I don't ever expect things to go back the way they were. I don't expect things to get better or the devs to listen. I do expect me to correct peoples perceptions that anything expect game speed has really changed.
All the devs really did was slow down enough that people still think they stand a chance, when in fact almost every fight now is decided by sets and numbers per side before the first attack is ever thrown.
For the record I said while testing this in i13 beta while testing this I was 100% sure this is exactly what the devs wanted for changes. While I stick around and have even been enjoying myself in pvp of late, it makes me a little sad they switched me fom finesse toons and buffers to stalkers and brutes. So much of the skills gained in the old pvp is wasted now and I believe the number one reason a good number of players who were good at i12 pvp don't like the new pvp.
Duel me.
I will work on my sig pic more when I have time.
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All the devs really did was slow down enough that people still think they stand a chance, when in fact almost every fight now is decided by sets and numbers per side before the first attack is ever thrown.
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So if the devs slow it down further - with 'nerfs' - you'd hate it even more right?
Q: You guys wanna know what would make pvp fun again?
A: If you pre I13 babys would just shut the heck up and play instead of cry about your precious I12 pvp.
Cant you see the devs changed it to bring more people to the PVP portion of the game. I13 tried to lvl out the playing field a bit. More people tried pvp some stayed some left. I14 added pvp IO's to give people a reason to come and pvp and get a reward that can only be dropped from killing other players. More people showed up.
Lets see what happens next. Crying about the old days get you no where if you dont like it leave the game follow your little buddies that went before you. ADAPT
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All the devs really did was slow down enough that people still think they stand a chance, when in fact almost every fight now is decided by sets and numbers per side before the first attack is ever thrown.
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Numbers per side should carry a lot of weight.
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So much of the skills gained in the old pvp is wasted now and I believe the number one reason a good number of players who were good at i12 pvp don't like the new pvp.
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Skill still wins out. I13 just separated the skilled players from the ones who thought they were good but in fact were just riding the fotm gravy train.
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Cant you see the devs changed it to bring more people to the PVP portion of the game. I13 tried to lvl out the playing field a bit. More people tried pvp some stayed some left. I14 added pvp IO's to give people a reason to come and pvp and get a reward that can only be dropped from killing other players. More people showed up.
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Where are these people these changes are made for? i13 did not level any playing field. There are still builds that vastly outperform anything else and teams are very limited in the sets they use.
PvP IO's did not bring more people, they brought more farmers. More farming does not equate to more pvp.
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Skill still wins out. I13 just separated the skilled players from the ones who thought they were good but in fact were just riding the fotm gravy train.
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This isn't true most of the time. Now, more than ever, the fotm gravy train wins over skill. At least before, any build could compete depending on the players skill. Now it doesn't matter. Real balanced right there.
I guess one point I was thinking about and trying make out but failed is that the old PvP characters were very cookie cutter builds for example:
Blaster (Fire/Energy)
Controller(Ill/Storm)
Defender(Emp) or (Rad/Psi for duels)
Scrapper (Spines/Regen)
Tanker (Ice/Energy)
Brute (Energy/WP)
Corruptor (Thermal)
Dom (Mind/Fire)
Mastermind(Thugs/Dark)
Stalkers (EM/Nin)
Well in the new PvP I see FoTM AT's, but the Powersets are different. The ability to chose an AT and pick any powersets you like for PvP is a step in the right direction. I never thought of bringing my Archery/Devices to the PvP zones in the old PvP, but in the new PvP I can actually PvP now. I am not a great PvPer, however I have been doing it for 3 years and I see how things have changed. If this game didnt have PvP I would have quit a long time ago. I get bored of doing the same missions over and over again to lvl a character. The PvP(even though its not the greatest) is the reason I am still here.
