah, I figured that out after I posted it and just didn't correct it, so I dunno why I used 45. It's still not 20% like it was claimed earlier.
Main Hero : Annilixxion -- Lv50 Blaster
Main Villain : Menkaura -- Lv41 Mastermind
@Laxx
"You will bend to my will, with or without your precious sanity." --Dragon Mage
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Extremely late reply to this, but this is where you contradict yourself. You first claimed that SR without IOs "underperforms", but then in this post you seem to admit that the set is "decent" with just SOs. So which is it?
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I had this huge post written up but if I keep arguing this, I'm just going to be recycling all the posts I've already made in this thread. I'm just saying the same thing every time someone replies to my posts. I'm not sure what part of the communication is breaking down, but at some point I'm not getting my point across.
Recap: All I'm complaining about is low-level SR that doesn't have IOs. If you're low level and have IOs, that can ease the pain. Low level SR without IOs is the least durable set there is. All sets have problems at low levels, but SR is the worst. Even Shield has +HP and +RES to fall back on. Other sets have +regen or heals. SR has nothing other than defense, which almost all low-level enemies debuff, and at low levels you have no DDR or scaling resist. SR is a late-bloomer, and that's why it has problems at low levels only, unless you patch it up with IOs.
High level SR + IOs = extreme
High level SR = decent
Low level SR + IOs = decent
Low level SR = terrible
It's just like Dominators were. If you can suffer through the first 35 levels or so, you get rewarded. But for some people, those early levels aren't any fun and not worth the effort.
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The part of your communication that "broke down" regarding this thread was that you set up your points in such a way that they were to be taken separately rather than combined. Meaning that you made it appear that SR without IOs and SR at low levels were both underperforming, rather than just SR at low levels without IOs was underperforming.
The reasoning for this is because you set your points up separately (reasons SR underperforms: 1) low levels 2) without IOs). If you had said "SR underperforms at low levels without IOs", then you wouldn't have this issue.
It was a clarity problem.
Main Hero : Annilixxion -- Lv50 Blaster
Main Villain : Menkaura -- Lv41 Mastermind
@Laxx
"You will bend to my will, with or without your precious sanity." --Dragon Mage
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Merc/ suffers from just being slightly off in a few places. A trash lvl 18 Power selection that pales in comparison to the must haves from other sets just adds to the unfocused pets that would be greatly helped by a standardized range and by a 3rd Tier One pet that would play his role instead of being the healer that charges in and brawls or is at least the closest to the fight. Why doesn't someone hand this "medic" a gun with longer range but lower damage????
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It's been a while since I check Medic's range but I think his shooting range is at 70' while the other two soldiers are at 80'. This makes him stand a bit closer to the mob than all other soldiers. Getting rid of his Brawl does help a lot.
Medic also draws more aggro because of his aoe knockback grenade. He needs to run a bit closer to throw that I think.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
My .02. IMO, there are not a lot of 'huge' gaps among powersets, but some do stand out:
Mercenaries - controls need to be more reliable and more frequent. Medic needs to have more range on his powers to avoid the suicide run.
Martial arts - the secondary effects try to do too much and do not compliment each other. Cobra Strike needs to be swapped with Crippling Axe Kick so that an earlier attack chain is viable without dipping into pools.
53 Bots/FF/Mace Mastermind | 53 NRG/FF/Electricity Defender | 50 Time/Dual Pistols/Soul Defender | 50 Demons/FF/Mace Mastermind | 51 Necro/Dark/Soul Mastermind | 50 Thugs/Time/Mace Mastermind | 50 Ice/Ice/Arctic Tanker | 50 Plant/Rad/Earth Controller | 50 Illusion/Trick Arrow Controller | 50 Gravity/Force Field Controller
Yes, I like Force Fields.
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I'll say only two...
Electric Armor
Gravity Control
Electric Armor is cool, great and fun, no worries from Sappers! However, any mob/mob group that does Smashing and/or Lethal damage...and well...you're going to want Aid Self...from my experience at least (my Elec/Elec Brute is lvl 50). I'm not sure what I'd like to drop from the powerset...maybe Conserve Power (although I have it on my brute just cause)...a heal that's in the set would be nice.
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I agree it seems that the /SR arguement here is drowning out the real under performers. Electric Armor needs tweaking and some form of regen or +HP or Heal or heck all 3 what ever it takes to tweak it. A lot of hero chatter here though, just trying to state that what is broke for heroes is not broke for villains in somes cases.
Many complain about fire aura, but on redside the one AT that you can make for prime time farming and PvPing and are OP at both is a SS/fire brute and seem to be great in pvE content. But blue side is different, again I have no issue with firey aura at all, I can see why some folks would be annoyed though with some aspects.. (No fear, KB , immobilize (out of BuRN) protection etc..
Gravity does need animation times reduced.. but doing that would make grav/doms even crazier with damage wouldn't it? Given the new buff? Again hero side only perspective i can see but I am trying to stay in view of BOTH red and blue side. [u]I am all in favor[u] of gravity animations being tweaked however 
I also agree Devices needs help too its way to slow and hard to use in fast pace teams... hold on BRB setting mines.. <.<
Post Comic book Fan Films that ROCK!
Fight my brute
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I've a feeling at least half the answers in this thread are going to be completely wrong. So unless four or five people list the same set, take it with a grain of salt.
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well im going to cry now....psi blasters have been mentioned over and over again. waaaaah. 
i just got my psi blaster to lvl 30
siggh. guess ill delete it and remake a new one.
so is it just psi blast the primary thats bad?
or is mental manipulation as a secondary ok?
and now im feeling very depressed about my electric armor brute....
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Are you actually enjoying your Psi Blast character? Then why care what other people are saying?
And as far as Electric Armor for Brutes goes, it was once the unquestioned king of Brute Secondaries. What changed? Power Creep. Paritcularly how much more IOs help Willpower and Super Reflexes than they do an all-resist set. Electric Armor is still just as valuable as it was back when it was FotM, but there are other even stronger options. Now, Stalker Electric Armor... yeah, that's a heap of ugly. And while I'm on the subject of Electricity... Electric Blast could definitely use a little something extra.
@Eisenzahn
GW2 - Melchior.2135
AIM - Euroclydon23
Email - scorpany@yahoo.com or <sameasmyAIM>@aol.com (for the sheer novelty of an almost 20 year old email address that hasn't been overwhelmed by spambots yet)
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Super Strength, Stone Armor and Kinetics are your honorable mentions?! None of these should even be mentioned in an "underperforming" conversation. I am mad at myself for bringing them up again.
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All of them have the "Overpowered Tier 9 propping up an otherwise kind of crappy set" feel to me... the same feel that Psionic Assault just gave up with the nerf of PSW and buff of practically everything else.
Some players like having one really spectacular trick to rely on almost exclusively, and others like having a mix of good powers available from the very beginning. To that second set of players, yeah, there's no question that SS and Stone Armor suck. Kin, to a lesser degree. I can imagine playing a Kin without Fulcrum Shift a lot easier than a SS without Foot Stomp or Stoner without Granite...
@Eisenzahn
GW2 - Melchior.2135
AIM - Euroclydon23
Email - scorpany@yahoo.com or <sameasmyAIM>@aol.com (for the sheer novelty of an almost 20 year old email address that hasn't been overwhelmed by spambots yet)
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Super Strength, Stone Armor and Kinetics are your honorable mentions?! None of these should even be mentioned in an "underperforming" conversation. I am mad at myself for bringing them up again.
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All of them have the "Overpowered Tier 9 propping up an otherwise kind of crappy set" feel to me... the same feel that Psionic Assault just gave up with the nerf of PSW and buff of practically everything else.
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I would have to agree with this assessment of the power sets, except that Kinetics actually has some respectable powers other than just Fulcrum Shift. Stone Armor really is rather mediocre without Granite Armor and Super Strength suffers from having Rage (look at all of the attack powers from a DPA standpoint, you'll be amazed that only KO Blow is even remotely decent).
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Super Strength, Stone Armor and Kinetics are your honorable mentions?! None of these should even be mentioned in an "underperforming" conversation. I am mad at myself for bringing them up again.
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All of them have the "Overpowered Tier 9 propping up an otherwise kind of crappy set" feel to me... the same feel that Psionic Assault just gave up with the nerf of PSW and buff of practically everything else.
Some players like having one really spectacular trick to rely on almost exclusively, and others like having a mix of good powers available from the very beginning. To that second set of players, yeah, there's no question that SS and Stone Armor suck. Kin, to a lesser degree. I can imagine playing a Kin without Fulcrum Shift a lot easier than a SS without Foot Stomp or Stoner without Granite...
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Sorry but saying that you would not like to play SuperStrenght without FootStomp does not mean that the 8 other powers in the set suck and are underperforming!
Holy mother Batman! Are you trying to tell us that KO Blow, a high dmg attack with knockup and a mag 3 hold sucks?
Are you telling us that Rage sucks?
Are you telling us that Hurl, a decent damage with -fly component sucks?
Seriously, there are like no powers that really are plain bad in SS. They all can be serviceable and the Set IO slot opportunities make them even more interesting.
Let's just agree to disagree i guess because i like SS very much and do not feel underpowered or gimped one notch. And Footstomp is great but i still liked playing SS pre-38 with my tanker. Its just icing on the cake.
Other players will explain to you why Kinetics overall is great... Im tired typing.
