[ QUOTE ]
Instead they allow the user to turn off "their" xp gains if they feel they are leveling too fast. The devs don't make any provisions for those players that want to control "others" xp gains, since the devs themselves have that covered just fine.
[/ QUOTE ]
If there is no policy to remove farms based on rate of xp gain, then you are correct.
If the Devs already have and are enforcing such a policy, then I see no harm in publicizing, or even enforcing, that number.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
i have to say and it might have been already in this thread but i don't have time to go over it all. if you choose to farm do it, if you don't like it don't do it. you pay your money to play the game and if thats what you like to do then fine. as for the "idiots" that hate everything except what they like, keep your pie-hole shut and play the game the way you like too. if you are paying for me to play then you can say what you want, but untill that happens [censored]. ty
@Canadian Canuck @Canadian Canuck2
Like I said the devs have xp/inf/merits/tickets/salvage etc.. under control and there is no pressing need to change anything at this time.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
[ QUOTE ]
One might think that some time prior to this game becoming 5 years old, the Devs might have developed some maximum number of, say, xp/hour that they are willing to allow. Maybe they had some number in mind during the design phase.
[/ QUOTE ]
And they've changed their minds more than once: XP smoothing was an example of them changing their minds. The problem, of course, is when they change their minds upward, they are heroes. WHen they change their minds downward, they have a riot. Because the devs don't actually have the "right" to change their minds as the game or circumstances surrounding the game change, or just because they change their attitude towards rewards in general, they cannot allow their decision-making to be exposed to ratcheting.
Plus, you're assuming there is in fact a singular number, such that *anything* under that number is ok. It might be that if occasionally it happens that a few players hit N XP/hour, that's not a problem, but if everyone hits N-1 XP/hour, all the time, that's bad. What you want is some sort of expression of the entire decision-space of all permutations of all possible reward rates as a function of time and across player population, and what the devs would decide under those circumstances. That's simply not possible to express reasonably, even if the devs could express it to themselves.
A lot of dev-decisions are at least partially governed by consensus - even *allowing* ANY rewards in the MA missions was such a decision: Positron said so himself (and its not publicly known which side Positron himself was on). Because they are consensus decisions, just the question of who is working for NC/Paragon Studios at the time is potentially relevant to that decision at that moment in time.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
There are a number of good points on both sides of the issue here.
I have to confess, I've farmed myself. I wanted to play with a friend of mine, and I ended up getting almost 17 levels in 45 minutes. (Level 3 to level 19)
What I found, later, was that when I hit level 20, I was unable to find a team to help me get my cape. Or I was unable to find a team to help me do regular missions. Hell, I'm unable to find a team to help me do AE non-farm missions.
I love the Architect. I see great things coming from the Architect. But it seems that the only people in /broadcast, the only people teaming, are teaming for farms. I'm forced to farm if I don't want to solo. And I suck at soloing.
My two copper pieces.
[ QUOTE ]
Ah, you both are making the common fallacy of "I know it when I see it."
[/ QUOTE ]
Can't I just report it and let a GM decide? 
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Yes, because a perfectly legitimate use of the game is to create effortless kills that are unable to fight back against you so you can move your little blue bar without any risk whatsoever.
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Perfect? farm from it haha see what I did...besides since when does what other people do affect on how you play the game? Wait don't tell me your one of those others who complain because they can't find a team? or find a group who is doing what you want to do but because of MA they're not. Friends could solve that issue or maybe a decent SG. Oh maybe you solo? >_>;
We want to play the game how we want to play the game, if not then what was the point of i14? would of been better off just giving us a bunch of new mission arcs to do right?
Farming has it's ups and downs like in any game and I'm sure it's people like you who bombard the DEV's with..
"omg the tree is overlapping the rock!!!"
*Reports*
"I sure hope I get my bug badge *squels*"
That they get sick and tired of and just don't even wanna deal with it they just send you to the forums in hopes you would just shut up and complain there instead of directly to them. 
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, basically, yes. As far as the infinite farm missions people keep making go, they do effect me in at least two ways, one immediate and one potential.
