[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it wouldn't hurt for the devs to interact with the playerbase and let them know that the devs know the difference between people and missions that pursue XP and those that break the rules.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, it would. Because everyone who currently thinks they can't tell the difference, or believe if the devs act in a way contrary to their desires it must be due to lack of understanding, won't be convinced by anything the devs say. But it will open them to the additional charge that silence equals acquiesence or agreement with whoever calls them out.
Which is why calling them out is explicitly against the forum rules, by the way. To ensure dev silence cannot be interpreted as anything other than nothing.
I don't need the devs to tell me they are aware of the difference between extended play and reward exploit any more than I need them to notify me on a regular basis they are aware of the day of the week or the color of the sky. Perhaps my willingness to skip the stupid questions allows me to get the smarter ones answered at a higher rate than average.
I doubt the devs are going to pull the plug on XP in the MA any time soon. That decision was not made trivially in the first place. But even if they did, it would not be due to their lack of understanding of the facts, but rather a disagreement over their significance.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow - I am so disappointed in you Arcanaville - not saying this because you care what I think, only because I am so floored because I normally find your posts so wise and intelligent. Wow.
I am chalking this up to the fact that even the person with the most to offer can have one inexplicable skeleton in their closet - like Einstein, being an awesome scientist, and yet still refusing to believe in Quantum Physics because it conflicted with his religious beliefs.
Wow.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually her post was SPOT on. The devs have more important things to do than state the obvious. Anyone who thinks their silence means they endorse farming or that they are going to get rid of xp from the MA anytime soon is a flipping moron. End of story.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
seriously, at least our Devs interact with us to a degree, can't say the same for any other MMO.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
However, I'll bet anything if someone figured out how to earn 100 merits per minute, the devs would drop a hammer on that activity even if the averages for that activity were fine. But I can't say what the lower limit is: that's where judgement comes in.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes that was my point though no judgment needed. Just tell people what the acceptable limits are. Then instead of punishing content punish rewards.
Currently what we have are the equivalent of unpublished speed limits with random penalties and group retaliation. You did 51 in a 40 zone, we are going to burn your cul de sac to the ground and build a mini mall.
[/ QUOTE ]
I understand your point, which is that in your opinion everything should just be precisely defined. My point is that no game designer would hold themselves to that limitation, and the merit system is an example of that. You quoted the merit system first, and implied that it was a system where judgement isn't used. I'm saying it is used. Simply stating that its not necessary isn't an argument, its simply redeclaring your position. The merit system doesn't actually support your position, which is why I question your mentioning it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Especially since the devs have basically stated that they will up or lower merit rewards on a constant basis. they have already done it once.
The example of using merits was the WORST example to use if you want to talk about the devs defining exactly what is an acceptable level of rewards, cause the rewards of the merit system ARE SO NOT set in stone.
If a new activity is found that allows you to get 200 merits in a 30 minutes, you can bet your [censored] that the devs are redefining that reward/content.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Actually, in some other MMO's the devs interact even MORE strongly with their playerbase, But I guess with a playerbase of around 300 people, you kinda have to 
.
Especially if you are counting on them to provide artwork and other stuff to try and make your game bigger :P
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, in some other MMO's the devs interact even MORE strongly with their playerbase, But I guess with a playerbase of around 300 people, you kinda have to .
Especially if you are counting on them to provide artwork and other stuff to try and make your game bigger :P
[/ QUOTE ]
GASP!
What if one day the devs allow us to create maps that way?
Such as creating the art assets and then sending it to them, for them to construct the maps?
Thus they would be able to get around the whole problems of opening up custom maps, since THEY would still be creating the spawn points, but we would just be creating the look?
*ponders*
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
However, I'll bet anything if someone figured out how to earn 100 merits per minute, the devs would drop a hammer on that activity even if the averages for that activity were fine. But I can't say what the lower limit is: that's where judgement comes in.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes that was my point though no judgment needed. Just tell people what the acceptable limits are. Then instead of punishing content punish rewards.
Currently what we have are the equivalent of unpublished speed limits with random penalties and group retaliation. You did 51 in a 40 zone, we are going to burn your cul de sac to the ground and build a mini mall.
[/ QUOTE ]
I understand your point, which is that in your opinion everything should just be precisely defined. My point is that no game designer would hold themselves to that limitation, and the merit system is an example of that. You quoted the merit system first, and implied that it was a system where judgement isn't used. I'm saying it is used. Simply stating that its not necessary isn't an argument, its simply redeclaring your position. The merit system doesn't actually support your position, which is why I question your mentioning it.