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
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All of them have the "Overpowered Tier 9 propping up an otherwise kind of crappy set" feel to me... the same feel that Psionic Assault just gave up with the nerf of PSW and buff of practically everything else.
Some players like having one really spectacular trick to rely on almost exclusively, and others like having a mix of good powers available from the very beginning. To that second set of players, yeah, there's no question that SS and Stone Armor suck. Kin, to a lesser degree. I can imagine playing a Kin without Fulcrum Shift a lot easier than a SS without Foot Stomp or Stoner without Granite...
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Sorry but saying that you would not like to play SuperStrenght without FootStomp does not mean that the 8 other powers in the set suck and are underperforming!
Holy mother Batman! Are you trying to tell us that KO Blow, a high dmg attack with knockup and a mag 3 hold sucks?
Are you telling us that Rage sucks?
Are you telling us that Hurl, a decent damage with -fly component sucks?
Seriously, there are like no powers that really are plain bad in SS. They all can be serviceable and the Set IO slot opportunities make them even more interesting.
Let's just agree to disagree i guess because i like SS very much and do not feel underpowered or gimped one notch. And Footstomp is great but i still liked playing SS pre-38 with my tanker. Its just icing on the cake.
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First off, try imagining the set without Rage, with Scrapper numbers (because that's what I'm used to dealing with, honestly) and then look at the numbers. (We get Scrapper numbers from a Tanker set by multiplying the damage by 1.125/.8 = 1.40625)
Jab: 1.32 sec animation, 42.61 damage, 32.28 DPA
Punch: 1.452 sec animation, 62.58 damage, 43.01 DPA
Haymaker: 1.716 sec animation, 102.66 damage, 59.83 DPA
KO Blow: 2.376 sec animation, 222.75 damage, 93.75 DPA
Hurl: 2.64 sec animation, 102.66 damage, 38.89 DPA
Foot Stomp: 2.244 sec animation, 88.88 damage, 39.61 DPA
Now, I can tell you, from repeated experience calculating DPS and comparing DPA on the Scrapper forums, all of those numbers are painfully low. In general, the first 2 tiers of an attack set are at least 45-55 DPA. The next two attacks are almost always 80 DPA or higher. KO Blow does an admirable job of making the rest of the set decent, but it's the only one that has even remotely decent damage for its activation time only it's on twice the recharge because it's so much damage in a single attack and has a hold attached to it. The only reason that the set is even remotely competitive is because Rage is crazily powerful.
It's not Footstomp that's the real powerhouse that makes the entire set even remotely balanced, and I don't really think that's what Eizen was trying to say. The "awesome tier 9" issue is simply that the entire set would suck if a single incredible power in the set wasn't there. Stone Armor (without Granite) and Super Strength (without Rage) would both be pretty mediocre, if not sub par. Personally, I see that as a problem. Others don't. But it doesn't change the fact that both sets suffer from an inordinate concentration of their effectiveness within a single power.
Actually, as I recall SS numbers are across the board almost identical to similar powers in the other tanker melee sets. Having Rage instead of BU makes SS do BETTER damage than the other sets.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
And creative players can make the so-called underperforming powers performing better by slotting set IOs.
My Invul/SS tanker has 3 Acc/Dmg/Rch ( mixed sets ) and 1 Touch of Death Negative Dmg, 1 Perfect Zinger Psi Dmg and 1 Mako Lethal slotted into Jab ,Punch and Haymaker. With Rage going on, Accuracy is less relevant and they do hit consistently and apply mixed types of dmg. These are fast recharging attacks, i just leave jab on Autofire and can cycle it with Punch and Haymaker like forever. I throw a KO bLow here and there when its available and Footstomp weakens everything that is around me.
SS definetely can get the job done. Maybe it cant compare to scrappers but it sure isnt in any worst shape than other tanker secondaries. Is Rage necessary to leverage the whole thing? Maybe so but again, i rarely even hit Rage when im just soloing. I do not really need it unless fighting very tough enemies or ones with high defenses like Rikti Drones.
YMMV i guess but i am very happy with my character and he is a blast to play.
Edit: To be more clear, all my three attacks have 3 procs in them, so its 9 procs that are cycling kinda fast since Jab and Punch are up very quick ( I have Hasten also which make the whole even faster when needed ).
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
I never see anyone with Energy Aura and I don't think I've seen it mentioned much here (although I could have missed it). Is that for some reason other than its performance or is it just so bad everyone forgets it exists?
edit: Oops, typed melee and meant aura.
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If you say so.
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Gotta agree here Dispari. In the lowlevels ( 1-22 ), all scrappers ( exception for those who use DA and Parry ) are not much tough. They are poorly slotted, resists are low, heals recharge slowly and defenses are low as well.