The immediate factor is that of mission bloat. I'm not sure what the ratio of farm-to-story arcs is, but since (A) everyone and their dog seems to be making farms, (B) farm arcs take much, much less effort to create than story arcs, and (C) I suspect the farm-makers publish the same arc multiple times, the actual story arcs quickly get lost off the first few pages. That makes it difficult to get your arc noticed, and it makes it difficult (even more than it already is, due to poor search capability) to find a good story arc among the throng.
The potential problem is this: with the new boxed version of CoH out and its availability on Steam, there will (hopefully) be many new players joining CoH. If these new players get drawn into farms and are PLed en masse to 50, many of them will look around for a minute, shrug, and cancel their accounts. Farms bypass existing content, rather than adding additional content (which, I firmly believe, was the whole point of I14), and that's not a good way to keep customers. And if the game has more customers, the game is healthier and the devs can do more.
That's not as much of an issue for current, long-time players, but it's still an issue.
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Conversely, your RP arcs are getting in the way of me finding farm arcs more efficiently and as a farmer efficiency is key.
Short of exploits farmers have just as much right to MA as you. And you may want to consider the idea that if you are seeing a lot more farms than rp arcs then maybe more people "want" to farm than rp?
A more powerful search function could easily solve the browsing issues that people are having, though that is just one of many complaints between the sides right now.
*I'm not a farmer, but just sayin'
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QR
This whole game is farming. Doesn't matter what you are doing. AFK - farming for time logged on. Logged out - farming for dayjobs/patrol badge. Getting XP - FARMING!
[/ QUOTE ]
No, it's not. "Farming" is repeatedly doing the same mission/TF/"thingie" specifically because of some specific reward (whether it's good XP, certain badges, what have you). It's not "anything that gives you some kind of reward is farming". You're simply wrong here in your definition. There's nothing WRONG with doing it, but "everything" isn't farming.
Dec out.
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QR
This whole game is farming. Doesn't matter what you are doing. AFK - farming for time logged on. Logged out - farming for dayjobs/patrol badge. Getting XP - FARMING!
[/ QUOTE ]
No, it's not. "Farming" is repeatedly doing the same mission/TF/"thingie" specifically because of some specific reward (whether it's good XP, certain badges, what have you). It's not "anything that gives you some kind of reward is farming". You're simply wrong here in your definition. There's nothing WRONG with doing it, but "everything" isn't farming.
[/ QUOTE ]
He might be of the persuasion that believes that practically every mission in this game is so similar that someone deliberately farming a handful of maps is pretty much the same as the person playing the slightly larger handful of maps generally seen while leveling on a pug.
I'm not saying he would be right or wrong, but if action is the determinant of farming he would sort of have a leg to stand on. Certainly enough to hobble across the room. If intent is the determinant of farming then he is wrong, but last time I checked the tinfoil on my head does a decent job of keeping my intentions private.
For the record, I would personally be in favor of allowing NO xp in MA (therefor killing it off most likely) rather than keeping the amount of xp/hour that gets you in trouble secret.
I can't abide secret rules.
For Great Justice!
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[ QUOTE ]
Ah, you both are making the common fallacy of "I know it when I see it."
[/ QUOTE ]
Can't I just report it and let a GM decide?
[/ QUOTE ]
Can't I just report lame stories and let the GM decide about that?
Can't I just report mission with baddies that I feel are overkill and abusive?
Why don't we ALL just report EVERY SINGLE mission that we don't like, just to see if the devs will be OK with taking it out?
For Great Justice!
I just want to edit my sg. I want to finish this labyrinth, thats all I want to do.
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
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Can't I just report lame stories and let the GM decide about that?
Can't I just report mission with baddies that I feel are overkill and abusive?
Why don't we ALL just report EVERY SINGLE mission that we don't like, just to see if the devs will be OK with taking it out?
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, you can if you want.
Dec out.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can't I just report lame stories and let the GM decide about that?
Can't I just report mission with baddies that I feel are overkill and abusive?
Why don't we ALL just report EVERY SINGLE mission that we don't like, just to see if the devs will be OK with taking it out?
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, you can if you want.
[/ QUOTE ]
Touche - heh heh.
For Great Justice!