lvl 50 - Elec/WP/Mu Mastery Stalker, lvl 50 - Dark/EA/Soul Mastery Stalker, lvl 50 - EM/Nin/Soul Mastery Stalker
New Toons
lvl 21 - StJ/WP Stalker
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I guess one point I was thinking about and trying make out but failed is that the old PvP characters were very cookie cutter builds for example:
Blaster (Fire/Energy)
Controller(Ill/Storm)
Defender(Emp) or (Rad/Psi for duels)
Scrapper (Spines/Regen)
Tanker (Ice/Energy)
Brute (Energy/WP)
Corruptor (Thermal)
Dom (Mind/Fire)
Mastermind(Thugs/Dark)
Stalkers (EM/Nin)
Well in the new PvP I see FoTM AT's, but the Powersets are different. The ability to chose an AT and pick any powersets you like for PvP is a step in the right direction. I never thought of bringing my Archery/Devices to the PvP zones in the old PvP, but in the new PvP I can actually PvP now. I am not a great PvPer, however I have been doing it for 3 years and I see how things have changed. If this game didnt have PvP I would have quit a long time ago. I get bored of doing the same missions over and over again to lvl a character. The PvP(even though its not the greatest) is the reason I am still here.
[/ QUOTE ]This difference is before indeed it's true certain builds had a disadvantage(they still do now) but a skilled player could still make that build look good.
All a fotm is a build that is performing well, and alot of players gravitate to it looking for success. Peoples say builds like pb's can even pvp now, but before this garbage came out i new of a few good players that would wreck you with their pb's. Hense i used good players, not little eight year old johnny mashing buttons ,killing the whole zone now he's awsome.
I say this jokingly but sadly it's true, i let my little eight year old bro play my blaster in rv before and he scored a few kills, it kinda sickened me. This is the same lil bro i get on for mashing my 360 buttons to hard when he plays and he's killing folk in coh pvp even got me a recipe.
I wish the devs that make these decisions for us actually pvp'd, i can see pve related changes because the pve all the time, they even admitted doing teams and stuff. But play testing pvp changes with a few of your coworkers in internal test, do not equate to pvp knowledge. What is pvp knowledge, is the wish list all the actual pvp'rs took time to make to help balance and make things better, but they ignored it and did this mess.
The funny thing is, even though you seem like one of the whiners that got the changes made in the first place, you're probably still bad..------Macskull on Crop_of_shaolin
http://ravens-wins.mybrute.com
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Cant you see the devs changed it to bring more people to the PVP portion of the game. I13 tried to lvl out the playing field a bit. More people tried pvp some stayed some left. I14 added pvp IO's to give people a reason to come and pvp and get a reward that can only be dropped from killing other players. More people showed up.
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There are more people PvPing now? Please show me where, I'd love to see this. Except for maybe a few nights a week when there is some semblance of a "scheduled" PvP event going on, almost every zone on every server but Freedom is empty or has a few people who are only there for the badges or temp powers and will go crying to their mommy if you actually try to PvP them.
Moreover, where are the people that I14's PvP IO drops brought in? I saw a spike in zone population for about a week - maybe not even that long - after I14 launched. Now the zones are mostly back to the ghost towns they've been since the I13 launch, because the people who are really interested in the PvP IOs are just farming their second accounts in the arena. But, hey, if datamining shows the devs that there are more people in the arena, it's a success! Nevermind how those numbers were actually generated.
You can tell people to adapt all you want. Let's say you own a Ferrari for four years, and you bring it into the shop to have it looked at. You come back a few days later and they hand you a tricycle with one wheel flat. You tell the shop owner you're going to the Better Business Bureau to file a complaint, and they laugh at you and say "adapt." Isn't that a bit ridiculous? It's the same thing that's happened here. Why did many of the top-skill PvPers leave? Because they didn't want to adapt to a system that wasn't fun. I still think PvP is fun, but it just sucks horribly compared to what we used to have.
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Skill still wins out. I13 just separated the skilled players from the ones who thought they were good but in fact were just riding the fotm gravy train.
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Now, more than ever, build is more important than skill. I mean, I did well on a flying Katana/Regen Scrapper back in the day. If I tried to bring that same build into the current version of PvP, it'd get wrecked. My Earth/Storm (hardly a FotM) was good in old PvP, both for dueling and zone, now it's largely garbage. Same goes for my Storm/Sonic. Now I'm pretty much forced to play FotM toons if I want to keep up - due to the glaring imbalances this issues has presented, if you're not outperforming everything else, you can't compete. Period.
One of the stated goals was to improve AT and powerset viability in PvP. So for an example let's take a look at the powersets or build combinations in I12 that could work well in the hands of a skilled player in a dueling situation.
