If you have to chase fury, you are doing it wrong. Just start scrapping, and the fury builds automatically. Besides, just glancing at my attribute window and seeing the beautiful 750% dmg bonus in blue always brightens my day.
I don't think one is solidly ahead of the other as far as survivability goes either. Sarrate brought up ITFs- I have seen a well built scrapper tank/solo the whole thing and I have seen stone armor tanks get owned in the first few mobs. It all depends on who is behind the wheel and how well they use the tools given them.
I like them both, but I would rather play with a brute because it is more rewarding to be an aggro magnet. Brutes stack much better than tanks do, in my eyes. 2 or 3 or 4 brutes can be a lovely thing. That many tanks on one team makes for a safe and dull progression.
I would rather team with a brute because chances are, they are moving at a faster pace than a typical tank.
As far as people blaming death on "lack of tankage" or complaining about a brute or tank not using taunt, you probably need to learn to survive on your own instead of depending on other ATs and people to protect you. (That wasn't directed at anyone here really, it is just something I encounter sometimes.)
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
Funny story- on an ITF the other day with both a brute and a tank, and a fair number of buffs (emp,rad, kin therm), the team would sometimes split and most of the team would rally behind the tank. I saw no problem with that until I realized that the kin was glued to the back of the tank. Using fulcrum shift on a buffed brute is likely to be a much better return on investment than ignoring the brute and fulcrum shifting only on a buffed tank with a notably lower damage ceiling.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
To play: Tankers. Brutes are too squishy. Same reason I don't play Scrappers. Sure the damage is good, but most teams don't need damage. They need someone to initiate combat, take the alpha and hold aggro. The spawn will be dead 10 seconds after that.
The thing that turns me off most about Brutes is the lack of consistency. An oscillating bar of death is less desirable to me than solid defenses that I can have on all the time. But that's just my playstyle, always has been; defensive over offensive.
To team with: Either, as long as the player is marginally competent.
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As far as people blaming death on "lack of tankage" or complaining about a brute or tank not using taunt, you probably need to learn to survive on your own instead of depending on other ATs and people to protect you. (That wasn't directed at anyone here really, it is just something I encounter sometimes.)
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Just my observation is that people can survive on a team without tanking, but it goes smoother with it. The less people have to worry about keeping themselves alive and focus on defeating the mob faster, the smoother things go.
(I reject the whole "mobs die in 10 seconds" mentality; they can drop that fast, but there are too many instances of fights lasting a while for me to buy it's the standard. Besides, if a spawn drops that fast, then the extra damage a Brute has is likely overkill.)
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I ask must ask, would improving the Tanker's aggro handling abilities
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Tanks alreaedy do this. Taunt for Tanks causes -75% range on all foes, often drawing them into mellee range. Taunt for Brutes is limited to debuffing only the target hit. The end result is that Tanks "clump" spawns much better than Brutes.
The only buff that Tanks might need is raising the max # of targets on their Taunt from 5 to 7 and increasing the radius by 2-3 feet. Perhaps raise the agro cap on Tanks to 20 as well.
Now, for the OP, I would MUCH rather play as my Brute, which is beyond fun-- allowing me to hold agro, do damage, and be buffed to insanity.
I would much rather team with a competent Tank that employs Taunt and doesn't shout "to here," actually slowing my xp/sec and fun/sec. An agro cap exists and this behavior should have died with that change.
Let me preface this by saying I'm a blueside player; I've never played a villain past level 15. With that said, I have teamed with several high level Brutes on various ITF's.
To play, Tanker. I've tried Brutes to the mid-teens (highest I've gotten anything redside) and I find Fury to be detrimental to survivability. Brutes are way too unpredictable; I know exactly what my tankers can do, and they'll do it in any situation. The Fury mechanic causes too much extreme variation in ability. And, of course, Brutes don't have the aggro handling abilities of a good tanker.
