[ QUOTE ]
I never made such a claim.
[/ QUOTE ]
I wasn't being snarky with you. It was PBAoE snark. Or something.
[ QUOTE ]
It does occur to me, though, that if you use Siphon Speed to debuff the recharge of a boss, that it would stand to reason it would work on an enemy pet as well, right? Next thing you know we have angry forumites demanding to know why their Siphon Speed doesn't do anything to fire imps.
[/ QUOTE ]
Realistically, I doubt many people will notice whether or not their enemies are affected by -recharge. The -speed component will still work, and that's the noticeable part of most slows, even if it's not always as useful as -recharge.
Your point is well-taken regarding logical consistency. But -- as Castle's pretty much come right out and said -- this is a workaround, not a particularly elegant solution. Given infinite time and resources, I'm sure they could come up with something much better. Given a more intelligently-written code base, I'm sure they could come up with something much better.
But it sounds like this is the best they can do with what they have. If they say "We don't like this change, but we don't have any alternatives," then I'm inclined to believe them.
[ QUOTE ]
Pet Powers Change:
o Recharge times on pet attack powers will no longer be affected by any outside source. This includes buffs and debuffs. What this means is that pets can no longer have the recharge time on their powers increased by player buffs (like Speed Boost) or their recharge time decreased by player or NPC debuffs. This change was made to allow pets to correctly cycle through their attacks instead of getting locked on using the same attack over and over and neglecting to use other available powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've already bugged this on Test but this is not working for Grave Knights. They still stand back, pull out their swords and spam Dark Blast and Gloom unless a mob comes in melee range or I move the pets within melee range. And even then melee is sporatic. I've seen them stand on top of the mob and use ranged attacks rather than melee. So this fix is not working for Grave Knights.
[ QUOTE ]
Your point is well-taken regarding logical consistency. But -- as Castle's pretty much come right out and said -- this is a workaround, not a particularly elegant solution. Given infinite time and resources, I'm sure they could come up with something much better. Given a more intelligently-written code base, I'm sure they could come up with something much better.
But it sounds like this is the best they can do with what they have. If they say "We don't like this change, but we don't have any alternatives," then I'm inclined to believe them.
[/ QUOTE ]
I believe that too. I'm sure that they have been working on this for a while and see no alternative. My only worry is why they felt they had to do this right now, rather than just leaving it how it is. Hopefully "soon" we'll get a better update. But in the meantime, we're exchanging one undesirable system for another undesirable system. We're taking out a nonsensical system to replace it with another nonsensical system. I figure "if it ain't broke" doesn't apply, but if I have to use a system that doesn't quite make sense, I'd rather it be one that I'm already used to.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
|
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pet Powers Change:
o Recharge times on pet attack powers will no longer be affected by any outside source. This includes buffs and debuffs. What this means is that pets can no longer have the recharge time on their powers increased by player buffs (like Speed Boost) or their recharge time decreased by player or NPC debuffs. This change was made to allow pets to correctly cycle through their attacks instead of getting locked on using the same attack over and over and neglecting to use other available powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've already bugged this on Test but this is not working for Grave Knights. They still stand back, pull out their swords and spam Dark Blast and Gloom unless a mob comes in melee range or I move the pets within melee range. And even then melee is sporatic. I've seen them stand on top of the mob and use ranged attacks rather than melee. So this fix is not working for Grave Knights.
[/ QUOTE ]
We're sorry, but "Recharge not being a legitimate cause for poor A.I." has been made illegitimate by the people pushing this change through with the grace of god and a sharp stick. It's the cause of your problem, even if it's not present. Just trust what other players tell you even though the facts don't back it up and you'll statistically never notice this change when it goes to live in a number of weeks, because that's what they've been telling us will happen. 
What's the worse that could happen if we put our trust in people that don't care? Worked for the market...
[ QUOTE ]
Does alot of ally powers include SB and...... ummm.... ahhhhh.... ummm..... geez...... accelerate metabolism?
[/ QUOTE ] adrenaline boost, and enforce moral.
[ QUOTE ]
Ummmm like.... cold domination and errrrrrrr.... ahhhhh.... ummmmmm....... geez.... aahhhhhh..... trick arrow? What debuffing sets rely on -recharge besides ice blast, melee, and armor? I feel that saying cold domination isn't completely true..... not that you care one damned bit....
[/ QUOTE ] lingering radition, shiver, snow storm. You need to quit acting like 1 or 2 powers are effected, its more than just that many.
[ QUOTE ]
YEAH ITS NOT LIKE the 5th column, arachnoids, Arachnos (soldiers, widows, fortunatas, