Any punishments of purchasing from RMT?
By
BayBlast,
Posted on: 2009-06-06 11:29 in Player Questions
Well, yeah, it got shot down because it doesn't -legally- have real world value.
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Well, yeah, it got shot down because it doesn't -legally- have real world value.
[/ QUOTE ] I didn't realize the law had anything to do with value. I always figured value was determined by the market.
The IRS realised that taxing video game money would be taxing Monopoly money.
That's another issue- RMTers could be part of a money laundering scheme. Using RMT services may not only get you banned, and possibly having your credit card and identity stolen, but you could end up arrested for aiding criminal activity.
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Well, yeah, it got shot down because it doesn't -legally- have real world value.
[/ QUOTE ] I didn't realize the law had anything to do with value. I always figured value was determined by the market.
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The market isn't a legal one.
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Well, yeah, it got shot down because it doesn't -legally- have real world value.
[/ QUOTE ] I didn't realize the law had anything to do with value. I always figured value was determined by the market.
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The market isn't a legal one.
[/ QUOTE ] Thats fine and all, but that has nothing to do with value.
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Well, yeah, it got shot down because it doesn't -legally- have real world value.
[/ QUOTE ] I didn't realize the law had anything to do with value. I always figured value was determined by the market.
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The market isn't a legal one.
[/ QUOTE ] Thats fine and all, but that has nothing to do with value.
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When it comes to the government, it has everything to do with value.
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The IRS realised that taxing video game money would be taxing Monopoly money.
That's another issue- RMTers could be part of a money laundering scheme. Using RMT services may not only get you banned, and possibly having your credit card and identity stolen, but you could end up arrested for aiding criminal activity.
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A prosecuter would find it next to impossible proving that in court. At least in the US.
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Two words: CONTRACT LAW. The EULA -IS- a legally binding contract.
[/ QUOTE ] Unless I've missed a concluded court case that didn't end in a out-of-court settlement... possibly.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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Two words: CONTRACT LAW. The EULA -IS- a legally binding contract.
[/ QUOTE ] Unless I've missed a concluded court case that didn't end in a out-of-court settlement... possibly.
[/ QUOTE ] An EULA can be legally binding, if it is worded properly.
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Well, yeah, it got shot down because it doesn't -legally- have real world value.
[/ QUOTE ] I didn't realize the law had anything to do with value. I always figured value was determined by the market.
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The market isn't a legal one.
[/ QUOTE ] Thats fine and all, but that has nothing to do with value.
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When it comes to the government, it has everything to do with value.
[/ QUOTE ] So you're saying something can't have a value if the government says so? I wanna make sure I'm understanding you correctly.
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They are using NC/PS's intellectual property without authorization...
[/ QUOTE ]They pay a subscription fee just like anybody else. That gives them the authorization.
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Whoa, careful with that. They pay a subscription fee, but they're only authorized to play the game as long as they do so within the rules. Their amount of money doesn't mean they have total access to do whatever they want. You pay for the privilege to play the game, on the condition that you follow the rules. If you don't follow the rules, you're out of here, and it doesn't matter how much you paid.
[/ QUOTE ] Which is exactly what I said. All I was saying was they have the authorization to use the software, because they paid the subscription. My very next statement explained they would get canceled for abusing that authorization.
ROFL at RMT being run by the mob.
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They are using NC/PS's intellectual property without authorization...
[/ QUOTE ]They pay a subscription fee just like anybody else. That gives them the authorization.
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Whoa, careful with that. They pay a subscription fee, but they're only authorized to play the game as long as they do so within the rules. Their amount of money doesn't mean they have total access to do whatever they want. You pay for the privilege to play the game, on the condition that you follow the rules. If you don't follow the rules, you're out of here, and it doesn't matter how much you paid.
[/ QUOTE ] Which is exactly what I said. All I was saying was they have the authorization to use the software, because they paid the subscription. My very next statement explained they would get canceled for abusing that authorization.
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Actually, Mateo, I think the IP bit referred to the RMT types using the "City of" logos on their site without (obviously) the permission of the IP holder, in this case Paragon Studios/NC Soft. Which, as witness by the EULA/TOS part of the fansite kit, having a subscription to the game does not necessitate having the permission to use the logos/IP.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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They are using NC/PS's intellectual property without authorization...
[/ QUOTE ]They pay a subscription fee just like anybody else. That gives them the authorization.
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Whoa, careful with that. They pay a subscription fee, but they're only authorized to play the game as long as they do so within the rules. Their amount of money doesn't mean they have total access to do whatever they want. You pay for the privilege to play the game, on the condition that you follow the rules. If you don't follow the rules, you're out of here, and it doesn't matter how much you paid.
[/ QUOTE ] Which is exactly what I said. All I was saying was they have the authorization to use the software, because they paid the subscription. My very next statement explained they would get canceled for abusing that authorization.
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Actually, Mateo, I think the IP bit referred to the RMT types using the "City of" logos on their site without (obviously) the permission of the IP holder, in this case Paragon Studios/NC Soft. Which, as witness by the EULA/TOS part of the fansite kit, having a subscription to the game does not necessitate having the permission to use the logos/IP.
[/ QUOTE ] ROFL then I totally interpreted that wrong this whole time. I was including the use of their server as being the property here. DUH MATEO! lol
I'm in agreement about the logos being used to advertise their service as a bad thing. I even mentioned it earlier in the thread.