To play with, assuming I'm NOT playing one of my tanks, definitely a Tank, provided he's competent. Absent a competent tanker give me a good Scrapper any day. I've teamed with many Brutes on ITF's and frankly I've found them to generally be squishier than some Scrappers, to say nothing of a true tanker. I haven't ever teamed with a Brute who didn't decide to run off and taste the floor. Tanks are much more team friendly.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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Tanks alreaedy do this. Taunt for Tanks causes -75% range on all foes, often drawing them into mellee range. Taunt for Brutes is limited to debuffing only the target hit. The end result is that Tanks "clump" spawns much better than Brutes.
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You are apparently incorrect:
Tank taunt: Max target 5 Autohit Foe
+41s Taunt (mag 4) PvE only
+10.25s Taunt (mag 4) PvP only, Not auto-hit
Range -75% for 12s [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
Unknown Null +1
Brute Taunt: Max targets 5 Autohit Foe
+41s Taunt (mag 4) PvE only
+10.25s Taunt (mag 4) PvP only, Not auto-hit
Range -75% for 12s [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
Unknown Null +1
The two taunts are identical in every way.
Be well, people of CoH.
To play, hard to say. I like both, in different ways.
To play with, Brute. Nothing wrong with the Tanker AT itself, but I dislike the "I'm a tanker, I'm the star of the show, follow my orders peons" attitude that seem to come more often with Tanker players than with any other AT in my experience. Then again, it also happens with Granite brutes. There seem to be something with having great survivability that brings out the worse in some people.
So, assuming a smart player, either AT would be good to play with.
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Because Brutes benefit so greatly from being a much more modernly designed CoV AT they just pretty much make tanks look like dipsticks. Is there any encounter in the game you can't easily team buff a brute to tank sufficiently? If not then might as well bring the guy that can get up to %850 damage buff too!
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This entire thread is making me laugh until my sides ache, but stuff like this takes the cake.
Clearly you're insane and we should all ingore these blatant anti-Tanker rantings.
.
Got to say my experience is rather at odds with many.
Squishu brutes? Well my underslotted Dark Armor Brute is kinda squishy in certain situations, but that has more to do with stun resistant mobs (negating Oppressive Gloom), or stacked to hit debuffs (making Dark Regeneration chancy). My willpower brute doesn't seem squishy at all, and I do a lot of overly aggressive, potentially ill advised stuff. And FYI, I have no IO sets.
Chasing Fury? Perhaps if you had one of those really slow animating sets like Axe I could see that, but I've never experienced it. I don't know, but as I get rolling mobs that used to take 3-4 hits, now take 2-3, or even 1 if I can manage to keep Death Shroud up.
Perhaps the best thing, in general, playing on villains as a brute over a tanker in heroes, is most of the time villains don't expect you to save them. I'll take and hold most of the aggro, even on my tauntless willpower brute, but it's a relief not to have the "Shut up and Meat Shield/Taunt Bot" mentality you occasionally get heroside. (I quit kinetics and moved to brutes to avoid the SB MEH! mentality).
But don't care what someone else plays on a team so long as the play half way intelligently. I don't care if the tanker/brute scraps and holds no aggro so long as they don't needless create havoc and over aggro I'm good to go.
YMMV
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I've teamed with many Brutes on ITF's and frankly I've found them to generally be squishier than some Scrappers, to say nothing of a true tanker.
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And yes I've team with many of Tanks on a ITF that were squishiers then my Scrappers so your point is? As others have said it is the player not the AT. I have seen a lot of Tank just suck and I have seen a lot of good Tanks. But if I'm assuming that both are good and well build that I will pick the Brute every time to play with.
"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time"- Chesty Puller US Marine Corps
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Chasing Fury? Perhaps if you had one of those really slow animating sets like Axe I could see that, but I've never experienced it.
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I have an Axe/Shield Brute that does not seem to have problems with Fury. I run to a group and smack one in the head, run to next group and repeat. Once I have a good mob going the Fury bar fills up in a hurry. In gives me such twisted joy to see an opponents health bar drop 50 to 75 percent with one good whack! The hard part was controlling the End output. Once that was under control, thank you End Redux and Stamina, said Brute turned into a killing machine.
As for my preference, I like teaming so Tanks are my favorite option.
To me, the glaring problem with Tank vs Brutes is this:
Would you rather have three brutes or three tanks? Tanks fulfill a limited role, rather than additive (DPS) or multiplicative (Most support).
