Any punishments of purchasing from RMT?
By
BayBlast,
Posted on: 2009-06-06 11:29 in Player Questions
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11. You may not advertise the intent to or commit the act of buying or selling items for cash or trading items from one server to another.
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The Code of Conduct needs to be updated. Everyone using Wentworths and the Black Market needs to be punished for breaking the above rule otherwise.
@Roderick
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Thing is, there's really nothing to prosecute. RMT doesn't break any laws
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Well, you know, except for all those pesky copyright and trademark laws...
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What trademark does selling in-game money for real world money violate? What copyright?
The RMTers are not selling "Cities of Heroes" using the COH engine, a pirate server, copyrighted characters, etc. They aren't actually *selling* anything but a "service." (You pay us for the time we spent getting these levels/this inf.)
Copyright, trademark, and other IP protection laws don't apply to RMT.
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Thing is, there's really nothing to prosecute. RMT doesn't break any laws
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Well, you know, except for all those pesky copyright and trademark laws...
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What trademark does selling in-game money for real world money violate? What copyright?
The RMTers are not selling "Cities of Heroes" using the COH engine, a pirate server, copyrighted characters, etc. They aren't actually *selling* anything but a "service." (You pay us for the time we spent getting these levels/this inf.)
Copyright, trademark, and other IP protection laws don't apply to RMT.
[/ QUOTE ] Just out of curiosity.. Does it apply to using the CoH name and/or logo on their site to sell their service?
I think it would.
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11. You may not advertise the intent to or commit the act of buying or selling items for cash or trading items from one server to another.
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The Code of Conduct needs to be updated. Everyone using Wentworths and the Black Market needs to be punished for breaking the above rule otherwise.
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Well, sure, if you stretch the rule to ridiculous lengths....
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
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Thing is, there's really nothing to prosecute. RMT doesn't break any laws
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Well, you know, except for all those pesky copyright and trademark laws...
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What trademark does selling in-game money for real world money violate? What copyright?
The RMTers are not selling "Cities of Heroes" using the COH engine, a pirate server, copyrighted characters, etc. They aren't actually *selling* anything but a "service." (You pay us for the time we spent getting these levels/this inf.)
Copyright, trademark, and other IP protection laws don't apply to RMT.
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Sorry, the "selling my time spent getting it" is BS. Time is not a marketable commodity. It is a unit of measurement. When you go buy a pound of hamburger, you're not buying a pound, you're buying hamburger. Also, if the "merchandise" is transferred as part of the transaction, it is part of what is being sold.
So, glad to see you're gullible enough to think that these flimsy excuses would actually fly, but they don't.
They are using NC/PS's intellectual property without authorization and even explicitly going against the terms of use to run a business. If you can't see how that's violating the laws, you're blind. Willfully or otherwise.
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
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Thing is, there's really nothing to prosecute. RMT doesn't break any laws
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Well, you know, except for all those pesky copyright and trademark laws...
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What trademark does selling in-game money for real world money violate? What copyright?
The RMTers are not selling "Cities of Heroes" using the COH engine, a pirate server, copyrighted characters, etc. They aren't actually *selling* anything but a "service." (You pay us for the time we spent getting these levels/this inf.)
Copyright, trademark, and other IP protection laws don't apply to RMT.
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Sorry, the "selling my time spent getting it" is BS. Time is not a marketable commodity. It is a unit of measurement. When you go buy a pound of hamburger, you're not buying a pound, you're buying hamburger. Also, if the "merchandise" is transferred as part of the transaction, it is part of what is being sold.
So, glad to see you're gullible enough to think that these flimsy excuses would actually fly, but they don't.
[/ QUOTE ] Like he said, you are buying a service. When you go get your car fixed, at least half the bill is for labor. The labor price is usually based on time spent (or a flat rate based on the average time spent for that task).
In this case, there isn't even any actual "merchandise". Anybody can farm a mission or use the market to earn money. Anybody can reach lvl 50. But buying money and/or powerleveling saves people TIME, which is what makes it a service. They spent time doing it for you.
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They are using NC/PS's intellectual property without authorization...