Blaster: Fire, Psi, Ice, or Sonic, with Energy, Devices, or Elec
Controller: Illusion, Mind, Ice, with Storm, Rad, or TA
Defender: Cold, Rad, Storm, TA, with Sonic, Dark, or Psi
Scrapper: BS, Fire, Spines, with Regen, SR, or WP
Tanker: Ice, WP, Fire, with EM or SS
Peacebringer: worked fine, provided built properly and played well
Warshade: lolz Warshades
Brutes: EM, SS, Stone, with Elec, Fire, or WP
Corruptor: Fire, Ice, Sonic, Rad, with Cold, Rad, Storm, or Therm
Dominator: Fire, Ice, Mind, with Fire, Ice, Elec, or Psi
MM: Thugs, Ninjas, Necro, with Storm, Poison, Traps, or TA
Stalker: EM or Spines, with Nin or Regen
Soldier: Bane
Widow: NW or Fort
And now, in I13/I14:
Blaster: Psi, Sonic, Arch, with Energy or Devices
Controller: Mind, Fire, or Illusion, with Therm
Defender: Cold with Sonic or Dark
Scrapper: Spines, BS, or Fire, with Regen or Fire
Tanker: Fire with SS
Peacebringer: see I12
Warshade: lolz Warshades
Brute: SS with Fire
Corruptor: Sonic or Rad, with Cold or Therm
Dominator: Mind or Fire, with Fire or Elec
MM: Thugs, Nin, or Necro, with Poison or Pain
Stalker: Elec or Spines, with WP, Nin, or Regen
Soldiers: lolz Soldiers
Widows: lolz Widows
So, with very few exceptions, the changes that were intended to promote more open PvP actually limited the sets that are able to compete.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
i could probably add some sets but for most part i agree set choice is kind of limited now..
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Soldiers: lolz Soldiers
Widows: lolz Widows
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Why dmg nerf when everyone is res caped anyway it makes me more QQ than EM nerf in i12....
Maybe if we make WoW crash devs would stop RPing elves and would find time for us ^_^?
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i could probably add some sets but for most part i agree set choice is kind of limited now..
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Soldiers: lolz Soldiers
Widows: lolz Widows
[/ QUOTE ]
Why dmg nerf when everyone is res caped anyway it makes me more QQ than EM nerf in i12....
Maybe if we make WoW crash devs would stop RPing elves and would find time for us ^_^?
[/ QUOTE ]Let's take a trip in the way back machine................ ET had like a 2 sec activation and stalkers would flat out crush most builds if they weren't prepared, So a few rp'rs, badge hunters, carebears came to the zone and got wrecked. My Scrapper, blaster, troller, tanker, can kill tons of npc's ,solo any mish in any setting with out any hassle. How is it I'm wtfpwnd so easily by these em/ stalkers waaa waaa waaa
Castle at home reading carebear cry mail
i hear your tears oh mighty carebears i'll nerf ET it's has to be powerful because the datamining says so. Won't fix placate but i'll nerf some stuff :P
Oh plz nerf gods those ice tankers are unkillible by me and my concept toon plz nerf them some. DONE!!! But i won't fix fury :P
Oh my you gave the vill side these horrible veats, and not only does my concept toon get wrecked, but they can even kill blasters, this can't be right? Not only am i going to nerf everyone and everything with horrible DR, but i'm a nerf veats and make them widows:lolz.
Lets see what can i do worse than DR? I'll wreck elustivity so everyone can hit them very easily now, you won't even need any extra tohit when i'm done. Next even though the only toons widows can kill anyway is squishies i'm a give them an added 40% resist to all in pvp in addition to w/e shields they get from their epics. And just incase the widows try and adapt i'm a nerf their damage on top of the buffs i gave their primary targets mwuahahaha mwahahahaha.
The funny thing is, even though you seem like one of the whiners that got the changes made in the first place, you're probably still bad..------Macskull on Crop_of_shaolin
http://ravens-wins.mybrute.com
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i could probably add some sets but for most part i agree set choice is kind of limited now..
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Soldiers: lolz Soldiers
Widows: lolz Widows
[/ QUOTE ]
Why dmg nerf when everyone is res caped anyway it makes me more QQ than EM nerf in i12....