[/ QUOTE ]
That wasn't my point, My point is games have rules and the people playing them should be able to know them, also action against rule breakers should be limited to the rulebreakers not the game as a whole. Any other system becomes little more than whim and personal opinion
[ QUOTE ]
My point is that no game designer would hold themselves to that limitation
[/ QUOTE ]
Chess is calling
Tennis is calling
Golf is calling
Monopoly is calling
SPI has their entire line of games calling
Avalon Hill is calling
Well you get the picture.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My point is that no game designer would hold themselves to that limitation
[/ QUOTE ]
Chess is calling
Tennis is calling
Golf is calling
Monopoly is calling
SPI has their entire line of games calling
Avalon Hill is calling
Well you get the picture.
[/ QUOTE ]
None of the first four even have reward systems within the same context as the ones being discussed, so they are completely inapplicable. If that is the best you can come up with, I'm afraid that's not good enough to warrant a calculated response. My original response stands. Now, if you manage to dig up the designer of Chess and he tells you he would design a reward system in an MMO without the exercise of judgement, then let me know.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
If that is the best you can come up with, I'm afraid that's not good enough to warrant a calculated response. My original response stands.
[/ QUOTE ]
I am funny in my goals I seek honest responses to honest positions. If I do dig up the designer of chess I'll ask him to have Demosthenes, ring me up about this.
[ QUOTE ]
None of the first four even have reward systems within the same context as the ones being discussed, so they are completely inapplicable.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually Monopoly is quite germane. That aside the point still stands, The players should know what the rules are. If you wanted to limit it to MMOS almost all do not require human judgment in the handing out of rewards.
Currently what we have Is random arbitrary and shows little judgment. Witness the takedown of arcs with farm in the name or description that were anything but. We also have random reaction and ongoing whittling away of MA features.
Judgment in this context is nothing more than arbitrary interpretation, it does no one any good in a game.
But, but who will teach the children how to play this game "properly"? We have to look out for the children!
[ QUOTE ]
Actually Monopoly is quite germane. That aside the point still stands, The players should know what the rules are. If you wanted to limit it to MMOS almost all do not require human judgment in the handing out of rewards.
Currently what we have Is random arbitrary and shows little judgment. Witness the takedown of arcs with farm in the name or description that were anything but. We also have random reaction and ongoing whittling away of MA features.
Judgment in this context is nothing more than arbitrary interpretation, it does no one any good in a game.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually the comparison of Monopoly, and all the other games in your list, are completely out of left field. The reason you have to know the rules of those games is because you, and everyone else playing with you, are the only ones enforcing those rules.
Those games do not allow you to do anything not explicitly stated in the rules unless everyone playing agrees to them.
An MMO like this is more akin to an RPG. You lay down the rules, but, the structure of the game allows players to do things the designer never thought of. On top of that, a segment of players will try to exploit the rules. Those players often create situations where the established rules make no sense.
That is where someone has to make judgment calls. You can't set criteria down in stone for every possible situation. As long as you make the right decisions, you might lose the exploiter (and, as far as I'm concerned, good riddance), but the majority of your players will stay.
The rest is just a general comment, not directed against AF...
I have to say I find this thread hilarious. There's no point in arguing that exploiting the MA is wrong because the people doing it are not going to be convinced, that type always feels justified in anything they do. Look at how most of them put things. It's all about them. What the consequences of their actions may be to others are unimportant.
On the flipside, the people arguing against the exploitative farms do need to differentiate between farming and a farm that gives you 50 levels in 8 hours. There's nothing wrong with farming if that's how that person wants to play. There is a great deal wrong with exploitation, most of which has already been stated in this thread.
@Doctor Gemini
Arc #271637 - Welcome to M.A.G.I. - An alternative first story arc for magic origin heroes. At Hero Registration you heard the jokes about Azuria always losing things. When she loses the entire M.A.G.I. vault, you are chosen to find it.
I think what we have here is closer to the game Magic: the Gathering
Wherein during the course of the game, players found ways to make the rules work FOR them instead of against them. Guaranteeing tourney wins and so forth. Which mean that the game publisher revised (nerfed) the rules on subsequent releases, as well as making cards with the old rules ineligible for tournament play.
And, still, people got creative with card combos that would 'lock' a win using the later sets.
It became a battle of players versus WotC - or older players against newer players - and at some point, people decided, to hell with these tourney rules, I'mma play some Magic with my friends, and if we throw in a few of those joke cards, all the better.
I do think that the MA system is the BEST thing to come along since, oh, CoV.
But, there is that concern that all the new players, from Steam, from the Mac pack, from wherever, are going to really get a skewed idea of what there is to DO in this game. Either they'll think that they level "too slow" in the non-MA content, or they'll shoot to 50 and then ask "is that all?"