[/ QUOTE ]They pay a subscription fee just like anybody else. That gives them the authorization.
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...and even explicitly going against the terms of use to run a business. If you can't see how that's violating the laws, you're blind. Willfully or otherwise.
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Like you said, they break the ToS. All that does is give CoH the right to ban them without reimbursement because they broke the rules.. not any law.
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Copyright, trademark, and other IP protection laws don't apply to RMT.
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Well, at the very least, the sites I've looked at (yes, I've looked at these sites, mainly to see who the enemy is) use City of Heroes logos, which is blatantly illegal.
Also, putting on my lawyer hat, I'm thinking that a case could be made that:
- "Influence" is an in-game property, and as such, is wholly owned by NCsoft. (Check the EULA; you might think that your influence is "yours," but it's not. NCsoft lays claim to everything on the servers, including your character and all of their possessions.)
- By selling "influence," RMTers are essentially offering to sell something that someone else--NCsoft--is the rightful owner of.
It would be kind of like putting an ad in the paper for your buddy's car without his consent. At the very least, it's fraud, even if he gave you a spare key a while back and you had it within your means to actually deliver the goods.
Also, if I had an opportunity to go after them, I'd pile on the fact that in the EULA it states, "Members whose Accounts have been terminated by NC Interactive may not access the Service in any manner or for any reason, including through any other Account, without the express written permission of NC Interactive." [Section 4(i)] I would argue that once an RMTer has been banned, if they access the service again, they are guilty of violating the Federal Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. It might be a bit of a stretch, but if the lawyer is good enough, I think it's doable. 
Of course, all of this is moot, because it's all based on U.S. law. In the countries where RMTers operate out of, it's debatable whether there are any laws against this kind of stuff, and even if they are, whether they're enforced. I seriously doubt that China will be extraditing anyone anytime soon for breaking U.S. law from within their borders, especially over something as trivial as this, especially with IP violation is, to be blunt, a sizable portion of their economy.
But yeah, if they were in the U.S., there'd be several ways to go after them criminally as well as civilly.
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They are using NC/PS's intellectual property without authorization...
[/ QUOTE ]They pay a subscription fee just like anybody else. That gives them the authorization.
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This is not true for two reasons.
First, they are using the service in a manner which is explicitly spelled out as being unauthorized. There was a CFAA case a few years back where an employee of one company e-mailed a client list to a competitor, then went to work for them later. He argued that he didn't violate the CFAA because as an employee, he was authorized to use the computer system. The courts smacked him down saying no, that as soon as he started using the computers for an activity that was disloyal to the company he worked for, he was no longer doing so in an authorized manner. In short, your subscription fee does not give you the right to do whatever you want until you get banned.
Second, the authorized uses of NCsoft's IP is spelled out in the EULA, and one of those conditions is that you will not use it for any commercial purpose without their written consent. As soon as you do, you are violating copyright and/or trademark law, depending on what you're doing with NCsoft's IP.
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
RMT's are dangerous.
Theres so many reasons to avoid them: anyone that uses them should fear for their identity.
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
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- By selling "influence," RMTers are essentially offering to sell something that someone else--NCsoft--is the rightful owner of.
It would be kind of like putting an ad in the paper for your buddy's car without his consent. At the very least, it's fraud, even if he gave you a spare key a while back and you had it within your means to actually deliver the goods.
[/ QUOTE ] Curious again..
Wouldn't the fraud charge be issued by the government, not by a person?
And I'm not sure my buddy would be able to sue me because I put his car up for sale, but the person that I accepted money from could.
If anybody has a case against RMT'ers, it wouldn't be CoH, but the consumers who didn't get what they paid for, right?
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Curious again..
Wouldn't the fraud charge be issued by the government, not by a person?
And I'm not sure my buddy would be able to sue me because I put his car up for sale, but the person that I accepted money from would.
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Yes, if an RMTer were operating in the U.S., they could be brought up on criminal charges, which would be prosecuted by the government. Whether it's worth a DA's time and effort would be up to the DA. (Prosecuting rapes and murders might be a little higher on his list...) They'd likely face a civil lawsuit as well.