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Of my 6 level 50s, 5 of them are melee characters. I've played every single defense set in the game to at least 30. I have more than 26 characters, over half of which are melee characters. My severe altitis means I've also deleted probably two dozen more characters, most of whom were probably melee. I know what a low-level character feels like. And I know that while a lowbie's experience may not be the best, it's still possible to put up with the enemies you fight. A Tank may not be able to tank at low levels, but he should be able to stand up to two or three even-level foes.
I've run WP to 21 without a single toggle, because the +HP/RES and regen bonuses were sufficient. Low level enemies aren't very strong. Regen, with only Fast Healing and Reconstruction, runs okay at low levels. I had no trouble running Shield to 50. It's essentially the same as SR at low levels but has LESS defense. The fact that it gains +HP/RES at 4 was what made it so much more playable than SR. In fact, the only other set I had issues with at low levels was Ninjitsu, which is unsurprisingly built a lot like SR, until the heal comes at 20. But the Stalker-style and being able to eliminate foes and placate them eased the pain.
So when I've tried to play SR (on different ATs, with different primaries, on separate occasions) and a single foe can drop me to negative DEF values when the ONLY means of mitigation I have to begin with is DEF, and I have trouble, I tend to believe there's more to it than I don't know how to play the game. I know low level characters don't have an easy ride all the time, but SR is the worst I've experienced.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Super Strength, Stone Armor and Kinetics are your honorable mentions?! None of these should even be mentioned in an "underperforming" conversation. I am mad at myself for bringing them up again.
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All of them have the "Overpowered Tier 9 propping up an otherwise kind of crappy set" feel to me... the same feel that Psionic Assault just gave up with the nerf of PSW and buff of practically everything else.
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I would have to agree with this assessment of the power sets, except that Kinetics actually has some respectable powers other than just Fulcrum Shift. Stone Armor really is rather mediocre without Granite Armor and Super Strength suffers from having Rage (look at all of the attack powers from a DPA standpoint, you'll be amazed that only KO Blow is even remotely decent).
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I guess where we differ is that I do not mind if a set has to get to its last power or requires constant use of a core power to be balanced or performing near average so long as that power is made of pure Awesome and is available consistently without dragging the character (Psi Assault getting PSW at 38 pre-set change or Kinetics getting Transference and Fulcrum Shift as the last two powers). Just as long as it gets there, or starts off really strong and only has filler powers at the back end, it works for me. Regen pre-MoG change could be an example of this. Everything after Integration was arguably optional, even though some were preferred (Instant Healing).
We can just agree to disagree in regards to Stone Armor. My experience may not mean much, but it tends to hold its own for me so long as I am not trying to do corner-case missions.
Super Strength for Scrappers might need some tweaking to be comparable to the other sets, but Rage seems to be a core power for the set like mez protection is for mitigation sets. iF Rage was just a different name for Build-Up in the set, I would agree wholeheartedly that SS needed love. It does not surprise me that the set would look mediocre without it because of how Rage works. In the interest of full disclosure, I have not tried to peg out and research my SS characters the way I have with some of my Scrappers, but I have never felt like I was hurting for damage while playing them.
Seems like we agree that Kinetics probably did not belong on the list. It could definitely fit the bill for late-bloomer, though.
11 months of all-nighters, messy feeding sessions, bath fighting and realizing just how good my son's lungs work, and I am still convinced he is the crowning accomplishment in my life. What in the blue HFIL is wrong with me?
Stone Armor for Tanks: Survivability is thrown around like confetti hero side, and Stoners basically take crippling buff in exchange guaranteed survivability. Considering how frequently the extra survivability is overkill, I feel sorry for the non-irl stoners.
Mind Control: The lack of an AoE immobolize/stun means it's pain to set domination for AoE attacks. Furthermore when purple out your mind troll, you can stop groups every minute with Total Domination and Mass Confusion. Fire Control on the other hand can stop groups nearly as well with Flashfire and cages about every 45 seconds using just SO's. Mind Control really just seems to suffer in the post-io world.
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For some reason, Swoop is also qualified as an aoe according to real numbers to boot (...I'm confused at this).
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Gauntlet.
Your other observations are riddled with misunderstandings. Pain Dom isnt as good as Empathy at some thing because the ATs that get Pain Dom are different from the ATs that get Empathy. All the direct comparisons you've made suffer from this. Bane doesn't do as much damage as X, but has other advantages. For example, Widows single target, single attack burst damage is nothing compared to a bane's Executioner's Strike. Some folks say DPS is king. I say that's a very limited view. Not all missions are either AVs or hordes of exploitable hami mitos.
EDIT: (On an unrelated note, the idea of hordes of people with level 50 characters who have never fought anything with them but mitos that CANNOT ATTACK BACK is frightening to me.)
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.