Here's my problem with the tanks need more damage debate (and I'm not saying whether or not I feel tanks need anything or not). Say it's true; say tanks are absolutely useless comparatively to Brutes with buffs and they're completely uneccessary. Then why is it that people who are quite knowledgable about this game, and who have been on teams with uber buffs and what not, still want me to bring my stone tank. Still want me to bring my stone tank over my other tanks who do a lot more damage (although my stoner is still quite decent int hat department) but have a lot less survivability?
I think tanks will always be played, because the mentality it brings is one that is most team oriented of any of the melee archetypes. If anything I would like to see tanks bring a little bit more of defense force multiplying, but they don't really need it, not enough for me to argue for it. And when I'm fighting on my tanks I'm not comparing what my brutes can do in a similar situation, or my scrappers for that matter. it's a different playstyle. I'm concerned with how I'm tanking, and my teammates appreciate it.
These problesm might exist in the high end game. I wouldn't be surprised if they do. But they certainly don't exist in the pug game or the low to mid end game. If you're gunning for a 30 minute ITF I woudln't bring my stoner - or maybe I would considering my tanking skills make the end AV's that much easier and another rad isn't going to amke them fall that much faster, but someone who can pull the healer from Rom would, and I have yet to see a brute ablet o do that without a lot of buffing. Even the sotners tend to complain (and seriously? Wow. Even at base numbers brute granite isn't anything to laugh at).
Anyway, I don't see brutes replacing tankers any time soon.
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
[ QUOTE ]
, bacause from my in-game experience there are three tiers of "Taunts" available:
Confront/Scrapper-- single target taunt, single target-75% range
Taunt/Brute-- AoE taunt, single target -75% range
Taunt/Tank-- AoE taunt, AoE -75% range
[/ QUOTE ] Seizure is completely right about this.
How the heck is the majority of the forum ignorant to this? Are you all corner pullers on your Tanks, while refusing to take Taunt on a Brute?
Come on people, get with it and learn to play your ATs before debating about them.
[ QUOTE ]
Just been wanting ask this, would you rather play on a Brute or Tanker? Also who would you rather team with?
[/ QUOTE ]
Team with tanker.
Solo as brute. But I'd rather solo as scrapper or stalker. And I'd rather Tank than Brute..... Brutes can't take the hits a tanker can.
Play ... TANK
Play on my team .. Tank
I am not sure what strategy or builds some of you are using out there but my Tanks solo quite nicely thank you. In fact when I am feeling frisky I will practice herding on solo missions and have as many as 9 or 12 villains pounding away while I yawn and systematically pound them into mush. On a team they love nothing better than being surrounded by baddies pounding away while the team picks away at the mob which for the most part is ignorng all of them completely.
Don't get me wrong Brutes are great and I play one on TV err I mean on COV. But I can't see her standing toe to toe with the likes of Jurassik. Yawning as the car on the end of that tree truck he carries around crash down on top of her repeatedly. My SD/SS Tank took on Kraken a while back, long ago before hitting 47 and amusing myself by soloing every Rikti mission I could find, and while the battle was raging the Zombies decided to pay Perez Park a visit. By the time the battle was done I not only had the badge for Kraken but all 4 of the ones for a Zombie invasion YAWN .. hey Kraken if you need more help here's my cell phone call Babbage and see if he's available. hehehe
Okay seriously Brutes do what they do well but they are a sort of half tank/half scrapper .. great for dealing damage but anyone that has done an ITF will tell you.. A brute does not have the same aggro control ability that a tank does. If its all that's available fine but if we can find 2 tanks PLEASE invite them both.
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Brute all the way. Every time I try to pick back up a tank I get bored and switch to a brute.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm.
I ask must ask, would improving the Tanker's aggro handling abilities or giving them increased mez effects make them more interesting and less boring to you?
And if not, what would?
I extend that same question to everyone else so far who's answered Brute.
.