Your buddy could sue you if you actually tried to follow through on the sale and also report you to the police and testify against you to try to have you thrown in jail.
Whatever way--civil, criminal, or both--NCsoft went in this little analogy, the RMTer would be put out of business.
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
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Sorry, the "selling my time spent getting it" is BS. Time is not a marketable commodity. It is a unit of measurement.
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I work. I don't do piecework, selling individual items. I get paid for being at work 40 or more hours a week. Nothing that I do produces a physical object I can point to and say "I made that." I can, however, show the time I've spent talking to people, helping them, fixing things or whatnot.
I am getting paid for my time.
Ever get a car repaired, something installed in the house, etc? You're paying, among other things, for "labor" - the time for someone else to be there to perform a service.
Ever rent a movie?
Selling time spent is not BS.
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They are using NC/PS's intellectual property without authorization...
[/ QUOTE ]They pay a subscription fee just like anybody else. That gives them the authorization.
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Whoa, careful with that. They pay a subscription fee, but they're only authorized to play the game as long as they do so within the rules. Their amount of money doesn't mean they have total access to do whatever they want. You pay for the privilege to play the game, on the condition that you follow the rules. If you don't follow the rules, you're out of here, and it doesn't matter how much you paid.
Buying a DVD gives you the rights to watch a movie. It doesn't give you the right to make copies and sell them for personal profit. Once you step outside of the rules, it doesn't matter whether you stole it or paid for it. And paying for a DVD doesn't give you the rights to redistribute it for a profit.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Thing is, there's really nothing to prosecute. RMT doesn't break any laws
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Well, you know, except for all those pesky copyright and trademark laws...
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What trademark does selling in-game money for real world money violate? What copyright?
The RMTers are not selling "Cities of Heroes" using the COH engine, a pirate server, copyrighted characters, etc. They aren't actually *selling* anything but a "service." (You pay us for the time we spent getting these levels/this inf.)
Copyright, trademark, and other IP protection laws don't apply to RMT.
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Sorry, the "selling my time spent getting it" is BS. Time is not a marketable commodity. It is a unit of measurement. When you go buy a pound of hamburger, you're not buying a pound, you're buying hamburger. Also, if the "merchandise" is transferred as part of the transaction, it is part of what is being sold.
So, glad to see you're gullible enough to think that these flimsy excuses would actually fly, but they don't.
[/ QUOTE ] Like he said, you are buying a service. When you go get your car fixed, at least half the bill is for labor. The labor price is usually based on time spent (or a flat rate based on the average time spent for that task).
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Point is, however, that labor isn't being performed by a mechanic in a building he rented where he was explicitly told he could not run a business out of the building, nor is the labor being performed using tools he borrowed from his neighbor who stipulated that they couldn't be used for his business. The "service" part of the transaction is being performed on someone else's private property against the terms set forth by the owner of that property. I'd go as far as to say an argument could be made at this point for trespassing.
Also note when you go to a mechanic for repairs, you're also paying for the parts used in the repairs.
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In this case, there isn't even any actual "merchandise". Anybody can farm a mission or use the market to earn money. Anybody can reach lvl 50. But buying money and/or powerleveling saves people TIME, which is what makes it a service. They spent time doing it for you.
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The money is the merchandise. Just because you can earn it yourself doesn't change that. I can go to the river and catch fish myself, but that doesn't mean when I buy fish at the store it's not "merchandise".
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They are using NC/PS's intellectual property without authorization...
[/ QUOTE ]They pay a subscription fee just like anybody else. That gives them the authorization.
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It gives them authorization to play the game. It does -NOT- give them authorization to farm currency ( usually abusing exploits to do so ) for the purpose of selling for cash. In fact, they are specifically prohibited from doing that before they even enter the door.
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...and even explicitly going against the terms of use to run a business. If you can't see how that's violating the laws, you're blind. Willfully or otherwise.
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Like you said, they break the ToS. All that does is give CoH the right to ban them without reimbursement because they broke the rules.. not any law.
