Most Underperforming Powersets.

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Really? Super Reflexes is underperforming? I know it's personal opinion but two posters noted this set. I'm a bit confused. :/

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Me to I'm confused too, I have 6 lvl 50 Scrappers 2 of them are /SR and they are not weak at all they are 2 of my best. I don't see how anyone could say /SR under underperforming when you now have Shield Defense. Shield Defense as lower Defense number and as lower Resistance to Defense of Debuff. Two big things a Defense set likes to have high.

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I'd have to agree with this. SR doesn't underperform by any stretch. You can even make the argument that SR paired with one of the sword primaries is almost overpowered. Parry or divine avalanche can cap you for melee/lethal with just SOs. That's crazy good.

I've had a lot easier time leveling up a SR than I had my shield characters due to lower defense values for shield, and less defense debuff resistance.

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I'll mention a couple things about game design rather than under-performing powersets.

1. The mission objectives usually don't require players to be defensive. This creates problems for power sets that need to setup, for example devices, traps and powers like force bubble. And the game doesn't present many difficult situations where players should use delaying powers like detention or aoe detention. The difficult contents in the game tend to be AVs, who are usually not susceptible to the tricks.

2. There is an emphasis of IO on defense bonus compared to resistance. This results in defense powersets having high performance after IO slotting, while resistance sets (like electrical armor which has no healing) seem to be underperforming.

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Fire Blast (useless secondary effect)

Willpower (too balanced)

Broadsword (cone attack comes too early)

Dark Miasma (all the powers are weak except Black Hole, which I keep on auto-fire)

Illusion Control (not all the Phantom Army guys are the same size)

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Virtue
Angel Witch II - Chord of Souls - Storm Witch II - Princess of the Dawn - Standing Horse - Witch of Xymox
Silent Scream - Shadow Witch II - Liquid Serenade - Nebulous Dawn - Ghost Witch II -Xiberia

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I think this thread should be considered a great tribute to the devs and their continuous work in striving for balance. If these sets are considered the "worst" or "most underperforming" or "least potential" that's pretty damn good. These sets can all tear it up

Like others have already analogized we're differentiating between 9.2s and 9.7s and not 2s and 3s to 9s. "Bad" isn't really "bad" in this game

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This is exactly how I'm feeling about this.

Also, note to certain other posters- look, you don't need to have thinly-veiled insults to make a good point! Wow!
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Some more notes to add aboot my last post:
Conserve Power- I'm sure it's good, but... Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who slots a few Endurance Reduction enhancements and they're more than enough endurance management when you add Power Sink to em. Plus, EndRedux enhancements don't have a ten-minute cooldown. Anyway, enough bashing of that one. It'd be good in any other powerset.

Super Reflexes- I'll admit, my highest SR character is a Brute, not a Scrapper. And also only level 30. But I have this weird belief that a set should be playable for its full career, and when I combine that with "protection should protect in more than one way" I get kind of miffed.

Shield Defense- I quite like it on Tankers. It's not the best, but it's pretty good. I don't understand the comparisons to SR, because it is a Defense set in the same way that Willpower is a Regen set. Sure, that's the primary mitigator, but it's not the *only* one.
But on Brutes and Scrappers, Shield Defense's other mitigators are really kind of sad, yeah.


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Like others have already analogized we're differentiating between 9.2s and 9.7s and not 2s and 3s to 9s. "Bad" isn't really "bad" in this game

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Fire Blast (useless secondary effect)

Willpower (too balanced)

Broadsword (cone attack comes too early)

Dark Miasma (all the powers are weak except Black Hole, which I keep on auto-fire)

Illusion Control (not all the Phantom Army guys are the same size)

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Hmm. I was going to say people were wrong about the electric blasts but they are now saying to try it with something other than /elec. They might be right about that. A Friend has a Electric/Energy laster. I've not heard him complain but I know he feels underpreforming to his fire/fire blaster

I have a Psi/Psi Blaster and I'm not sure how I feel abou tit. I like the telekenetic powers visually and I think that may be swaying my decisions as to how goot the numbers are or aren't

I agree that Devices is veey Lackluster.

I sorta Agree with Fire Armor although I'm trying to make it work on a couple characters. On My Tank I don't feel very Tankish.