[/ QUOTE ]
I guess it's just my playstyle that prevents me from really enjoying a tank. Moving through hordes of enemies quickly and trying to see how many spawns I can keep locked down are my favorite so I tend to play Brutes/Doms/Widows/Scrappers/Blasters/Controllers. None of this really never answered your question I suppose so maybe change out gauntlet for something more usefull. I can't really place with what though. I know they do less dmg sans IO's since they have higher base resists/defense but something just feels off and I can't tell what. Perhaps it's the leveling thing since at early levels they generate alot of aggro but are missing shields and mitigation to keep themselves upright. The devs really did brutes and scrappers right since they start off strong and keep that momentum all the way up.
On a side note to the ones claiming brute squishyness:
My favorite brute, and namesake, is Stone/Stone and he really is fun to play. I recently did a major overhaul on him by IO'ing him to the gills. He isn't a tank so he can't keep the best aggro but he can dish out more dmg while being extremly survivable and still keep the team relatively safe. Sure this is only possible with IO slotting but it wasn't necessary. There are quite a few brute combinations that are capable of surviving and managing aggro fairly well.
Elec/Cold Troller AV/Pylon/GM/TF/SF Soloing Antics
everytime...he gets me everytime.... DAMN U BOOMIE
-- _Ilr_
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are apparently incorrect:
Tank taunt: Max target 5 Autohit Foe
+41s Taunt (mag 4) PvE only
+10.25s Taunt (mag 4) PvP only, Not auto-hit
Range -75% for 12s [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
Unknown Null +1
Brute Taunt: Max targets 5 Autohit Foe
+41s Taunt (mag 4) PvE only
+10.25s Taunt (mag 4) PvP only, Not auto-hit
Range -75% for 12s [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
Unknown Null +1
The two taunts are identical in every way.
[/ QUOTE ]
Have you used both a Tank and a Brute Taunt against ranged foes, monitoring the behavior of targets other than the primary in the AoE of Taunt?
I have. I am 99% positive that the Brute's Taunt only applies the range debuff to a single target-- the one that the recticle is over.
Just because the descriptions read the same doesn't mean that the coding is the same. Please, test this and actually check my results from gameplay, bacause from my in-game experience there are three tiers of "Taunts" available:
<ul type="square">[*]Confront/Scrapper-- single target taunt, single target-75% range[*]Taunt/Brute-- AoE taunt, single target -75% range[*]Taunt/Tank-- AoE taunt, AoE -75% range[/list]
The method is quite easy. Log in as a Brute, Taunt the Goldbricker spawns in Cap Au Diable, and watch as just ONE of the Goldbrickers runs towards you to shoot while all the others draw a weapon and fire.
Log in as a Tank, Taunt a group of Hellions/whatever, and watch as the entire spawn runs towards you to draw a gun and shoot.
Let me know if you get different results from actual gameplay...
[/ QUOTE ]
I have read for quite some time that taunt from brutes is supposed to only be single target, but I am fairly sure that it is not just single target. I never expected it to work as a single target thing, but I always get more than just one mob if I activate taunt in a circumstance similar to the one you described. I think the tank might pull more with his taunt, but there is certainly a degree of fallacy to an assessment that brute taunt is single target only.
To clarify, I am not speaking of getting in range of an aura picking up taunt, but simply of the distance taunt. On both a brute or tanker, it will pull more than a single target. To be honest, I am not sure how confront compares as I have never used the power on any scrapper of mine. Perhaps someone could chime in and say whether or not confront is truly single target?
Edit- I should also say that i always take taunt on both brutes and tanks and am quite familiar with how it works on both ATs.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
[ QUOTE ]
Then why is it that people who are quite knowledgable about this game, and who have been on teams with uber buffs and what not, still want me to bring my stone tank.
[/ QUOTE ]
The the same reason people take the elevator to the third floor even though the stairs would be better for them. Because it's easier.
Tankers allow other players to slack bacause they shoulder the burden, and many, like the Stoner, can do it alone. Which is nice when you're smoothing things out for a less than optimal team, but bad when you're just being a crutch for poor players.