It really would depend on what I want them for, if it was damage then I would much prefer to play and team with a Brute, if it was aggro control I would rather play or team with a Tanker. I generally prefer Hero ATs so 9 times out of 10 I would rather have the hero. In saying that if it is for damage I would rather have a scrapper (I know they weren't part of the question, but I had to add that for my own mental well being in preferring Heroes)
Playing: since I Solo so much, Brute, although my lvl 47 Inv/SS Tanker is quite fun, but for soloing the Brute is just a bit better.
Playing with: Doesn't really matter, but I play a PB alot, and I don't enjoy not using half my powers or having to constantly worry about positioning because of a Melee Toon complaining about all the Scattering and Knockback. "Don't mess up my neat little wads!" Tank Players seem to be a bit worse about this than Brutes
Tanker. Brutes are just another squishy AT.
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Let me preface this by saying I'm a blueside player; I've never played a villain past level 15. With that said, I have teamed with several high level Brutes on various ITF's.
To play, Tanker. I've tried Brutes to the mid-teens (highest I've gotten anything redside) and I find Fury to be detrimental to survivability. Brutes are way too unpredictable; I know exactly what my tankers can do, and they'll do it in any situation. The Fury mechanic causes too much extreme variation in ability. And, of course, Brutes don't have the aggro handling abilities of a good tanker.
To play with, assuming I'm NOT playing one of my tanks, definitely a Tank, provided he's competent. Absent a competent tanker give me a good Scrapper any day. I've teamed with many Brutes on ITF's and frankly I've found them to generally be squishier than some Scrappers, to say nothing of a true tanker. I haven't ever teamed with a Brute who didn't decide to run off and taste the floor. Tanks are much more team friendly.
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Perhaps you are falling into the error of assuming that brutes are supposed to be tankers. That is what is sounds like to me. Not everyone plays their brute like a red tank. Some do, but some don't. One reason why brutes may end up over their heads is that people expect the brute to tank. I have been in situations on a brute where people stood around, expected me to herd or something, and watched me die under the hammer of a mob. I think some brute players may expect a team to descend on a mob at once instead of waiting for them to establish aggro. Brutes are not tankers. Stop expecting them to tank. Once you accept brutes for what they do and what they are- neither scrapper nor tank, things roll more smoothly.
I also think you fail to realize that in the absence of a tank, and sometimes even while a tank is present, a brute is often capable of pulling a good amount of aggro onto himself. That being said, yes, you may notice a brute attracting a much larger amount of attacks to himself and even dying more than a scrapper might in any given situation. Just look at the aggro auras on a brute vs aggro aura on a scrapper- I don't know the numbers behind the two, but logic stands that the brute aura is stronger. Meaning he will get more attention. Look at the taunt. Brutes get a weaker version of tanker taunt, meanwhile, scrappers get a version so far removed it has to be called confront.
But since you have said yourself that you have never played a villain past lvl 15 I wouldn't expect you to have seen very many well built/played brutes. Not all brutes participate in co-op content like ITF. What you may have encountered may have just been a poorly built brute, a poorly played brute, or maybe you shoehorned him into the role of being a substitute tanker. Or maybe he was just the victim of a faceplant- it happens to all of us every now and then.
I will make this statement in direct response to your clause on if a tanker is absent and taking a scrapper, in the same scenario, I would take a brute over a scrapper any day. Given a competent playstyle, outside buff for survivability, he will be at the tanker mitigation cap, providing group aggro instead of the single target aggro control a scrapper can provide, and in the heat of the moment, he will be dishing out comparable damage to your scrapper. So if team wants a tank, team can't find a tank, I would prefer team find a smart and appropriate brute (who is aware of your expectation of him to be a pseudo-tank) to fill the role over finding a scrapper to be a substitute tank. Before I looked to a scrapper to fill the role of aggro control, there are much more capable entities like controllers and dominators who can do this better.
Bottom line- a brute is from the other side of the tracks and used to the playstyle of the redside. Teams arguably are more fast paced and they tend to steamroll content differently than blueside. So while you may be used to a playstyle from hero side, the brute may be used to another style of play.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
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I don't know the numbers behind the two, but logic stands that the brute aura is stronger.
