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He said that, as is painfully typical, a minority of people are trying to affect every person's game because the minority are now somehow unable to play the game how they want to. At least two doooom threads have asked the devs to eliminate XP from MA because some people farm the AE and this has ruined CoX.
Well, I'm with the OP. I love i14 and would hate to see the ninnies win the day here. No, I don't farm. I play other arcs and work on my own. Other than the fixes to clear bugs and improve arc creation, the only change I want to see is to give MA's a mission complete bonus.
Say "no" to the ninnies.
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I agree. Don't take the easy way out by eliminating or reducing XP from MA missions. Make it so spawns can't be all one rank, and reduce the exp Comm Officers yield (or simply make them unselectable when creating a custom group). This will make MA farming about as appealing as regular farming, except regular farming drops purple recipes. Eventually people will get over the shiny new AE farm toys and go back to farming in Peregrine Island.
Or you can just leave it be, I'm sure the farmstorm will die down eventually either way.
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Whether a mission is outside the realm of "reasonable levels of rewards is a judgement call. And while there are a lot of people around here who believe that the job of a good game developer is to be a robotic decision emitter, all actual game designers would disagree. And I use the word "all" specifically, because I believe a game designer that actually stated that a reward system could be managed without the exercise of judgement would be lying. That would fall under the category of "I'd like to see them try it."
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We actually have such a sytem for tfs already where its 1 merit / 3.5 minutes
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Ah, you both are making the common fallacy of "I know it when I see it."
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Can't I just report it and let a GM decide? 
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Can't I just report lame stories and let the GM decide about that?
Can't I just report mission with baddies that I feel are overkill and abusive?
Why don't we ALL just report EVERY SINGLE mission that we don't like, just to see if the devs will be OK with taking it out?
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What a false analogy. We're talking about reporting possible violations of the EULA, not personal taste. I wouldn't call security just because I don't like the color of one's car. I mean, I could, but that would get me in trouble for abusing the system.
Speaking of which, one can get in trouble for abusing the report system, so I suppose one could report as much as one wanted, if one wants to get in trouble oneself.
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Which I hope these anti-farming nazis run into - but back to your unproven assertion:
Please specifically quote the part of the EULA that you are using as the basis for the reports YOU are making.
Reporting a mission for having a reward rate you do not like, or being "too" monotonous, is exactly thr same as reporting a mission for having the wrong colored car - a matter of taste.
Reporting a mechanic that is too easily abused, like possibly comm officers, is much more defendable.
So again, exactly what part of the EULA do you think being violated? Please quote FROM the EULA.
For Great Justice!
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Which I hope these anti-farming nazis run into
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Godwin's law.
Can we get this thread closed now? It's run its course, regardless of what side of the discussion you fall on. Post in one of the more civilized threads from now on.
Global @Twoflower / MA Creator & Pro Indie Game Developer.
Mission Architect Works: DIY Laser Moonbase (Dev Choice!), An Internship in the Fine Art of Revenge (2009 MA Award Winner!) and many more! Plus Brand New Arcs for Issue 21!
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Godwin's law.
Can we get this thread closed now? It's run its course, regardless of what side of the discussion you fall on. Post in one of the more civilized threads from now on.
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Yes because calling for the suppression of ideas that are disliked is so forward thinking. I would say civilized but its one civilization's tragedies that it is.
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Godwin's law.
Can we get this thread closed now? It's run its course, regardless of what side of the discussion you fall on. Post in one of the more civilized threads from now on.
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Yes because calling for the suppression of ideas that are disliked is so forward thinking. I would say civilized but its one civilization's tragedies that it is.
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Yes. because its not like there arent 40 other topics about this exact same argument all of them going in circles.
Want comedy and lighthearted action? Between levels 1-14? Try Nuclear in 90 - The Fusionette Task Force!
Arc ID 58363!
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Godwin's law.
Can we get this thread closed now? It's run its course, regardless of what side of the discussion you fall on. Post in one of the more civilized threads from now on.