But unlike an elevator, Tankers aren't unfeeling machines built to ferry people where they want to go(to lvl 50). Most people want to enjoy themselves, because this is a game after all.
Now, we've got a wide range of people who've posted here who've stated they find Tankers boring and not enjoyable, in a large part I suspect because of their offense.
These same people, from what I can tell, DID NOT say they HATED to tank for teams. In fact, Brutes can do a very good job at tanking with their auras and mini-Gauntlet and desire to keep their Fury up.
And I would say the majority of players don't have a hate or a love of aggro management. I'd guess the majority see it as just something that happens, and value it on a team if it's coming from a Tanker OR a Brute.
I would say however, that damage and offense is something most players enjoy to have.
So, in my opinion, the devs could stand to make Tankers more accessable and more enjoyable to a larger number of players by improving them offensively. They may even sway a few people in this thread who've said they only like Brutes to change their opinion and say they now enjoy BOTH.
.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are apparently incorrect:
Tank taunt: Max target 5 Autohit Foe
+41s Taunt (mag 4) PvE only
+10.25s Taunt (mag 4) PvP only, Not auto-hit
Range -75% for 12s [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
Unknown Null +1
Brute Taunt: Max targets 5 Autohit Foe
+41s Taunt (mag 4) PvE only
+10.25s Taunt (mag 4) PvP only, Not auto-hit
Range -75% for 12s [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
Unknown Null +1
The two taunts are identical in every way.
[/ QUOTE ]
Have you used both a Tank and a Brute Taunt against ranged foes, monitoring the behavior of targets other than the primary in the AoE of Taunt?
I have. I am 99% positive that the Brute's Taunt only applies the range debuff to a single target-- the one that the recticle is over.
Just because the descriptions read the same doesn't mean that the coding is the same. Please, test this and actually check my results from gameplay, bacause from my in-game experience there are three tiers of "Taunts" available:
<ul type="square">[*]Confront/Scrapper-- single target taunt, single target-75% range[*]Taunt/Brute-- AoE taunt, single target -75% range[*]Taunt/Tank-- AoE taunt, AoE -75% range[/list]
The method is quite easy. Log in as a Brute, Taunt the Goldbricker spawns in Cap Au Diable, and watch as just ONE of the Goldbrickers runs towards you to shoot while all the others draw a weapon and fire.
Log in as a Tank, Taunt a group of Hellions/whatever, and watch as the entire spawn runs towards you to draw a gun and shoot.
Let me know if you get different results from actual gameplay...
[/ QUOTE ]
I have read for quite some time that taunt from brutes is supposed to only be single target, but I am fairly sure that it is not just single target. I never expected it to work as a single target thing, but I always get more than just one mob if I activate taunt in a circumstance similar to the one you described. I think the tank might pull more with his taunt, but there is certainly a degree of fallacy to an assessment that brute taunt is single target only.
To clarify, I am not speaking of getting in range of an aura picking up taunt, but simply of the distance taunt. On both a brute or tanker, it will pull more than a single target. To be honest, I am not sure how confront compares as I have never used the power on any scrapper of mine. Perhaps someone could chime in and say whether or not confront is truly single target?
Edit- I should also say that i always take taunt on both brutes and tanks and am quite familiar with how it works on both ATs.
[/ QUOTE ]
Confront for Scrappers is a ST taunt. Taunt for Tanks and Brutes are both AoE, but in my experience, JuliusSeizure is correct in stating that the brute version apparently only applies the range debuff to the actual target.
I can verify this from multiple runs herding up big groups in the Fab neighborhood where I've taunted a group and managed to get their attention, but only the actual target of the taunt closes in to attack at closer range. The remainder of the group stays at their previous position and fires the same attacks that the actual target had to move closer to fire. So yes, the -range portion of the Taunt for Brutes is apparently ST despite the Taunt being an AoE.