As for Gravity Control. I have a Grav/Psi dominator. I used to love juggleing enemies with all of his pwoers. He was never an AoE control type though. I would genreally pick one enemy and make his life hell. The higher he got in level the less I liked him. I have fond memories of him but I've not logged him in for around 450 days now. That might say something about Gravity Control. Of course maybe I should try him with the supposed buff to dominators. Expect. He's not been logged in for 450 days and I don't want to break that record

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I think this thread should be considered a great tribute to the devs and their continuous work in striving for balance. If these sets are considered the "worst" or "most underperforming" or "least potential" that's pretty damn good. These sets can all tear it up

Like others have already analogized we're differentiating between 9.2s and 9.7s and not 2s and 3s to 9s. "Bad" isn't really "bad" in this game

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There are very few sets any more than flirt with being unplayable. Most of the sets mentioned here are merely lower levels of great than other options. (MA for scrappers, for example) They aren't horrid.

Gravity Control for Dominators and Electric Armor for Stalkers come really close, though.

Gravity for dominators--at least controllers get some good early damage as a trade-off for Gravity's weak early control. On a dominator, you get a bunch of attacks that all pale compared to the attacks you already get in your secondary. So in exchange for weak early control you get...nothing, really.

Electric armor for stalkers with the lower resist caps and lower hp compared to brutes is pretty bad. Painful unless facing all energy damage and not great even there. And stalkers aren't super end heavy to need all that +recovery.

These sets are still playable, if you're pretty good or really patient, but compared to pretty much any other option you could have taken, you're significantly worse off.

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Gravity
Elec Blast
Ice Manipulation
Devices

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VIRTUE
Agahnim- Elec/Ice Blaster

"Elec/Ice. Nice. Holy <@*&$@#!> =) You're like the CoH equivalent of those bdsm people who hang from the ceiling on hooks!"
-Plasmar

Agahnim Dragmire- Warshade

"(You spin space webs. =D)"
-Paladin

LOL @ some of the answers in this thread.

SR? LOL, underperforming...right.

Icy Assault? LOL again.

Thermal outperforms Sonic? WRONG, try again.

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Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.

Electric Blast and Fire Armor aren't the sort of sets that go equally well with every option, in my opinion. I have an elec/elec endurance drain blaster, and while I'm reasonably happy with it, I don't think I would be with most of the other secondaries. Would not ever pick elec for anything but an end drain build.

Every Fire Armor guide I remember reading pretty much said you needed the Fighting pool to survive. Does not appeal to me. I skipped it, and though I had taken all of the defenses in the primary, my fire tank was pretty squishy, to the point of logging in an invuln tank many levels lower and SKing up in order to tank for a group. I think Fire is a specialty powerset that either requires a *lot* of care and feeding to stand with other tanks, or is better geared towards a secondary tank role. Is it underperforming or just different?

Martial Arts really needs something, I think, and I hope it's not a change to Cobra Strike. I like the control aspect. In fact, I'd rather add *more* control to MA to keep it unique than up the damage and make it more like the other scrapper sets. For instance, Crippling Axe Kick could animate a bit faster and stun instead of immobilize, so that it's easier to stack stun. As it is, though, it's not really that hot at control, and other primaries I've tried seem vastly more damaging.

tl;dr version: Electric Blast, Fire Armor, and Martial Arts all try to do something extra (end drain, damage, control), to varying degrees of effectiveness for both goals. None of them do it as well as Dark Miasma, though.

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Virtue
Angel Witch II - Chord of Souls - Storm Witch II - Princess of the Dawn - Standing Horse - Witch of Xymox
Silent Scream - Shadow Witch II - Liquid Serenade - Nebulous Dawn - Ghost Witch II -Xiberia

I honestly think Fire just isn't for Tanks. It works well for Brutes and Scrappers because they aren't trying to take hits as much as they are trying to dish it out. Fire armor doesn't really make me think Invulnerable in the sense of The Thing or Superman. Instead I think more along the lines of the Human Torch where you could hurt him pretty easy but you wouldn't want to really have to fight him hand to hand.

While as a concept that could work for a Tank it does fall short with our Tank AT because they don't have the raw damage to back it up. Plus I am thinking Fire is a resist set which makes no sense. In my opinion any Tank that chooses fire armor is already giving up some of his defense. Perhaps add in a +DMG component to any toggle that wreaths you in flame? I mean you are fighting in melee. regardless of what your secondary is that has to hurt a little more than normal. I don't know that you could, or even should, add that in to Brutes or Scrappers.