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Yes because calling for the suppression of ideas that are disliked is so forward thinking. I would say civilized but its one civilization's tragedies that it is.
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Yes. because its not like there arent 40 other topics about this exact same argument all of them going in circles.
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That in itself should tell you something. Shutting down a topic that has generated such interest does no one any good. It reflects very poorly on anyone that would call for it. All such action would accomplish is hardening the positions of both sides and intensifying any anger over whatever the eventual resolution will be.
I'm not saying make the TOPIC itself forbidden. That's stupid.
I'm saying let's funnel our efforts into one well organized thread instead of the 40+ "screw you and your mother" style threads we have.
It's not constructive discussion, regardless of how you feel about the issue, to have so many devolved threads when we could have one quality one.
Global @Twoflower / MA Creator & Pro Indie Game Developer.
Mission Architect Works: DIY Laser Moonbase (Dev Choice!), An Internship in the Fine Art of Revenge (2009 MA Award Winner!) and many more! Plus Brand New Arcs for Issue 21!
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It's not constructive discussion, regardless of how you feel about the issue, to have so many devolved threads when we could have one quality one.
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You are more optimistic than I.
At this point, where you have one side saying anything should be possible, and the other saying that no one should be even allowed to know what is permissable there is a mighty wide gap to close. Toss in the usual cast of ulterior motives and unrevealed goals, well I just don't see the two sides settling down to discuss this over tea.
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It's not constructive discussion, regardless of how you feel about the issue, to have so many devolved threads when we could have one quality one.
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You are more optimistic than I.
At this point, where you have one side saying anything should be possible, and the other saying that no one should be even allowed to know what is permissable there is a mighty wide gap to close. Toss in the usual cast of ulterior motives and unrevealed goals, well I just don't see the two sides settling down to discuss this over tea.
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beer and crab legs? We may no accomplish anything but so what?
ps. what makes the other 40 threads better than this one? maybe they should consolodate here.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
QR
Two sides? I only see the one side that "counts", the "devs". Players can have 50 sides for all its worth, the devs are the only side I care about.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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ps. what makes the other 40 threads better than this one? maybe they should consolodate here.
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The others didn't start out with a poorly worded rant calling out the devs, which is against board policies in the first place. We can do better than this.
Global @Twoflower / MA Creator & Pro Indie Game Developer.
Mission Architect Works: DIY Laser Moonbase (Dev Choice!), An Internship in the Fine Art of Revenge (2009 MA Award Winner!) and many more! Plus Brand New Arcs for Issue 21!
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Ah, you both are making the common fallacy of "I know it when I see it."
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Can't I just report it and let a GM decide?
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Can't I just report lame stories and let the GM decide about that?
Can't I just report mission with baddies that I feel are overkill and abusive?
Why don't we ALL just report EVERY SINGLE mission that we don't like, just to see if the devs will be OK with taking it out?
[/ QUOTE ]
What a false analogy. We're talking about reporting possible violations of the EULA, not personal taste. I wouldn't call security just because I don't like the color of one's car. I mean, I could, but that would get me in trouble for abusing the system.
Speaking of which, one can get in trouble for abusing the report system, so I suppose one could report as much as one wanted, if one wants to get in trouble oneself.
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Which I hope these anti-farming nazis run into - but back to your unproven assertion:
Please specifically quote the part of the EULA that you are using as the basis for the reports YOU are making.
Reporting a mission for having a reward rate you do not like, or being "too" monotonous, is exactly thr same as reporting a mission for having the wrong colored car - a matter of taste.
Reporting a mechanic that is too easily abused, like possibly comm officers, is much more defendable.
So again, exactly what part of the EULA do you think being violated? Please quote FROM the EULA.
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Try Rule 18 of the Rules of Conduct:
You will not exploit any bug in City of Heroes and you will not communicate the existence of any such exploitable bug (bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits) either directly or through public posting, to any other user of City of Heroes . Bugs should be promptly reported via 'Ask A Question' at http://support.cityofheroes.com.