Quote:
|
Daemonchilde: ((fluffy thinks he's a tank)) Demon . Hunter: (( I think mine is >.> Daemonchilde: ((Yours is no longer fluffy, it is Obliteron, destroyer of worlds)) |
I see, I misunderstood the point regarding the debuff component.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
, bacause from my in-game experience there are three tiers of "Taunts" available:
Confront/Scrapper-- single target taunt, single target-75% range
Taunt/Brute-- AoE taunt, single target -75% range
Taunt/Tank-- AoE taunt, AoE -75% range
[/ QUOTE ] Seizure is completely right about this.
How the heck is the majority of the forum ignorant to this? Are you all corner pullers on your Tanks, while refusing to take Taunt on a Brute?
Come on people, get with it and learn to play your ATs before debating about them.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't play tanks because they're boring. I don't take taunt on my brutes because it's a wasted power pick.
If brute taunt's range debuff is only affecting the targeted enemy rather than all foes hit, then it's bugged and should be reported to Castle.
Be well, people of CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
If brute taunt's range debuff is only affecting the targeted enemy rather than all foes hit, then it's bugged and should be reported to Castle.
[/ QUOTE ]
But Castle specifically designed it this way. There was a post a while ago, well before the -range was implemented, that stated that all 3 ATs were getting the range debuff and that only Tankers could apply it to all targets.
This is a distinct difference between Brutes and Tanks, one that further cements a Tank as the superior agro magnet/spawn diver. And it is for this reason that I feel an agro grabbing Tank should take Taunt now-- it's just that good at what it does.
[ QUOTE ]
I have read for quite some time that taunt from brutes is supposed to only be single target, but I am fairly sure that it is not just single target. I never expected it to work as a single target thing, but I always get more than just one mob if I activate taunt in a circumstance similar to the one you described.
[/ QUOTE ]
That hate-generating effect of Taunt for Brutes is the same as a Tank's. They are both AoE "taunts' that hold up to 5 opponent's attention.
The -75% range debuff is not, however, applied to all 5 targets of a Brute's Taunt. It is only applied to the MOB that is inside of your targeting recticle. A Tank's Taunt will apply the -75% range to all of the taunted targets.
--That's the difference and it is HUGE in actual game play. No one can clump a spawn better than a Tank, and no one can survive this agro role better. (Exception: a Zombie/Pain Tankermind with proper IOs can probably outlive almost any AT in this game.)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If brute taunt's range debuff is only affecting the targeted enemy rather than all foes hit, then it's bugged and should be reported to Castle.
[/ QUOTE ]
But Castle specifically designed it this way. There was a post a while ago, well before the -range was implemented, that stated that all 3 ATs were getting the range debuff and that only Tankers could apply it to all targets.
This is a distinct difference between Brutes and Tanks, one that further cements a Tank as the superior agro magnet/spawn diver. And it is for this reason that I feel an agro grabbing Tank should take Taunt now-- it's just that good at what it does.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm fine with that. If it's working as intended then the text is bugged and needs to be updated to show it and CoD needs to be updated as well.
Be well, people of CoH.
Yeah, the text definitely needs clarification.
I also wouldn't mind seeing the Tanker version of Taunt get even slightly better, with a radius increase of 2-3 feet and a cap of 7 targets rather than 5.
Tanker, my sheild/ss tanker can dish it out and take it. IO'd out with Recharge and soft capped defenses with moderate resistance. also against all odds is sorta likea mini fury :P stacked with Rage and your a powerhouse. I like teaming with Kinetics or Empaths.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm fine with that. If it's working as intended then the text is bugged and needs to be updated to show it and CoD needs to be updated as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's just one of the things that CoD just doesn't list at all right now - effects within a power can have a different radius than the power itself lists. Take a look at any Tanker attack - they're all AoEs, but only the taunt portion (Gauntlet) splashes. Likewise, take a peek at Thunderstrike; it's the same deal, an AoE with only the energy portion splashing.
Trust me, I'd love to see the different radii of the effects for a power, but it doesn't look like that's a feature it currently supports.