[ QUOTE ]
I read it as: Okay, devs' balls in your court
God I need to get my mind out of the gutter.
[/ QUOTE ]
Order in the court!!!
Bailiff, I will have the Sirloin and baked potato. Extra butter.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
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We need to be explicitly told. The only ones who would disagree are just the people who are RP snobs and don't like people playing this as a game in the first place.
[/ QUOTE ]
In other words, "If you don't agree with my position, you're just a {fill-in-the-blank} and people should pay no attention to what you say." Typical debate tactic of someone who knows they are on the losing side of an argument.
[/ QUOTE ]
sadly, both sides have been known to use it .
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In what reality did Street Farming get elliminated because of player complaints? I remember distinctly it was DEV complaints and they never nerfed street mobs they (effectively) depowered mission mobs making them more desirable. Only difference was that you got full debt outside. If you aren't dieing there is no difference in experience from when CoH went live.
Devs wanted players to play a story not just button mash street thugs. In CoV they didn't even set up zones to do street hunting like in CoH.
The same goes for the mission players were abusing. It wasn't due to player complaints but due to DEV complaints. Best example was that Power Diversification and Fire tank nerfs were announce after someone told Statesman to stop attacking mobs in a mission that he was just slowing down the Fire Tank. He apparently took a dim view of being told to guard the door.
The Devs play this game and if you team with random people you may well be playing with one. They have a vision of how the game should be played and will enforce it regardless of what "whiney" players say.
In ALL the cases the OP listed there was a LOT more whining by players after the change than before it. After the announcement of Power Diversification the wailing was crazy bad. For good or bad, if they were just going by posters complaints the game wouldn't look anything like it does.
Before you complain about whiners make sure you aren't one.
MA needs some tweeks. To say otherwise is unrealistic. Hopefully they won't go overboard with the fixes but so far the Devs have been very open to rethinking and rebalancing.
[/ QUOTE ]
You are definately correct that the dev's made changes that were more inline with how they saw the game then the complaints themselves, BUT I was one of those fire tanks you are talking about and the consensus from the "Whiners" were that they needed to be nerfed and how unfair it was.
I honestly love I14 and I think its the closest thing to next gen I have seen. I have always been under the fancy that its up to the person how they play the game, but it seems more and more people are stating that it affects their game and needs to be changed because of this.
Make some changes to the MA but don't change it because people are complaining that it takes away from their game.
[/ QUOTE ]
But but you wont play with them and save the cat gurlz!!! Just like the silly buggers that wouldnt stand around in tf's and let them rp, they want to control how you play.
Fact is, there is a sizable group in this game that plays for character advancement. Be it xp, inf,badges or Io sets. The devs can set that advancement however they want, but if they go too far either way, it signals bad things for the game. Yes, some of the more out there examples of farms were pushing things and needed to be dealt with. But ignoring that farming is a part of this game is not the answer. Make a statement that it is acceptable providing certain points are followed, IE no exploits.
Make a farm tag and dont go and delete the missions unless exploits are found. Running off the farmers will be just as bad for the bottom line as giving them too much slack.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
[ QUOTE ]
But but you wont play with them and save the cat gurlz!!
[/ QUOTE ]
Will no-one think of the poor Cat Gurl band kidnapped by Ebil Robots ? (#116617)
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
[ QUOTE ]
There are a number of good points on both sides of the issue here.
I have to confess, I've farmed myself. I wanted to play with a friend of mine, and I ended up getting almost 17 levels in 45 minutes. (Level 3 to level 19)
What I found, later, was that when I hit level 20, I was unable to find a team to help me get my cape. Or I was unable to find a team to help me do regular missions. Hell, I'm unable to find a team to help me do AE non-farm missions.
I love the Architect. I see great things coming from the Architect. But it seems that the only people in /broadcast, the only people teaming, are teaming for farms. I'm forced to farm if I don't want to solo. And I suck at soloing.
My two copper pieces.
[/ QUOTE ]
You must be on the wrong server. Did a farm mission testerday, formed a STF, and went and did regular MA missions after that. No problems making teams. Of course, I am willing to form my own team. too many in this game are teaming cowards, always wanting someone else to do the work of leading a team.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But but you wont play with them and save the cat gurlz!!