Farm Missions are almost by definition an exploit of some bug, whether it's making a Custom Group of creatures that give rewards that excede the reward normally given for that type of creature (Rikti Dolls) or custom creatures that have no chance to damage you (melee attacks only and you have hover). And by making a mission using this exploit, you are communicating it to other players.
If Brevity is the Soul of Wit, Why are You Reading This?
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Ah, you both are making the common fallacy of "I know it when I see it."
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Can't I just report it and let a GM decide?
[/ QUOTE ]
Can't I just report lame stories and let the GM decide about that?
Can't I just report mission with baddies that I feel are overkill and abusive?
Why don't we ALL just report EVERY SINGLE mission that we don't like, just to see if the devs will be OK with taking it out?
[/ QUOTE ]
What a false analogy. We're talking about reporting possible violations of the EULA, not personal taste. I wouldn't call security just because I don't like the color of one's car. I mean, I could, but that would get me in trouble for abusing the system.
Speaking of which, one can get in trouble for abusing the report system, so I suppose one could report as much as one wanted, if one wants to get in trouble oneself.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which I hope these anti-farming nazis run into - but back to your unproven assertion:
Please specifically quote the part of the EULA that you are using as the basis for the reports YOU are making.
Reporting a mission for having a reward rate you do not like, or being "too" monotonous, is exactly thr same as reporting a mission for having the wrong colored car - a matter of taste.
Reporting a mechanic that is too easily abused, like possibly comm officers, is much more defendable.
So again, exactly what part of the EULA do you think being violated? Please quote FROM the EULA.
[/ QUOTE ]
Try Rule 18 of the Rules of Conduct:
You will not exploit any bug in City of Heroes and you will not communicate the existence of any such exploitable bug (bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits) either directly or through public posting, to any other user of City of Heroes . Bugs should be promptly reported via 'Ask A Question' at http://support.cityofheroes.com.
Farm Missions are almost by definition an exploit of some bug, whether it's making a Custom Group of creatures that give rewards that excede the reward normally given for that type of creature (Rikti Dolls) or custom creatures that have no chance to damage you (melee attacks only and you have hover). And by making a mission using this exploit, you are communicating it to other players.
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You need to demonstrate that a farm is a bug - which you cannot, because it is not.
You are done.
For Great Justice!
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Ah, you both are making the common fallacy of "I know it when I see it."
[/ QUOTE ]
Can't I just report it and let a GM decide?
[/ QUOTE ]
Can't I just report lame stories and let the GM decide about that?
Can't I just report mission with baddies that I feel are overkill and abusive?
Why don't we ALL just report EVERY SINGLE mission that we don't like, just to see if the devs will be OK with taking it out?
[/ QUOTE ]
What a false analogy. We're talking about reporting possible violations of the EULA, not personal taste. I wouldn't call security just because I don't like the color of one's car. I mean, I could, but that would get me in trouble for abusing the system.
Speaking of which, one can get in trouble for abusing the report system, so I suppose one could report as much as one wanted, if one wants to get in trouble oneself.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which I hope these anti-farming nazis run into - but back to your unproven assertion:
Please specifically quote the part of the EULA that you are using as the basis for the reports YOU are making.
Reporting a mission for having a reward rate you do not like, or being "too" monotonous, is exactly thr same as reporting a mission for having the wrong colored car - a matter of taste.
Reporting a mechanic that is too easily abused, like possibly comm officers, is much more defendable.
So again, exactly what part of the EULA do you think being violated? Please quote FROM the EULA.
[/ QUOTE ]
Try Rule 18 of the Rules of Conduct:
You will not exploit any bug in City of Heroes and you will not communicate the existence of any such exploitable bug (bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits) either directly or through public posting, to any other user of City of Heroes . Bugs should be promptly reported via 'Ask A Question' at http://support.cityofheroes.com.
Farm Missions are almost by definition an exploit of some bug, whether it's making a Custom Group of creatures that give rewards that excede the reward normally given for that type of creature (Rikti Dolls) or custom creatures that have no chance to damage you (melee attacks only and you have hover). And by making a mission using this exploit, you are communicating it to other players.