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Conserve Power is pretty useless on a Brute or a Stalker if you IO them out with +recov bonuses, Endurance reducers and Accolades for max end, though it could help in a tight spot. Without IOs, it does help, but it takes forever to recharge.

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You're giving Conserve Power a really bad rap like most people do, especially considering that the power set has Quickness to increase the uptime. Even in IO builds, it's not uncommon for Conserve Power, with just 2 slots, to be capable of reversing a .6 end/sec deficiency. Conserve Power, considering how much endurance attack strings use, is actually a very powerful, especially when you've got internal +rech to get it back even more often.

What I think most people neglect to see about Electrical Armor is that it's actually better for endurance than Willpower, Regeneration, or any other set out there. It's weaker defensively because it's got more outright utility than any other set brings to the fore. The 2 main resist toggles are actually more effective than similar toggles in other sets (35% to 3 common damage types before AT mods rather than 30%). What makes it "weaker" in most people's eyes is that, beyond the basics (mez protection, 2 survivability toggles), it focuses on attributes that are ignored through normal means of determining balance. It's like saying that Fire Armor and Shield defense are weaker but only because you choose to ignore their offensive additions. Electrical Armor is actually well balanced, if you actually consider the additional endurance capabilities and passive benefits.

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Woah, I just had to make a comment when I saw someone defending Conserve Power. I really like conserve power on my thermal troller. I liked Conserve power on my /ela brute, until i hit lvl 35. When I got power sink, waterfalls of endurance poured upon me. Seriously though, That power has extremely little use.

And I definatly understand your point about lacking some survivability because of the utility you get with all the other little goodies, but its kind of a problem when a brute, isn't really a brute. I'm not sure if you have actually played /ela, but it can get pretty rough. I honestly believe my fire scrapper lasted as long as my brute would. You cant even really IO out an /ela brute for survivability, hence no defense debuff res. If i'm lead brute, I dont need to even use conserve power or power sink, because if someone can rez, i'll be up to full endurance anyway.

Of course I'm exaggerating some of it, but you get the point. I honestly dont think that the bonuses some of the powers get make up the it lack of survivability. I honestly dont.

As for the idea of conserve power.. I posted this in my other thread of /ela, to make it a permanent always on power, granting some +HP's, and +end. Making the HP's enhanceable, and putting the +end at an unenhanceable 10%. Making power sink even that much more effective, and helping our brutes not fall soo fast.

Sorry about the rant.. I just KNOW how /ela actually plays and dont want someone to give the devs the wrong idea

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Force Fields

The Single target buffs themselves have over a 2 second animation time while Cold and Fire shields have half that. Sonic is somewhere between the two extremes. Standing around buffing your team for 40 seconds is not fun and it gets FAR worse on a mastermind. I'd suggest making the Mastermind version an AOE much like Accelerate Metabolism.

The tier 9 is the most utterly skippable tier 9 out there. I'd suggest making it a knockdown aura with an accuracy debuff to it like a mobile Earthquake. Or instead of a -acc give it a -movement speed component but that would make it rather pointless on a team with a controller who spams immobilization much like Ice Control's Ice Slick is.

Detention Field's graphics are too subtle and often times can't been seen properly with all the other bubble graphics going on. Also... it's very situational. How about giving the enemy damage resistance rather than complete intangiblity and increase the recharge on it to compensate.

Force Bolt should be the tier 1 power since that's where a power of it's like should be. Increasing its recharge and reducing its knockback and giving it some damage would make it a solid power. Like a single target Replusion Bomb.

Repulsion field. Never taken it. Can't imagine a use for it. Can't even think of a way to rework it.

Repulsion Bomb. The change to it was great and made it a solid power.

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"The bird of Hermes is my name. Eating my wings to make me tame." -The Ripley Scroll

Check out my Deviant Art: http://darkauthor81.deviantart.com/

I want to contribute to this thread, but perhaps not how you think.

See, I solo a lot. And I don't just mean the way a scrapper will solo with seven other people on the map, I mean, I go into missions with nobody in them but me, and do things by myself. In this regard, I gained a bit of a different perspective on powersets. Specifically, not being good on a large team is something that many powersets might have as a delibenrate design decision.