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The TOU is setting forth how they are being licensed to use the intellectual property, as they are permitted to do under copyright law. Violating those terms is violating copyright law. Now, you can question whether the terms are valid all you want, but if they are held as valid in court, then they are in violation of copyright law as well as the TOU.
From the trademark aspect, they're even MORE explicitly in violation. They're using NC/PS's material for profit, and can -easily- be shown to be interfering with PS's legitimate customer base.
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
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Well, at the very least, the sites I've looked at (yes, I've looked at these sites, mainly to see who the enemy is) use City of Heroes logos, which is blatantly illegal.
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How many COH fansites use the logo? How many other places might, as well? How many of those went out and got NC's permission ahead of time?
They aren't marketing COH, or the logo, as *theirs.* Not in the least. Nor are they claiming to be in any way associated with COH, NCSoft, or Paragon Studios. They are saying, simply, "If you play this, we can provide you with INF for a price, saving you time and effort."
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- "Influence" is an in-game property, and as such, is wholly owned by NCsoft. (Check the EULA; you might think that your influence is "yours," but it's not. NCsoft lays claim to everything on the servers, including your character and all of their possessions.)
- By selling "influence," RMTers are essentially offering to sell something that someone else--NCsoft--is the rightful owner of.
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But they aren't selling influence. They're selling the time they spent (or that you don't have to spend) to *get* that amount of influence. They're not claiming the influence is "theirs" in any way shape or form.
Yes, it feels odd kinda-sorta defending the RMTers viewpoint in this - I don't agree with them at all, and want to see them out of the game - but they aren't doing anything illegal just by selling the INF.
Violating the EULA? Yes, absolutely. But EULAs aren't laws.
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It would be kind of like putting an ad in the paper for your buddy's car without his consent. At the very least, it's fraud, even if he gave you a spare key a while back and you had it within your means to actually deliver the goods.
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It would be theft. It's also representing that you own the physical object and have the right to sell it. It's not the same as what the RMTers are doing. What they're doing is - EULA, credit card fraud risk, etc. aside - charging you for their time to wash that car so you don't have to.
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Also, if I had an opportunity to go after them, I'd pile on the fact that in the EULA it states, "Members whose Accounts have been terminated by NC Interactive may not access the Service in any manner or for any reason, including through any other Account, without the express written permission of NC Interactive." [Section 4(i)] I would argue that once an RMTer has been banned, if they access the service again, they are guilty of violating the Federal Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. It might be a bit of a stretch, but if the lawyer is good enough, I think it's doable.
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Had to do a quick lookup. This is, of course, Wikipedia, and I'm not a lawyer, but:
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The Computer Fraud and Abuse Act is a law passed by the United States Congress in 1984 intended to reduce cracking of computer systems and to address federal computer-related offenses. The Computer Fraud and Abuse Act (codified as 18 U.S.C. § 1030 governs cases with a compelling federal interest, where computers of the federal government or certain financial institutions are involved, where the crime itself is interstate in nature, or computers used in interstate and foreign commerce. It was amended in 1986, 1994, 1996, in 2001 by the USA PATRIOT Act, and in 2008 by the Identity Theft Enforcement and Restitution Act. Section (b) of the act punishes anyone who not just commits or attempts to commit an offense under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act but also those who conspire to do so.
The CFAA has specifically defined protected computers under 18 U.S.C. § 1030(e)(2) to mean a computer:
* exclusively for the use of a financial institution or the United States Government, or, in the case of a computer not exclusively for such use, used by or for a financial institution or the United States Government and the conduct constituting the offense affects that use by or for the financial institution or the Government; or
* which is used in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce or communication, including a computer located outside the United States that is used in a manner that affects interstate or foreign commerce or communication of the United States;
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1. No system is being cracked.
2. Doesn't involve the federal government or financial institutions
3. doesn't regulate interstate or federal commerce.
I think it'd be thrown out pretty quickly. And not just from the next point you bring up - trying to enforce US law elsewhere.
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Second, the authorized uses of NCsoft's IP is spelled out in the EULA, and one of those conditions is that you will not use it for any commercial purpose without their written consent. As soon as you do, you are violating copyright and/or trademark law, depending on what you're doing with NCsoft's IP.