[ QUOTE ]
Play ... TANK
Play on my team .. Tank
I am not sure what strategy or builds some of you are using out there but my Tanks solo quite nicely thank you. In fact when I am feeling frisky I will practice herding on solo missions and have as many as 9 or 12 villains pounding away while I yawn and systematically pound them into mush. On a team they love nothing better than being surrounded by baddies pounding away while the team picks away at the mob which for the most part is ignorng all of them completely.
Don't get me wrong Brutes are great and I play one on TV err I mean on COV. But I can't see her standing toe to toe with the likes of Jurassik. Yawning as the car on the end of that tree truck he carries around crash down on top of her repeatedly. My SD/SS Tank took on Kraken a while back, long ago before hitting 47 and amusing myself by soloing every Rikti mission I could find, and while the battle was raging the Zombies decided to pay Perez Park a visit. By the time the battle was done I not only had the badge for Kraken but all 4 of the ones for a Zombie invasion YAWN .. hey Kraken if you need more help here's my cell phone call Babbage and see if he's available. hehehe
Okay seriously Brutes do what they do well but they are a sort of half tank/half scrapper .. great for dealing damage but anyone that has done an ITF will tell you.. A brute does not have the same aggro control ability that a tank does. If its all that's available fine but if we can find 2 tanks PLEASE invite them both.
[/ QUOTE ]
I ran my DM/SD Brute into the Abyss, picked a fight with the DE monsters in there. 1v1, they couldn't kill me, I couldn't kill them, either. Now, I'm no supertwink, and I've got only three IO sets on that character, one of which is lvl 15. No purples or anything. I also have Shadow Maul and my Fortunata Pet because I like having those things more than minimaxing.
Once I finish IO'ing out that character, I suspect there will be small difference between a tanker's defense and my brute's.
[ QUOTE ]
So, in my opinion, the devs could stand to make Tankers more accessable and more enjoyable to a larger number of players by improving them offensively. They may even sway a few people in this thread who've said they only like Brutes to change their opinion and say they now enjoy BOTH.
[/ QUOTE ] That sounds reasonable, but how could they do it without making Brutes and/or Scrappers irrelevant?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, in my opinion, the devs could stand to make Tankers more accessable and more enjoyable to a larger number of players by improving them offensively. They may even sway a few people in this thread who've said they only like Brutes to change their opinion and say they now enjoy BOTH.
[/ QUOTE ] That sounds reasonable, but how could they do it without making Brutes and/or Scrappers irrelevant?
[/ QUOTE ]
Unique mehanics.
Scrappers, Brutes and Stalkers are all melee damage dealers, yet they all play differently enough to make each attractive and distinct offensively.
One suggestion I floated for Tankers was a (old version) Domination-style periodic damage buff inherent power.
Another suggestion was stacking -resistance and/or -regen debuffs on Tanker single target attacks. Like Brutes, they would see their damage to a tough target increase over time. But unlike Brutes, minions, LTs and other soft stuff wouldn't see as great of an effect since the effect wouldn't get to stack on them as much.
One suggestion I mulled over, but never formally proposed, was an inherent power for Tankers similar to Hunter's Mark in WoW. A Tanker could pick out a single target, mark it and then be dealing much much more damage to just that target until it is defeated. Other players and other Tankers would still deal the same damage to that target, however. The power would be on a long enough recharge so that you couldn't use it every spawn (maybe every second spawn at most), but it would be available for EB/AV/GM battles.
.
My old suggestion for tankers was that they should eat AoEs. As in, literally reduce or eliminate the area spread to keep the rest of the team from being hit. The ol' human shield idea.
If you Full Auto Superman, and Batman is behind him, Batman gets hurt less or not at all.
I can't see any offensive buffs coming to Tanks, not matter how you package it or work it as an AT inherent ability.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, in my opinion, the devs could stand to make Tankers more accessable and more enjoyable to a larger number of players by improving them offensively. They may even sway a few people in this thread who've said they only like Brutes to change their opinion and say they now enjoy BOTH.