And in both cases... they'll leave for another game.
What we as players want is for this game to remain viable, to grow, to expand, to remain a FUN pastime. It can't do that if it's not making money.
So I doubt we want to give new players the wrong expectations. What's the point in buying a month's worth of time if you level to 50 in two days? Why have all these zones with no one in them? Why do these TF's not allow solo play? It's a real hassle getting SIX players together out here...
We as veterans know how all this works.
But if you PL someone in AE in a couple of afternoons, they never leave the starting zone... and then they get to SKIP allllll that outleveled content, no contacts, and show up in PI or Grandville going "okay... is this it?"
"City of Heroes. April 27, 2004 - August 31, 2012. Obliterated not with a weapon of mass destruction, not by an all-powerful supervillain... but by a cold-hearted and cowardly corporate suck-up."
I really think that a glass half full take on things. Maybe people that "think" like you will do that but not everyone.
I came to the game as I8 hit. The first month was nothing like the next six months. It took me a good six months to learn all of the ins and outs so to speak.
I could have left then for VARIOUS reasons, one being xp was dreadful 1-30 making the "need" for that first respec more urgent for newer players, oh fun fun, NOT. XP was absurd in the 30's prior to xp smoothing making 1-50 a grind in many peoples eyes. However, there was enough here to keep me going.
The point is some people will come and stay some will come and go and the reasons are a varied as the number of people in the game.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
04-28-2009 17:57:54 [Local] Positron: Yes, if you lodge Complaints against the farms, they can be taken care of
[/ QUOTE ]
That's from Positron on test...
Guess this is settled! 
EDIT: Removed "So I guess that means that the official position is that we should complain about farms." from the quote. I don't think that was from Posi, but the poster who transcribed the chat. Was a little misleading.
[/ QUOTE ]
Posi has gone on record numerous times that he personally is against farming. However, In his own letter he has stated that the Dev's as a unit have "debated with loud voices" the point numerous times as to what limits if any should be imposed. The current system is what we have. Until they post something somewhere 'officially' that this is now against the rules, the behavior will be continued.
Exploits are wrong, and that isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about farming for max reward possible. If that is running Lib for exp, speed running TF/SF for merits, Slaughtering hundreds of mobs in the AE for tickets, street sweeping for badges...it is all farming. You are repeating the same action over and over to accomplish your stated goal. What is the purpose of merits if not to run meritable content over and over to get enough merits to buy what you want from them...especially villian side where the merits you get from standard content is much much lower than blueside.
Also...what you think is a farm, I might think is a brute challenge mission, or that 10yr old might think of as this really cool mission I made. Not everyone is Shakespear or Clancy with plot twists and entrancing narative. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to express themselves as well. If they were creative masters...wouldn't they be developers, authors, playwrites, in their own right?
I have said it before and I'll say it again. Unless there is a change to the rules or an official guidline issued, use the rating system...that is what it is for. If you like it rate it high, if you don't, rate it low. Leave the report button for actual reportable offences like language, racist terms, sexual content. Remember, that report button cuts both ways. If you report too many missions for what you think is wrong that really isn't...you loose your privalges as well.
All in all it reminds me of the arguements for drugs, prostitution, and most notably prohibition. Until the law is set, it is legal. Right now we are still legal, so enjoy.
Amen brother ! Exploits are a different matter than farming.
@Viking Queen.
[ QUOTE ]
Amen brother ! Exploits are a different matter than farming.
[/ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately, not everyone understands that.
Because to them, everything that can be attained at a more efficient manner than they are, in essence, an exploit.
Locking this for non productive discussion
-Mod8-
If you are using Latin in your post you are probably trolling
Have a question? Try the PlayNC Knowledge Base
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
However, I'll bet anything if someone figured out how to earn 100 merits per minute, the devs would drop a hammer on that activity even if the averages for that activity were fine. But I can't say what the lower limit is: that's where judgement comes in.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes that was my point though no judgment needed. Just tell people what the acceptable limits are. Then instead of punishing content punish rewards.
Currently what we have are the equivalent of unpublished speed limits with random penalties and group retaliation. You did 51 in a 40 zone, we are going to burn your cul de sac to the ground and build a mini mall.
[/ QUOTE ]
I understand your point, which is that in your opinion everything should just be precisely defined. My point is that no game designer would hold themselves to that limitation, and the merit system is an example of that. You quoted the merit system first, and implied that it was a system where judgement isn't used. I'm saying it is used. Simply stating that its not necessary isn't an argument, its simply redeclaring your position. The merit system doesn't actually support your position, which is why I question your mentioning it.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)