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Again - there's nothing *legal* to do with the EULA. And I highly, HIGHLY doubt you could get them on copyright or trademark violations. They're not claiming the copyright or trademark, altering it, etc. If they made a game called "Township of Heroic People" that was more or less a COH ripoff, then you can go for the IP violations. But just saying "We offer this service to players of this game?" Nope.
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Sorry, the "selling my time spent getting it" is BS. Time is not a marketable commodity. It is a unit of measurement.
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I work. I don't do piecework, selling individual items. I get paid for being at work 40 or more hours a week. Nothing that I do produces a physical object I can point to and say "I made that." I can, however, show the time I've spent talking to people, helping them, fixing things or whatnot.
I am getting paid for my time.
Ever get a car repaired, something installed in the house, etc? You're paying, among other things, for "labor" - the time for someone else to be there to perform a service.
Ever rent a movie?
Selling time spent is not BS.
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Yes, it is. Neither you nor the mechanic are getting paid for your time. You're getting paid for [u]WHAT YOU DO[u] during that time. You can bet your sweet bum that you wouldn't be getting paid if all you did was sit around on it and ignore the job you were supposed to be doing during that time. That directly proves that it's not your time you're getting paid for.
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
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ut they aren't selling influence. They're selling the time they spent (or that you don't have to spend) to *get* that amount of influence.
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The influence is being transferred, thus it is being sold. Sorry, but this is just as big a pile of BS as the people who list a pencil for $800 on EBay and say they're throwing in their WoW account as a "free bonus".
The influence is an integral part of the transaction. If the inf wasn't changing hands, the transaction wouldn't be taking place. A furniture crafter who makes a chair and sells it may be selling the service of making the chair, but he is ALSO selling the chair.
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Again - there's nothing *legal* to do with the EULA.
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Two words: CONTRACT LAW. The EULA -IS- a legally binding contract.
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
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Also note when you go to a mechanic for repairs, you're also paying for the parts used in the repairs.
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... which you're charged separately for. You are still charged for labor.
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In this case, there isn't even any actual "merchandise". Anybody can farm a mission or use the market to earn money. Anybody can reach lvl 50. But buying money and/or powerleveling saves people TIME, which is what makes it a service. They spent time doing it for you.
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The money is the merchandise. Just because you can earn it yourself doesn't change that. I can go to the river and catch fish myself, but that doesn't mean when I buy fish at the store it's not "merchandise".
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If you pay the neighbor kid to mow your lawn, what are you paying them for? Sure, a tiny bit of it goes for gas and what not, but you're paying them so YOU don't have to mow the lawn yourself. You are not paying for merchandise, you're paying for a service.
When you see some high school kids offering to wash your car and you decide to let them, are you paying for soap, water, etc.? The majority of it is for their time, for time YOU don't have to spend washing it. You're not paying for merchandise, you're paying for a service.
There are... I forget the term, I want to say concierge services, people who will take care of your chores and, in some cases, go shopping and such for you while you're at work. If you have one go out and buy gifts and such - yes, you pay for the gifts, but you also pay them for the time they take to do so. Time you didn't have to spend doing it. You're paying for a service.
When you pay to have your car parked (and brought to you) by a valet, are you paying for a parking space? Typically not. You're paying *them* to find the space and place your car there, and retrieve it so you don't have to wander around when you're done for the night. You're paying for a service (and I do not mean the tip.)
The INF is not the RMTers merchandise. The 50 (or whatever level you take them to) is not the merchandise. You're paying them for the service - for them spending THEIR time while you do something else.
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From the trademark aspect, they're even MORE explicitly in violation. They're using NC/PS's material for profit, and can -easily- be shown to be interfering with PS's legitimate customer base.