[/ QUOTE ] That sounds reasonable, but how could they do it without making Brutes and/or Scrappers irrelevant?
[/ QUOTE ]
Unique mehanics.
Scrappers, Brutes and Stalkers are all melee damage dealers, yet they all play differently enough to make each attractive and distinct offensively.
One suggestion I floated for Tankers was a (old version) Domination-style periodic damage buff inherent power.
Another suggestion was stacking -resistance and/or -regen debuffs on Tanker single target attacks. Like Brutes, they would see their damage to a tough target increase over time. But unlike Brutes, minions, LTs and other soft stuff wouldn't see as great of an effect since the effect wouldn't get to stack on them as much.
One suggestion I mulled over, but never formally proposed, was an inherent power for Tankers similar to Hunter's Mark in WoW. A Tanker could pick out a single target, mark it and then be dealing much much more damage to just that target until it is defeated. Other players and other Tankers would still deal the same damage to that target, however. The power would be on a long enough recharge so that you couldn't use it every spawn (maybe every second spawn at most), but it would be available for EB/AV/GM battles.
.
[/ QUOTE ] Without going into the numbers, those sound like reasonable suggestions. As it stands right now, the STF is the only thing in the game in which a tank is on my priority list when I'm forming teams. I'm not saying tanks are bad or that I won't take one, just that they can become irrelevant quite easily on a decent/good team. But adding -regen and -res to their attacks would make them more desirable to me.
[ QUOTE ]
My old suggestion for tankers was that they should eat AoEs. As in, literally reduce or eliminate the area spread to keep the rest of the team from being hit. The ol' human shield idea.
If you Full Auto Superman, and Batman is behind him, Batman gets hurt less or not at all.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think this idea was floated in the thread where the -range for taunt was suggested. I can't remember if it's even possible to do this in the game.
Oh, and the answer to the OPs question is Tanker, and Tanker. I hope this clears things up so we can get back to the tastes great/less filling debate. 
[ QUOTE ]
Without going into the numbers, those sound like reasonable suggestions. As it stands right now, the STF is the only thing in the game in which a tank is on my priority list when I'm forming teams. I'm not saying tanks are bad or that I won't take one, just that they can become irrelevant quite easily on a decent/good team.
[/ QUOTE ]
Any AT can become irrelevant on a good team.
I've been on controllers, defenders, blasters, scrappers, brutes, stalkers, peacebringers, masterminds, corruptors, dominators, and widows where I could go AFK with no noticeable change in mission speed.
ANY AT can be made unessential on a good team. Damage, and Buffs can be wasted just as easily as defense.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are extra HP really worth the low damage of a Tanker, though?
As I continually point out, the superior defense of a tanker is potentially meaningless on a good team; to use an extreme example, a team of 8 Defenders can steamroll any content in the game through putting out an impenetrable wall of buffs/debuffs.
When the entire team is at soft cap defense from bubbles/leadership with some nice resistance buffs to boot, while the enemy acc and dam are debuffed to the floor, the tank's advantage is simply the quantity of hitpoints.
Are the extra 1500 or so HP that important?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yup, tankers are completely useless when they aren't needed. No one should play them because everyone is always running around at the softcap on defense and with capped dam-res.
No one should every play tanks and JB can finally quit the game in disgust.
[/ QUOTE ]
I will admit, and not only admit but bluntly state, that the above situation is theoretical, but such situations could occur.
Another approach one could take is, how much defense (in the general sense, not just +DEF) does a character need? Does one need to have every possible defensive stat capped? Obviously not.
Also, I am bluntly biased. I like Brutes more. I like playing them, I like watching them pound the snot out of things. I prefer steamrolling to herding, constantly moving to unloading a volley every few minutes.
Does that make Brutes better than Tankers? Yes it does, for me. For you? Maybe not. In which case, you roll a Tanker, I'll roll a Brute, and we can both be happy.