Consider Energy Melee. I've been teaming with my wife's WP/EM tanker a lot lately, and it's amazing. Would she perform as well offensively on a team of 8? No, probably not. My EM/Nin stalker doesn't do as much on an 8-man team as my fire/fire blaster does, either.

Thanks to the Stalker, and many buff sets, it's pretty clear that even if players don't think so, the developers do design some sets to be great on big teams and some sets to be much more solid soloing. In this regard, I think a lot of the complaints about devices are a bit skewiff. It's a great set for a small team of three or less.

Another element is to consider the leverage of skill. A long time ago - wow, three or more years - a very smart man named Patrick Chapin told me something (he told a few hundred thousand other people who were reading the article, but I like to pretend Pat still loves me). He told me that skill-driven players are drawn to choices. The more choices a playstyle offers you, the more chance you have to utilise your greater skill. You could tell the better players in a tournament environment, because they were playing the complex, slow, intricate methods, while players who were more aware of their lack of skill were playing fast, aggressive, and choice-light, knowing that they had to get a little bit lucky to win the tournament anyway.

This perspective shift is, in my opinion, important. I think this is the area where sets like Devices pay off. Willpower offers very little choice - you toggle on, you take everything (more or less), and you charge into the combat. Electrical Armour, on the other hand, offers a lot of skill-based elements - Power Sink does not just offer you a large slab of endurance, it also can be used as a PBAOE control. Conserve Power offers you constant endurance, meaning that there are situations (lone AV) where that is preferable and other situations (large packs of whatevers) where Power Sink is preferable. Is it necessary? Probably not. But these sets which have a lower baseline of performance compared to simpler, choice-light sets, seem to exist to be used well by exceptional players.

Of these sets, I don't think any of them are bad or unplayable. I have quite a few of them, or helped play or build some of them - I helped a friend craft a flying AR/Dev build that has soft-capped ranged defences, and /dev is instrumental to that build. My electrical blast blaster loves the set he has, because it does its job and later on will let him synergise with other powers. Is it amazing? Not really. Will I outperform others? Probably not, but I'm not sure I'm all that good at the game. I love my energy melee stalker to pieces, and he was made after the ET changes. The set's great for pouring out single target damage on big slow targets. On a co-op team that's hunting bosses or AVs, I've found few characters I have who do so well as him.

Do I think some of these sets could merit buffs? Yes. I definitely think Gravity needs a buff or two - I'm of the firm opinion that Gravity offers pretty much nothing that another set doesn't offer and more. I think that Martial Arts merits some more meaningful controls or something else to differentiate it from just being a worse version of Super Strength. I also think Sonic Resonance for controllers could use some adjustment, that Burn's animation could be faster and that the stalker Resistance armours could use some concept attention.

But a lot of 'bad' sets are just 'not easy.'

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Yeah, I'd agree that there are no utter turkeys in the powersets available. This is the sign of the well-polished mature game we've got now.
We're usually talking about sets being 80% as good as average rather than 50% as good.

I'd also agree there are sets that shine solo, Gravity Control for Controllers being one of them.
All the negatives - slow animation on Propel, teammates getting confused by Dimension Shift, teammates mis-timing AoE damage and buffs with your Wormhole, all of them evaporate when you're on your own.
You're just left with good burst damage, damage per endurance and a lot of visual cool.

Is it a general rule that the better solo sets are often "X that plays like a Y" whereas the true specialists are better on teams?

Gravity - Controller that plays like Blaster
Energy Melee - Tanker that plays like a Scrapper
Devices - Blaster that plays like a Stalker/Controller? they give up some damage for survivability anyway.

All good soloers compared to more specialised Fire Blasters, Stone Tanks and Force Field Defenders.

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I dunno why a few people listed Assault Rifle, especially since it recently got buffed.

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The short:
Assault Rifle
Electric Blast
Psychic Blast (Blasters only)
Devices
Gravity Control
Force Field
Martial Arts
Super Reflexes (low levels only)
Energy Melee (on teams)
Electric Armor
Energy Aura
Merceneries

The long:
Assault Rifle - Lack of ST damage, plus redraw, plus lack of Aim. Unlike Archery, this is a set that's focused far too much on AoE, and has no self-boosts. Comes with probably the least useful nuke ever, with no less than 6 different power ranges, making the powers complicated and weird to use. No steady secondary effect to rely on, and a lot of gimmicky powers.