Maybe if we make WoW crash devs would stop RPing elves and would find time for us ^_^?
[/ QUOTE ]Let's take a trip in the way back machine................ ET had like a 2 sec activation and stalkers would flat out crush most builds if they weren't prepared, So a few rp'rs, badge hunters, carebears came to the zone and got wrecked. My Scrapper, blaster, troller, tanker, can kill tons of npc's ,solo any mish in any setting with out any hassle. How is it I'm wtfpwnd so easily by these em/ stalkers waaa waaa waaa
Castle at home reading carebear cry mail
i hear your tears oh mighty carebears i'll nerf ET it's has to be powerful because the datamining says so. Won't fix placate but i'll nerf some stuff :P
Oh plz nerf gods those ice tankers are unkillible by me and my concept toon plz nerf them some. DONE!!! But i won't fix fury :P
Oh my you gave the vill side these horrible veats, and not only does my concept toon get wrecked, but they can even kill blasters, this can't be right? Not only am i going to nerf everyone and everything with horrible DR, but i'm a nerf veats and make them widows:lolz.
Lets see what can i do worse than DR? I'll wreck elustivity so everyone can hit them very easily now, you won't even need any extra tohit when i'm done. Next even though the only toons widows can kill anyway is squishies i'm a give them an added 40% resist to all in pvp in addition to w/e shields they get from their epics. And just incase the widows try and adapt i'm a nerf their damage on top of the buffs i gave their primary targets mwuahahaha mwahahahaha.
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In order to fix pvp, you would need to start with this person's mentality. I can't think of any sane, rational, balanced person that would want to deal with a person like this by choice.
That done, you would have to change the game redside back to City of Villains. My brother poked his head into RV yesterday, and I asked him who all was in there. He shook his head and said we were back to "City of Stalkers".
Nice.
Most of the time when I /whoall places like Siren's Call I get only Fortunatas. In RV, it's some elec/therm corruptors and more fortunatas, with some leftover spines/regen stalkers and bane spiders.
lolvariety.
Post deleted by The_Reactor
Post deleted by The_Reactor
That was the longest post I've ever seen that amounted to "I have no idea what I'm talking about".
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
To the OP, I totally agree. We would be better of going back to i12 pvp. The zones are completely empty all the time, at least on my server. It's pretty clear that pvp is in NO way better than it was before and is actually worse. The one time I went into sirens since i12, my brute got pwnd into oblivion by flying blasters who I cant touch.... I cant see what was accomplished through this
"People are like stained-glass windows.
They sparkle and shine when the sun is out,
but when the darkness sets in their true beauty is revealed only if there is
light from within"
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Castle at home reading carebear cry mail
i hear your tears oh mighty carebears i'll nerf ET it's has to be powerful because the datamining says so. Won't fix placate but i'll nerf some stuff :P
Oh plz nerf gods those ice tankers are unkillible by me and my concept toon plz nerf them some. DONE!!! But i won't fix fury :P
Oh my you gave the vill side these horrible veats, and not only does my concept toon get wrecked, but they can even kill blasters, this can't be right? Not only am i going to nerf everyone and everything with horrible DR, but i'm a nerf veats and make them widows:lolz.
Lets see what can i do worse than DR? I'll wreck elustivity so everyone can hit them very easily now, you won't even need any extra tohit when i'm done. Next even though the only toons widows can kill anyway is squishies i'm a give them an added 40% resist to all in pvp in addition to w/e shields they get from their epics. And just incase the widows try and adapt i'm a nerf their damage on top of the buffs i gave their primary targets mwuahahaha mwahahahaha.
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Hmmm...I still play the exact same toons I've always played in pvp: my nrg/nrg blaster, my MA/SR scrapper, my rad/rad defender, my human only PB, my empath/psi defender, my nrg/dev blaster, my fire/nrg tanker, and I just added an ice/storm controller (without hurricane) to the mix.