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This is the closest to a legitimate complaint I've seen that NC could take - but not because of trademark violations. NCSoft runs a subscription based business. They can state that RMTers interfere with their business in two ways:
1. By "playing the game" for someone else, they reduce the amount of time that player would spend IN the game, potentially reducing the time they spend subscribed and lowering NCSoft's income. PNC could, potentially, go for monetary damages here, though the amount would be very hard to come up with and prove, and
2. Through their spamming, they reduce the enjoyability of the game environment, which could cause people to leave - not to mention the "halo" of having a CC # stolen by one of these sites providing the service. This would damage the reputation and marketability of the game, again potentially reducing PlayNC's income due to lost subscriptions. But again, hard to come up with and defend a number.
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Sorry, the "selling my time spent getting it" is BS. Time is not a marketable commodity. It is a unit of measurement.
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I work. I don't do piecework, selling individual items. I get paid for being at work 40 or more hours a week. Nothing that I do produces a physical object I can point to and say "I made that." I can, however, show the time I've spent talking to people, helping them, fixing things or whatnot.
I am getting paid for my time.
Ever get a car repaired, something installed in the house, etc? You're paying, among other things, for "labor" - the time for someone else to be there to perform a service.
Ever rent a movie?
Selling time spent is not BS.
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Yes, it is. Neither you nor the mechanic are getting paid for your time. You're getting paid for [u]WHAT YOU DO[u] during that time. You can bet your sweet bum that you wouldn't be getting paid if all you did was sit around on it and ignore the job you were supposed to be doing during that time. That directly proves that it's not your time you're getting paid for.
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Really?
Last job I had (doing contract work,) I got paid for *exactly that* over the weekend. While there'd be the occasional call in, I could bring movies in with me and watch them *all the way through,* browse the 'net, etc.
I just had to be available.
They paid me for *being there.*
I didn't get paid per call, or per person talked to, or closed incident, or item fixed. I got paid *to be available.* I don't get paid more for doing more. I got paid for my time. And past a certain point, I get paid *more* for that time... even if I'm not doing anything.
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Also note when you go to a mechanic for repairs, you're also paying for the parts used in the repairs.
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... which you're charged separately for. You are still charged for labor.
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In this case, there isn't even any actual "merchandise". Anybody can farm a mission or use the market to earn money. Anybody can reach lvl 50. But buying money and/or powerleveling saves people TIME, which is what makes it a service. They spent time doing it for you.
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The money is the merchandise. Just because you can earn it yourself doesn't change that. I can go to the river and catch fish myself, but that doesn't mean when I buy fish at the store it's not "merchandise".
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If you pay the neighbor kid to mow your lawn, what are you paying them for? Sure, a tiny bit of it goes for gas and what not, but you're paying them so YOU don't have to mow the lawn yourself. You are not paying for merchandise, you're paying for a service.
When you see some high school kids offering to wash your car and you decide to let them, are you paying for soap, water, etc.? The majority of it is for their time, for time YOU don't have to spend washing it. You're not paying for merchandise, you're paying for a service.
There are... I forget the term, I want to say concierge services, people who will take care of your chores and, in some cases, go shopping and such for you while you're at work. If you have one go out and buy gifts and such - yes, you pay for the gifts, but you also pay them for the time they take to do so. Time you didn't have to spend doing it. You're paying for a service.
When you pay to have your car parked (and brought to you) by a valet, are you paying for a parking space? Typically not. You're paying *them* to find the space and place your car there, and retrieve it so you don't have to wander around when you're done for the night. You're paying for a service (and I do not mean the tip.)
The INF is not the RMTers merchandise. The 50 (or whatever level you take them to) is not the merchandise. You're paying them for the service - for them spending THEIR time while you do something else.
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Show me which of your examples shows the customer getting something transferred to him as part of the service? The RMTers are transferring the inf or the character. Thus, it is being sold. What part of this are you having trouble grasping? If a product is changing hands as part of the transaction, then that product is being sold. It doesn't matter if the service is -ALSO- part of the transaction. The kid that mows my lawn doesn't give me his lawnmower when he's done.
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From the trademark aspect, they're even MORE explicitly in violation. They're using NC/PS's material for profit, and can -easily- be shown to be interfering with PS's legitimate customer base.
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This is the closest to a legitimate complaint I've seen that NC could take - but not because of trademark violations.