[/ QUOTE ]
Brute Invincibility:
+16.875s Taunt (mag 4) Raid mob (like Hami), Must hit at -20%
Effect does not stack from same caster
+16.875s Taunt (mag 4) PvE only, not Raid mob (like Hami)
Effect does not stack from same caster
Scrap Invincibility:
+16.875s Taunt (mag 3) Raid mob (like Hami), Must hit at -20%
+16.875s Taunt (mag 3) PvE only, not Raid mob (like Hami)
Tank Invincibility:
+16.875s Taunt (mag 4) Raid mob (like Hami), Must hit at -20%
Effect does not stack from same caster
+16.875s Taunt (mag 4) PvE only, not Raid mob (like Hami)
Effect does not stack from same caster
If City of Data is accurate, brute auras have a higher mag but don't stack. The fact that neither brute nor tank invinc stacks leads me to believe that the lack of the no stack rule on scrappers is an error.
However, scrapper WP RttC is also lacking the no stack rule.
Scrapper FA Blazing Aura has no taunt listed at all. Brute and tanker versions both do.
Strange that.
Be well, people of CoH.
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(I reject the whole "mobs die in 10 seconds" mentality; they can drop that fast, but there are too many instances of fights lasting a while for me to buy it's the standard. Besides, if a spawn drops that fast, then the extra damage a Brute has is likely overkill.)
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Well stated, and I agree completely. When doing co-op content on high end teams without a tank, I often find that the only ATs who do complain about the lack of taunt or apparent "meatshield" behavior are predictably blue ATs, but those complaints are unheard of if a person is experienced enough to have really mastered his art and use his given tools with potent efficacy. On such teams, things roll pretty darn smoothly.
I will say this as well: I think that the added survivability that tankers have is in fact overkill in much of the game. There are a few circumstances in which a tank is just pretty handy to have on staff, but much of the content of the game doesn't require one to achieve that level of survivability. More importantly, it seems that tankers achieved this survivability at the expense of some ability to fluently deal damage.
(I am an avid lurker of both tanker and brute forums btw- so don't be mad if I have paraphrased a few poster's points here... hehe).
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
[ QUOTE ]
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Tanks alreaedy do this. Taunt for Tanks causes -75% range on all foes, often drawing them into mellee range. Taunt for Brutes is limited to debuffing only the target hit. The end result is that Tanks "clump" spawns much better than Brutes.
[/ QUOTE ]
You are apparently incorrect:
Tank taunt: Max target 5 Autohit Foe
+41s Taunt (mag 4) PvE only
+10.25s Taunt (mag 4) PvP only, Not auto-hit
Range -75% for 12s [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
Unknown Null +1
Brute Taunt: Max targets 5 Autohit Foe
+41s Taunt (mag 4) PvE only
+10.25s Taunt (mag 4) PvP only, Not auto-hit
Range -75% for 12s [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
Unknown Null +1
The two taunts are identical in every way.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for this information in both of your quantitative posts, BillZBubba. I guess I was wrong, brutes do get identical taunt to tanks. I suppose the missing element I wasn't weighing was gauntlet.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
[ QUOTE ]
Tanker. Brutes are just another squishy AT.
[/ QUOTE ]
Pfft- tell that to all defender/corruptor/controller/dominator superteams that roll through content with speed and safety that would make both tanks and brutes sad. I think that is the tanker mentality that turns off a few players from all over. The tank is not the hub of the team, and it is not needed for any team to be successful. The only element a team needs to survive is an inherent that many players in the game have across the board: strategy and intelligence.
With that said; it is a fact that a brute can achieve the same mitigation cap that a tank can, so your statement won't mean much if a brute has just a couple of buffs tossed his way. He will be as capable a meat shield as a tank while dealing damage a tank would never be able to touch.