Electric Blast - Lack of ST damage, with pretty unremarkable AoE. Lack of good secondary effect outside of one power. Weak nuke as a tradeoff for being ranged.

Psychic Blast (Blasters only) - Weakened significantly from Defender version. AoE removed, making it the only Blaster primary that only has one AoE. Combined with Will Domination lacking the damage it needs, also has unremarkable ST damage. Part of its secondary effects, bonus range, were removed with no compensation.

Devices - No regular attacks, no BU. Extremely gimmicky set that is hard to use due to so many powers requiring a long set-up time, being interruptable, or doing no damage.

Gravity Control - Lack of good soft controls and useful powers. Oddly enough, also probably the MOST appropriate set to have -knockback in, but is lacking it. Powers set up in a strange order so as to force the player to take a power that will likely become totally useless eventually, especially for Doms.

Force Field - Only has about 3-4 powers that are actually required, with the rest being fairly pointless. Really bad tier 9, plus long animation times on powers.

Martial Arts - High end usage, with only one AoE. Not very consistent secondary effects. Seems to be like SS designed for Scrappers, which makes it rather weak and uninteresting.

Super Reflexes (low levels only) - While SR is great at high levels and with IOs, it's almost non-existent at low levels where almost all enemies do -DEF and you have no resistance to it. Until mid to high 30s, players with SR have basically nothing at all to fall back on. Even Shield gets +HP.

Energy Melee (on teams) - EM has superior ST damage, but slow attack rate and only one AoE, which is terrible. EM is extremely poor on a team where AoE damage is king, and EM has probably the worst of all melee sets. Longer animation times also means often enemies can die before you execute an attack.

Electric Armor - Medium-high RES, but basically nothing else. Set needs something else to compensate. HP, regen, or DEF would be good. RES alone isn't usually enough to save someone.

Energy Aura - Still not very good even with the changes. Energy Drain's heal needs to be frontloaded to be of any use outside of being surrounded by foes. But low DEF with no HP and very little RES to help is hard to work with.

Merceneries - The least spectacular of MM sets. Weak pets that don't excel at anything in particular. Lower damage than most pets, lower survival than most pets, and less gimmicks. AoE mezzes are useful, but have long recharges and low mag. Pets have varying ranges (which causes problems) and powers that are useless (stealth).

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I dunno why a few people listed Assault Rifle, especially since it recently got buffed.

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I agree. I love my AR/KIN ruptor.

I also think Fire Aura is okay I learned to tank with my tank 8 issue's back. My Fire Tank feels fine, I can see why some would say it is lackluster but I think its just fine because I know how to play with it. Would I like some more enahncements to it? Sure. I would like that more with Electric Armor but my Brute/Scrapper/and Tank with Fire aura performs just fine for me. My EM/Electric brute on the other hand???? <.<

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Post Comic book Fan Films that ROCK!
Fight my brute

Just a note, Elec blast is actually above the norm with blasters as far as ST goes:

Voltaic Sentinel, Charged Bolts and Lightning bolt together do impressive DPE and DPS, rivaling achery's ST.

Its just underperforming in AoE and in that it's effect (end drain) is poorly designed...I mean, why make it a binary effect, when the big power we have for it (Short Circuit) doesnt even do it fully?

It only falls behind when it comes to BURST damage

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Just a note, Elec blast is actually above the norm with blasters as far as ST goes:

Voltaic Sentinel, Charged Bolts and Lightning bolt together do impressive DPE and DPS, rivaling achery's ST.

Its just underperforming in AoE and in that it's effect (end drain) is poorly designed...I mean, why make it a binary effect, when the big power we have for it (Short Circuit) doesnt even do it fully?

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The point is that Archery is actually rather anemic at ST damage. Archery isn't anywhere near impressive at single target damage. The fact that you're comparing Elec's ST damage to Archery's in a favorable light while simultaneously mentioning that it's got none of the substantial AoE capabilities that Archery is packing is demonstrative of how the arguments for Elec underperforming.

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Just a note, Elec blast is actually above the norm with blasters as far as ST goes:

Voltaic Sentinel, Charged Bolts and Lightning bolt together do impressive DPE and DPS, rivaling achery's ST.