[/ QUOTE ]
Will no-one think of the poor Cat Gurl band kidnapped by Ebil Robots ? (#116617)
[/ QUOTE ]
you know I have to log in and check that one out. 
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
Its more fun on a team, but perfectly soloable
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
[ QUOTE ]
There are a number of good points on both sides of the issue here.
I have to confess, I've farmed myself. I wanted to play with a friend of mine, and I ended up getting almost 17 levels in 45 minutes. (Level 3 to level 19)
What I found, later, was that when I hit level 20, I was unable to find a team to help me get my cape. Or I was unable to find a team to help me do regular missions. Hell, I'm unable to find a team to help me do AE non-farm missions.
I love the Architect. I see great things coming from the Architect. But it seems that the only people in /broadcast, the only people teaming, are teaming for farms. I'm forced to farm if I don't want to solo. And I suck at soloing.
My two copper pieces.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is why you form your own teams by PMing people and asking if they wanna team, or asking friends. looking in broadcast is like looking for a sex partner in an alley full of syphillis riddled nymphomaniacs. You might get what you want but at terrible cost.
Want comedy and lighthearted action? Between levels 1-14? Try Nuclear in 90 - The Fusionette Task Force!
Arc ID 58363!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ah, you both are making the common fallacy of "I know it when I see it."
[/ QUOTE ]
Can't I just report it and let a GM decide?
[/ QUOTE ]
Can't I just report lame stories and let the GM decide about that?
Can't I just report mission with baddies that I feel are overkill and abusive?
Why don't we ALL just report EVERY SINGLE mission that we don't like, just to see if the devs will be OK with taking it out?
[/ QUOTE ]
What a false analogy. We're talking about reporting possible violations of the EULA, not personal taste. I wouldn't call security just because I don't like the color of one's car. I mean, I could, but that would get me in trouble for abusing the system.
Speaking of which, one can get in trouble for abusing the report system, so I suppose one could report as much as one wanted, if one wants to get in trouble oneself.
[ QUOTE ]
Speaking of which, one can get in trouble for abusing the report system, so I suppose one could report as much as one wanted, if one wants to get in trouble oneself.
[/ QUOTE ]
And I certainly hope that those who wish to abuse the system to harass folks for pursuing XP instead of RP will reap such rewards.
For Great Justice!
[ QUOTE ]
In what reality did Street Farming get elliminated because of player complaints? I remember distinctly it was DEV complaints and they never nerfed street mobs they (effectively) depowered mission mobs making them more desirable. Only difference was that you got full debt outside. If you aren't dieing there is no difference in experience from when CoH went live.
Devs wanted players to play a story not just button mash street thugs. In CoV they didn't even set up zones to do street hunting like in CoH.
The same goes for the mission players were abusing. It wasn't due to player complaints but due to DEV complaints. Best example was that Power Diversification and Fire tank nerfs were announce after someone told Statesman to stop attacking mobs in a mission that he was just slowing down the Fire Tank. He apparently took a dim view of being told to guard the door.
The Devs play this game and if you team with random people you may well be playing with one. They have a vision of how the game should be played and will enforce it regardless of what "whiney" players say.
In ALL the cases the OP listed there was a LOT more whining by players after the change than before it. After the announcement of Power Diversification the wailing was crazy bad. For good or bad, if they were just going by posters complaints the game wouldn't look anything like it does.
Before you complain about whiners make sure you aren't one.
MA needs some tweeks. To say otherwise is unrealistic. Hopefully they won't go overboard with the fixes but so far the Devs have been very open to rethinking and rebalancing.
[/ QUOTE ]
You are definately correct that the dev's made changes that were more inline with how they saw the game then the complaints themselves, BUT I was one of those fire tanks you are talking about and the consensus from the "Whiners" were that they needed to be nerfed and how unfair it was.
I honestly love I14 and I think its the closest thing to next gen I have seen. I have always been under the fancy that its up to the person how they play the game, but it seems more and more people are stating that it affects their game and needs to be changed because of this.
Make some changes to the MA but don't change it because people are complaining that it takes away from their game.