And please don't dismiss the effect of outside buffs in this particular discussion, because the question deals explicitly with teams. In teams, there is a very high likelihood buffs will be had.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps you are falling into the error of assuming that brutes are supposed to be tankers. That is what is sounds like to me. Not everyone plays their brute like a red tank. Some do, but some don't. One reason why brutes may end up over their heads is that people expect the brute to tank. I have been in situations on a brute where people stood around, expected me to herd or something, and watched me die under the hammer of a mob. I think some brute players may expect a team to descend on a mob at once instead of waiting for them to establish aggro. Brutes are not tankers. Stop expecting them to tank. Once you accept brutes for what they do and what they are- neither scrapper nor tank, things roll more smoothly.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually when I'm teamed with a Brute on an ITF I expect them to fill the role of a Scrapper, not the tank... maybe pick up a bit of "off-tank" duties. Still, I see them faceplant more frequently than most Scrappers... that may just be bad builds or bad players though since my experience with them is limited to ITF's and the occasional LGTF.
Now I know how things can go south quickly... the last ITF I did we had an Ice/EM tanker and while he was competent he also ended up face down rather frequently... all the -def flying was apparently destroying his defenses.
[ QUOTE ]
I will make this statement in direct response to your clause on if a tanker is absent and taking a scrapper, in the same scenario, I would take a brute over a scrapper any day. Given a competent playstyle, outside buff for survivability, he will be at the tanker mitigation cap, providing group aggro instead of the single target aggro control a scrapper can provide, and in the heat of the moment, he will be dishing out comparable damage to your scrapper. So if team wants a tank, team can't find a tank, I would prefer team find a smart and appropriate brute (who is aware of your expectation of him to be a pseudo-tank) to fill the role over finding a scrapper to be a substitute tank. Before I looked to a scrapper to fill the role of aggro control, there are much more capable entities like controllers and dominators who can do this better.
[/ QUOTE ]
I suppose my preference of a Scrapper over a Brute is mainly one of familiarity... I know Scrappers quite well having taken three of them to 45+, two of them to 50. While the Brute may be potentially more powerful they need time to get to that level; a Scrapper is going to be more constant in his abilities. Both obviously benefit from outside buffs... the Brute does have a bit more headroom for +resistance buffs; both have the same effective ceiling of 45% for +defense buffs which are considerably more common.
I generally wouldn't expect a Scrapper to tank; absent a tanker I'd plan on using debuffs and controls in place of the tanker's aggro abilities. Not to say the Scrapper can't do the job... I've had to a few times on my Scrappers when the tanker can't be bothered.
[ QUOTE ]
Bottom line- a brute is from the other side of the tracks and used to the playstyle of the redside. Teams arguably are more fast paced and they tend to steamroll content differently than blueside. So while you may be used to a playstyle from hero side, the brute may be used to another style of play.
[/ QUOTE ]
You probably do have a point about my admitted lack of familiarity with the Brute AT; although when I'm tanking I've always pushed the pace as much as the team can handle... a large part of the skill in being a good tank is knowing just where that maximum pace that they can handle lies. I've been on slow, cautious teams and I've been on warp speed steamroller teams... I imagine most redside team probably sit somewhere between those two extremes.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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As far as people blaming death on "lack of tankage" or complaining about a brute or tank not using taunt, you probably need to learn to survive on your own instead of depending on other ATs and people to protect you.
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I disagree, because teammates should try to assist one another. Of course, no tank, brute or other AT can save someone who's playing like a moron, but for my part, a team should be more than eight people soloing on the same map.
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Brute all the way. Every time I try to pick back up a tank I get bored and switch to a brute.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm.
I ask must ask, would improving the Tanker's aggro handling abilities or giving them increased mez effects make them more interesting and less boring to you?
And if not, what would?
I extend that same question to everyone else so far who's answered Brute.
.
[/ QUOTE ] I'll play! I would pick a brute hands down. If tanks did more damage I would play them more.
If i am teamed with a training wheels team, IE squishies run in 1st and die.. a tanker is better gauntlet is cool for that. But as far as fun with a informed team Broot hands down, theirs nothing to me better than a brute with therm or kin support, with a kin you don't even need fury but it makes things sick. Just last night, a kin kept me up around 720% damage bonus.
The funny thing is, even though you seem like one of the whiners that got the changes made in the first place, you're probably still bad..------Macskull on Crop_of_shaolin
http://ravens-wins.mybrute.com