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But the trademark violations are -very- valid. Using someone else's trademarked material as part of your business without their authorization is flat-out illegal. And that's exactly what the RMTers are doing.
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
Well, based on the posts here everyone should set up a foreign RMT business and go to town. 
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Sorry, the "selling my time spent getting it" is BS. Time is not a marketable commodity. It is a unit of measurement.
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I work. I don't do piecework, selling individual items. I get paid for being at work 40 or more hours a week. Nothing that I do produces a physical object I can point to and say "I made that." I can, however, show the time I've spent talking to people, helping them, fixing things or whatnot.
I am getting paid for my time.
Ever get a car repaired, something installed in the house, etc? You're paying, among other things, for "labor" - the time for someone else to be there to perform a service.
Ever rent a movie?
Selling time spent is not BS.
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Yes, it is. Neither you nor the mechanic are getting paid for your time. You're getting paid for [u]WHAT YOU DO[u] during that time. You can bet your sweet bum that you wouldn't be getting paid if all you did was sit around on it and ignore the job you were supposed to be doing during that time. That directly proves that it's not your time you're getting paid for.
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Really?
Last job I had (doing contract work,) I got paid for *exactly that* over the weekend. While there'd be the occasional call in, I could bring movies in with me and watch them *all the way through,* browse the 'net, etc.
I just had to be available.
They paid me for *being there.*
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No, you got paid for doing work during that time when it was needed. You didn't ignore the job. When there was a call in, you took care of it. You were performing a service, even if that service didn't occupy the entire time you were there. "Being available" is a service.
You're paid hourly ( Monthly/weekly/whatever ) because time is the most convenient method of measuring the service. And that's all time is: A unit of measurement. I drive a truck. I get paid by the mile. The company isn't buying "my miles", they're buying me driving those miles.
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
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Also note when you go to a mechanic for repairs, you're also paying for the parts used in the repairs.
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... which you're charged separately for. You are still charged for labor.
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In this case, there isn't even any actual "merchandise". Anybody can farm a mission or use the market to earn money. Anybody can reach lvl 50. But buying money and/or powerleveling saves people TIME, which is what makes it a service. They spent time doing it for you.
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The money is the merchandise. Just because you can earn it yourself doesn't change that. I can go to the river and catch fish myself, but that doesn't mean when I buy fish at the store it's not "merchandise".
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If you pay the neighbor kid to mow your lawn, what are you paying them for? Sure, a tiny bit of it goes for gas and what not, but you're paying them so YOU don't have to mow the lawn yourself. You are not paying for merchandise, you're paying for a service.
When you see some high school kids offering to wash your car and you decide to let them, are you paying for soap, water, etc.? The majority of it is for their time, for time YOU don't have to spend washing it. You're not paying for merchandise, you're paying for a service.
There are... I forget the term, I want to say concierge services, people who will take care of your chores and, in some cases, go shopping and such for you while you're at work. If you have one go out and buy gifts and such - yes, you pay for the gifts, but you also pay them for the time they take to do so. Time you didn't have to spend doing it. You're paying for a service.
When you pay to have your car parked (and brought to you) by a valet, are you paying for a parking space? Typically not. You're paying *them* to find the space and place your car there, and retrieve it so you don't have to wander around when you're done for the night. You're paying for a service (and I do not mean the tip.)
The INF is not the RMTers merchandise. The 50 (or whatever level you take them to) is not the merchandise. You're paying them for the service - for them spending THEIR time while you do something else.
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Show me which of your examples shows the customer getting something transferred to him as part of the service? The RMTers are transferring the inf or the character. Thus, it is being sold.
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The character is not being sold. The character remains under the person's account. The character does not get moved from account to account. There is no transfer of the character to the RMTer, nor do they ever leave NCSoft's overall control. You are paying for the time they spend leveling it, as opposed to you leveling it.
Same with INF.
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What part of this are you having trouble grasping? If a product is changing hands as part of the transaction, then that product is being sold.
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*The character does not get sold.* There is no product. You are paying them for the time taken for gaining X amount of INF.
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It doesn't matter if the service is -ALSO- part of the transaction. The kid that mows my lawn doesn't give me his lawnmower when he's done.