Its just underperforming in AoE and in that it's effect (end drain) is poorly designed...I mean, why make it a binary effect, when the big power we have for it (Short Circuit) doesnt even do it fully?

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The point is that Archery is actually rather anemic at ST damage. Archery isn't anywhere near impressive at single target damage. The fact that you're comparing Elec's ST damage to Archery's in a favorable light while simultaneously mentioning that it's got none of the substantial AoE capabilities that Archery is packing is demonstrative of how the arguments for Elec underperforming.

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also its nice to add in VS damage to ST DPS but since the blaster has no control over whether VS is single target DPS asset or a lackluster AoE aggro machine you have to factor that in

leaving Elec/* underperforming again

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Just a note, Elec blast is actually above the norm with blasters as far as ST goes:

Voltaic Sentinel, Charged Bolts and Lightning bolt together do impressive DPE and DPS, rivaling achery's ST.

Its just underperforming in AoE and in that it's effect (end drain) is poorly designed...I mean, why make it a binary effect, when the big power we have for it (Short Circuit) doesnt even do it fully?

It only falls behind when it comes to BURST damage

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Draining works just fine with 2+ drainers on a team. It's just another one of those powers that's not as hot for a soloer. Also, if you have something else to drain with (Transference, Power Sink), it's more worthwhile. Not everything is "for soloists". (Not saying that's how it should be, just that it's how it is.)

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I team with the Repeat Offenders.

I'm only going to stick to heroside, since that's where I play 90% of the time. That being said, here's what I think is weak.

Psi Blast (blasters): For all the reasons already mentioned above.

Devices (blasters): Difficult to use on a team, and lacks damage. Before ED, it used to be a little better, due to the fact that it did better sustained DPS and only lacked the burst damage. Now it has neither.

Gravity Control (controllers): Supposed to trade control ability for damage, but doesn't really do a good job of it. Fire control does better damage and has better controls as well.

Martial Arts (Scrappers): Somewhat weak on damage, long animation times, high endurance costs, and the grab-bag secondary effects all combine to make a sub-par set.

Trick Arrow (Defenders): Lots of damage-enhancing debuffs (-res, -defense, -regen, etc.) but only minor survivability enhancing tools (-to-hit, -damage, -recharge, heals, etc.) and too much of a reliance on soft control.

One special mention goes out to force field. Not because it underperforms as such (the ability to give an 8-man team softcapped defenses to everything at level 22 can hardly be said to be underperforming), but for the fact that besides the 3 shields, and personal forcefield, everything else in the set is pretty much worthless, and in a lot of cases can be actively detrimental to a team.

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I dont see why people complain about Devices. Devices are awesome for a tactician player!

Sure you trade up Build Up but you gain SO MUCH more!

Devices is the only secondary ( for blasters ) that let you "set up" a battlefield beforehand with land mines and caltrops! You can take your time and prepare a REAL ambush.

Targeting Drone: A great power that boosts your accuracy AND perception. All good stuff for blasters.

Taser is a solid Stun that stacks very well with Beanbags or Stunning Arrow.

Web Grenade: Great immob. good vs AVs, great before using location aoes like Ignite!

Sure, the set has some duds or powers that are useful in only a few situations, like Time Bomb. Ive been toying with this one and still cant come up with great uses for it. If only they were giving us a REMOTE Detonator haha. Now thta would rock!

Cloaking Device: A very decent Stealth power that stacks greatly with SS or a stealth IO. No need to waste a power choice in a power pool. It comes with your secondary powerset!

Auto Turret: Decent DPS added to your attacks and it is now mobile! Too bad it doesnt last longer and is so slow to cast...

Overall, Devices is very useful for creative players. And thank god it feels different for a change. So bored of playing powersets that are all looking alike with different colors. Devices are UNIQUE just like Traps are UNIQUE!

Woot!

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I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Voltaire

I'm trying to think...

You know, I think you could - and I'm speaking on an interface level - you could make a time bomb a toggle? You click the power and it sets the bomb, toggle goes on, costs very little to run but costs a lot up front... then it has a duration before it toggles off. When it toggles off, pet dies, power explodes.

I wonder if that would work...

(runs off to PM people who know more than himself)

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