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You need to demonstrate that a farm is a bug - which you cannot, because it is not.
You are done.
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My favorite part of this pyramid is that it starts with a claim of fallacy, and then contains three more within it. It starts with a little slippery slope, mixes in a dash of ad hominem, and tops it off with burden of proof. Good game.
ROFL, a farm is a bug/exploit. I love that reason. It just made my day. I literally had a good laugh. 
A farm is not an exploit. Period. A farm is nothing more than running the same mission over and over. Tell ya what...I'm gonna go farm the ITF. Sure I will get reduced merits but the amount of exp/inf/drops you get from all those juice EB's and bosses is outstanding. Prior to I14, I leveled from 35 to 50 in there constantly. Now I level in the Architect. Why? because now I don't have to find 6 to start, I can get the same effect solo if i want or with a full team.
Exploits like rikti dolls, vamp chambers, snake eggs...take them out. I'm happy the are out. But to try to say any farming is an exploit is just foolishness. I can farm anything. EXP INF Merits Tickets Prestige....anything can be farmed. All farming is, is finding the most effective means of achieving it.
I am one of the people who gets TF rewards reduced. Why? Because my friends and I love to speed run the things to max exp per hour. If i wanted a story I would read a book. I'm here to play, and when I play, I want the most for my time.
A farm is not an exploit, but a farm can contain exploits. Those exploits should be fixed, and missions that use them removed.
I'd feel the same way if there were a story-enhancing exploit, and a bunch of story missions used it.
It can be argued that these things are working-as-programmed, because the game allows it, but it's fairly obvious that it's not working-as-intended based on feedback from Positron linked to earlier.
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To quote someone else here on the forums:
"It's like stream of consciousness without the consciousness."
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and
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I read it as: Okay, devs' balls in your court
God I need to get my mind out of the gutter.
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LOL! (in real life)
'Course, it wouldn't hurt for the devs to interact with the playerbase and let them know that the devs know the difference between people and missions that pursue XP and those that break the rules. Because a lot of *players* and *posters* either don't think the devs see the difference or don't think that there *is* a difference.
C'mon devs, it's time to settle this simple matter with a few short words from you.
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Here you go, direct from Positron:
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I should probably take this moment to talk about what the Mission Architect is not meant for. It is not meant for easy leveling or badging or farming. Those are things that we specifically wanted the Mission Architect NOT to do. This may be a disappointment to some, I know. The goal was to give creative minds an outlet to tell the stories they have in their heads. We didnt want the system clogged with Farm missions, so actually finding someones story that they lovingly crafted became more a chore than it was worth.
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This Mission Architect primary purpose is for telling stories. We do not want people to spend days making a great story only to find it shuffled into a list of missions with titles like "Get your Rikti Monkey badge here", "10 badges in 5 minutes", "Down on the AV Farm", etc. etc.
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Now, I went back and read that letter from Positron...lets look at what you left out....
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To that end, the Rewards in the Mission Architect are something we, ahem, discussed with raised voices time and time again. How much was too much? How little was too little? What limits needed to be put into place to stop farming? Should we even have such limits? Etc. In the end, we have a system that we believe is the best suited for what Mission Architect was made for, and is not abusable. Time and testing will tell if that is really the case though. Like the Invention System, there will be many iterations on the Mission Architect to make sure we get it right before it goes to the Live servers.
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So accordingly...There is nothing wrong with the way we have things until they are removed or changed due to testing. And while I do agree that mobs that can't hit certain people are an exploit..that is what we are stuck with if we want those sets of power combinations. I am a strong advocate of adding basic pistol/pistol whip attacks to all custom mobs.
Coke a Cola wasn't intended to be a consumer beverage, it was intended to be a headache medicine. Plans only work until they hit the first few seconds of the battlefield, then you adapt as you go.
Anything can be farmed if there is reason to do so...badges/inf/prestige/exp/merits/tickets. Are you going to nerf everything? Then why would anyone at all go see your story except your friends??? And if that is the case, why aren't your friends going to see your story already?