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The service is the entire transaction. YOU don't have to spend the time cutting the grass, but you end up with the lawn garbage (and a shorter lawn.) Instead of spending *your* time doing so, you pay someone else to spend *their* time doing so.
That is what they're selling.
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From the trademark aspect, they're even MORE explicitly in violation. They're using NC/PS's material for profit, and can -easily- be shown to be interfering with PS's legitimate customer base.
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This is the closest to a legitimate complaint I've seen that NC could take - but not because of trademark violations.
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But the trademark violations are -very- valid. Using someone else's trademarked material as part of your business without their authorization is flat-out illegal. And that's exactly what the RMTers are doing.
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If they were going under, say, www.COHInfluence.com (I don't know if that site exists or not, just made it up,) they could be seen as violating trademark. They're directly using COH's name.
By what you're saying, none of the people on DeviantArt who do character pieces should be there - since they say things like "I'll produce artwork of your character from games such as City of Heroes." They'd probably be even MORE in violation, as they're doing reproductions of items, characters, designs and such from within the game, which are *also* marked as "property of NCSoft" in the EULA. NCSoft gets nothing whatsoever from that - at least the RMTers have to have a live account!
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No, you got paid for doing work during that time when it was needed. You didn't ignore the job. When there was a call in, you took care of it. You were performing a service, even if that service didn't occupy the entire time you were there. "Being available" is a service.
You're paid hourly ( Monthly/weekly/whatever ) because time is the most convenient method of measuring the service. And that's all time is: A unit of measurement. I drive a truck. I get paid by the mile. The company isn't buying "my miles", they're buying me driving those miles.
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And you're paying the RMTers a rate for their service, as well. 
We're not going to see eye to eye on this, so I'm going to step out of this for now instead of butting heads for the next hour or so. I'd much rather get something (like "in better shape") if I'm going to run around in circles
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The character is not being sold. The character remains under the person's account. The character does not get moved from account to account. There is no transfer of the character to the RMTer, nor do they ever leave NCSoft's overall control. You are paying for the time they spend leveling it, as opposed to you leveling it.
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PLing service is a different animal. And it goes into several OTHER violations, not the least of which being explicitly unauthorized access to the servers. ( They are not permitted by PS to access the servers through ANOTHER CUSTOMER'S account. )
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Same with INF.
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RMTers don't use the buyer's account to farm the inf. They have accounts that they use to farm it themselves, then transfer it to the buyers.
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What part of this are you having trouble grasping? If a product is changing hands as part of the transaction, then that product is being sold.
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*The character does not get sold.* There is no product. You are paying them for the time taken for gaining X amount of INF.
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Again, there's a difference between PLing services and RMT character services.
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It doesn't matter if the service is -ALSO- part of the transaction. The kid that mows my lawn doesn't give me his lawnmower when he's done.
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The service is the entire transaction.
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*Headdesk* Forget it. You're just going to plug your ears and shout "LALALALALALALA!" no matter what I say. The inf is being transferred to the buyer. It's part of the transaction. Delude yourself all you want, I don't care anymore. You're clearly incredibly naive about how RMT works...
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
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Are there are repercussions for purchasing infamy or influence from RMT (Real Money Traders) that advertise online and on ingame emails?
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Yes. Paying RMT services is just as much a violation of the EULA as being an RMT service.
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I do understand that they are not trustworthy people and steal accounts/credit cards/anything from people when given the chance to do so. Can you get suspended or warnings or anything at all from paying these people to help or play your accounts (play as in powerleveling for you?)
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I have to admit, this question is kind of amusing. It's little like saying, "If I fall off a cliff, I understand that the whole dying thing is pretty bad, but if I tried to hit feet first, do you think that it would knock any of my teeth out?"
Who cares? You're dead!
Likewise, even if buying RMT wares were completely okay with NCsoft (which, again just to be crystal clear, it's not!), the whole thing about giving your credit card number or other personal information to someone in another country that doesn't enforce laws against stuff like, oh, say, stealing things from foreigners should be plenty enough reason to know that this is a bad idea.
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)