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Two words: CONTRACT LAW. The EULA -IS- a legally binding contract.
[/ QUOTE ] Unless I've missed a concluded court case that didn't end in a out-of-court settlement... possibly.
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Several. Mythic vs Black Snow, Blizzard vs the makers of BNetD, Blizzard vs Peons4hire to name a few directly MMO-related. Specific terms of an EULA may be ruled unenforceable in court, but EULAs are -not- invalid. The terms that get thrown out would be thrown out in -any- form of contract.
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So you're saying something can't have a value if the government says so? I wanna make sure I'm understanding you correctly.
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No, I'm saying that something can't have government recognized and, thus, taxable value unless the transactions giving it value are legal.
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So you're saying something can't have a value if the government says so? I wanna make sure I'm understanding you correctly.
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No, I'm saying that something can't have government recognized and, thus, taxable value unless the transactions giving it value are legal.
[/ QUOTE ] But wasn't Al Capone convicted of tax evasion because of his illegal businesses(alcohol)?
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So you're saying something can't have a value if the government says so? I wanna make sure I'm understanding you correctly.
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No, I'm saying that something can't have government recognized and, thus, taxable value unless the transactions giving it value are legal.
[/ QUOTE ] But wasn't Al Capone convicted of tax evasion because of his illegal businesses(alcohol)?
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Capone was receiving payment in legal currency. It matters not to the IRS if the source of one's income is a legal enterprise.
Currency, incidentally, is an example of something that only has value because the government says it has value.
Not entirely sure, but I believe there were several laws bent, stretched, and flat-out broken to prosecute him...
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Not entirely sure, but I believe there were several laws bent, stretched, and flat-out broken to prosecute him...
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I think his prosecution was pretty straightforward, unlike more recent ones involving the RICO laws.
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Cool, thanks for indulging my curiosity. I think I'm caught up now.
Guy and Gals,
I think the issue here is that (and before I go on, I talk to Boxxy (the OP, Moldylunchbox) on Pinnbadges all the time, I don't think he asked cause he was thinking of using a RMT) RMT's exist (and PL'ers) cause there is no real will to deal with them, and the reason why is simple, they offer a service that in the end makes money for the game provider.
Examples.
1) Guy needs lots of (Inf,gold,plats,credits,gear WHATEVER) to further his enjoyment of the game he is playing, if he can't get it (for whatever reason) he might cancel his sub, if he has the cash to just buy it, he'll keep playing.
2) Guy wants to play with his friends or level up a new toon but doesn't want to do "the same old content" again, he might quit to try something new (and level up there) or just buy a (whatever) level toon and keep playing.
The gaming company knows this, now you can argue that both the things I just mentioned also lose them customers, but the thing is, every game has this issue now (at least any game that has been around long enough to a) have max level toons and b) (and most important) gotten to the point that the game has a skeleton staff that has more important issues to deal with. So you can run from game to game to avoid it (if you care that is) but you'll figure out soon enough that it's going to be there and either quit playing games altogether or deal with it.
The only revenue that gaming company's have (outside of expansions) is subscriptions, and anything that keeps folks playing is a bonus to them and they know it, and I don't believe from a moment that some of the company are taking part of it behind doors (Sony has stationcash now, so their moving it into the open).
For CoH to stop RMT, they would have to flood the market with cheap IO's so that Inf gained from just doing mish's would be enough to IO out your toon, but I don't see that happening.
Also, do you think that every gaming company has the cash to go after all these company's? they don't. Too many ants and not enough Raid.
Lets face it, if it wasn't for the spam there would be far less uproar over these issues anyways.
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Guy and Gals,
I think the issue here is that (and before I go on, I talk to Boxxy (the OP, Moldylunchbox) on Pinnbadges all the time, I don't think he asked cause he was thinking of using a RMT) RMT's exist (and PL'ers) cause there is no real will to deal with them, and the reason why is simple, they offer a service that in the end makes money for the game provider.
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*CoughcoughBULLS***cough!*
Ah, yes. The old "The devs are really in cahoots with them" tinfoil hat tripe.
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LOL. A friend of mine that works for a big US software company told me that I would not believe the behind the scenes stuff as he put it with the "alledged" gold sellers.
He went on to repeat the standard company is behind it all internet stuff. The only thing that bothered me about it was I have known this guy most of my adult life and he is just a call it as he see's it type guy. 
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Thing is, there's really nothing to prosecute. RMT doesn't break any laws, only EULAs, so accounts could be banned, but thats about it. IIRC the blizzard suit wasn't really about gold trading per se, it was about spam. Keep in mind, that this was against a US firm, so US anti-spam laws would apply. i don't know that the same could be said of a foreign RMT outfit. Odds are they operate from a country with no laws concerning spam.
As far as comparisons with RIAA, MPAA, etc, keep in mind that there are international agreements governing intellectual property. I don't know that there are any such agreements that are related to the issues involved in RMT.
[/ QUOTE ] I'm willing to bet that if RMT gets out of hand governments would get involved by taxing people. The last thing any of us want is our in game currency to have any kind of significant real world value.
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Only trouble is how do you tax criminal activities? RMT sites aren't being run by legitimate businesses.
[/ QUOTE ] I'm not talking about companies like that being taxed. If gold/influence/currency gained significant real world value, we might end up getting taxed for it. A few politicians have thrown the idea around already, but it never went anywhere.