Pwned.
Also, I decided to check your second letter from Positron you have listed. Again, we thank you for your creative selection to support your postion, but here is the bottom half of the second letter from Positron you posted.
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Re: Ticket System
This system is in place so that we can better control the non-XP, non-Inf. rewards that are handed out by the system. Since the Architect determines a lot of the details of the mission, this puts a great amount of control over drops into their hands. With tickets, we can set a threshold that is simply unsurpassable.
That said, we want the ticket system to mirror in quality and quantity of reward as compared to the bulk of the normal game as much as possible. The idea being that if you levelled a character from 1 to 50 exclusively in Mission Architect, you won't be gimped or OP as compared to a level 50 that never touched the system.
Re: Exploitive Behavior
Now, I am not going to say we've covered EVERY edge case, but we've covered every edge case we could think up. Suffice it to say that if you have read everything here and have a "great idea on how to break the system", chances are we've thought of it and made it impossible.
We've added a TON more datamining hooks exclusively for Mission Architect as well, so we can easily see spikes in aberrant behavior. Spikes point us to exploits, which points us to log files, which reveal the identities of exploiters. So if you find a really big exploit in the system, I'd encourage you to PM me or another Dev and try to get your Bug Hunter badge, as the alternative is not pretty.
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How does it say to deal with missions you think are expoits...through a PM to a dev, NOT that report for content button. Leave that for real issues like language, sexual content, trademark, etc. A farm is not an exploit. Exploits should be reported via PM to a Dev.
If you didn't like a mission, 1 star it. That simple. If you think there is an actual exploit, don't even rate it, just send a PM to the Dev and call it done.
<qr>
Stuffing a custom group full of Rikti Comm Officers would not be a problem if RCOs didn't give elevated rewards based on their normal PvE surroundings, which you can strip out in the MA.
Anyone who thinks the devs aren't going to change this is kidding themselves. It has nothing to do with farming per se, it's a reward rate imbalance. The same arguments being made in defense of this out-of-balance MA mission were also made about the KHTF, and the Eden trial, and the Nictus Insurrection arc, etc, etc. They were bunk arguments then and they're bunk arguments now. The mission itself is fine (if monotonous), running it over and over is fine, but getting the reported reward rates from it is not fine, and I guarantee the devs will fix it when they have time.
And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines
It would be interesting to see how many people would call it an exploit if a mission has very effective rewards - and nothing else. No comm officers. No units that can't or don't fight back. Nothing specifically wrong with the mission - just really good xp/rewards with possibly a lame story. I wonder how many people would "report" such an ebil mission.
Hopefully, not many.
For Great Justice!
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We've added a TON more datamining hooks exclusively for Mission Architect as well, so we can easily see spikes in aberrant behavior. Spikes point us to exploits, which points us to log files, which reveal the identities of exploiters. So if you find a really big exploit in the system, I'd encourage you to PM me or another Dev and try to get your Bug Hunter badge, as the alternative is not pretty.
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How does it say to deal with missions you think are expoits...through a PM to a dev, NOT that report for content button. Leave that for real issues like language, sexual content, trademark, etc. A farm is not an exploit. Exploits should be reported via PM to a Dev.
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I'm pretty sure Positron meant you should PM the exploit before even publishing the mission.
And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines
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Speaking of which, one can get in trouble for abusing the report system, so I suppose one could report as much as one wanted, if one wants to get in trouble oneself.
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[And I certainly hope that those who wish to abuse the system to harass folks for pursuing XP instead of RP will reap such rewards.
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Amen
So what's the difference between my running an arc that gives me 9999 tickets per run and speed running TF's for merits? Tickets give me 1 to 2 gold rolls an hour....TF I can do 80 merits for 4 rolls in the same time frame with my sg team. The mobs I fight in the MA most definately can hit me. They are all bosses.
Why do I fight in the AE instead of the TF runs? Because I enjoy the challenge of going toe to toe with dozens of bosses at once. The reward is better in the Task Forces, but the challenge just isn't there.
FYI these are redside numbers.