I remember the old pvp and how unbalanced it was. The toggle dropping and the unresistable damage. I remember how devastating the old ET was, and it was unfairly overpowered. I remember the old 40 foot range on spines and how everyone would be knocked out of the sky in old pvp (that was soooooooooooooo lame). I remember holds being waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too long. I remember how unresistable assassin strike and the unresistable blaster damage was. I remember how fallout on my defender was uber, how I messed up 2 MMs, 3 brutes, and 4 stalkers with it (and the Vangaurd Medal FTW!!!) one time, because it was a debuff, hold, huge damage AND was unresistable. I remember how the widows were unhittable, did damage with which most people didn't have any resistance, and how overpowered they were.
I played through all of this stuff. I remember the times I would get killed over and over and over, by the same three powers on an enemy, and I could still tell the player had no skill, but they thought they were the bomb. I remember the players that I could tell did have skill, and they would be good tough to fight regardless of whether they had a FoTM build or a 'off flavor' build. They were still good; they understood tactics and how move in and out of combat. They didn't always win, but they didn't lose a lot either.
I also remember something that players like the above guy don't realize or won't accept. When a player on one toon has to do a huge number of things to get a win when another toon simply has to push 3 buttons, that's broken. Toggle-based builds are viable in PvP. In old PvP, players kept toggles to a minimum, because players want to attack and defend themselves against each other NOT attack and defend their power tray. I got killed a lot, I never won more than I lost, but I also refuse to make a spines/regen or an ice/em tanker for pvp, not because I don't want to pvp with them, it's simply taste: I like playing flying characters and with old pvp, I still played flying toons, and I suffered with them. But that's what I wanted to play. And a spiner or ice tank or ice blaster doesn't interest me...I repeat, it just ain't my cup of tea. The players that play them builds love 'em, well, I love my flying scrapper thank you very much.
Villain Epic ATs are wonderful. The devs did a great job of making them very good. Unfortunately in the old PvP, the hero ATs really stunk in PvP, unless they had an empathy defender with them. The entire heroside was totally dependent on having empaths. Once the empaths left the zone, the heroes were at a marked disadvantage, this too was broken.
I laughed at all the players that complained about ED and the GDN; because I knew way back then, the devs had something coming that was wonderful: IOs. And now I laugh at the pvp whiners; the devs actually do know what they are doing. PvP is fair now. The players that are complaining are simply the players that had an unfair advantage in pvp, not because they were better (they were definitely NOT better) at pvp, it was simply they got a 'built in' advantage just because they chose certain powers with which to pvp. Players like me, that build their character according to their 'character conception' rather than always taking phase shift, because it allows escape, and always taking hybernate, for the same reason, or taking the sharks pool, just because its 'the pvp thing to do', play a 'notch down' in power because we want to play our characters in pvp the way we want to play, not because we have to have the same sets all the 'clone' pvp players use.
So, in conclusion, if you make a FoTM, more power too you. But expect players, especially champions pen and paper players, to take your statements with a grain of salt. Because when I see a FoTM in pvp with a toon name that has nothing to do with comic books built just like every other FoTM, I know you aren't very good. Or when a player makes a toon whose name is intended to insult other players, you wouldn't last 15 minutes in my champions campaign, you got nothin'. So the players that are complaining that new pvp is horrible...good for you, there are a lot of other things in the game to do. Have fun.
But there are players out there that love their characters and love pvp. And those players want to play. They don't care if they win or lose, but they do want a fair fight and know that the outcome is not predetermined before the first shot is even fired. And if you try to put words in my mouth, or flame me for what I'm saying, I'll laugh at you for that too. I know what my toons can do and win or lose I also can tell if another player is any good. Just like Seraph said in the Matrix: "You can never trully know someone, until you fight them."
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lol
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Post deleted by Moderator 08
I had my speculations earlier but now I am thoroughly convinced that The_Reactor is one of the Devs.
A very sad story about War Witch and the neglected kitty. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=219670
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Black_Barrier
Guess it's hard to click while actively trying to keep the drool away from the keyboard...
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Post deleted by The_Reactor
Post deleted by The_Reactor
*DOUBLE POST*
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That has to be the "stupidest" thing I've ever read in my entire life.
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Good for you. LOL
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Yarly. Cos the poster didn't make sense.
Post deleted by Moderator 08
Guys, just don't bother nothing gonna happen, nothing gonna change (except more nerfing)...devs are AE and go rogue happy why would they care about lol pvp....give moar packs and fluff to RPers that is all they care about.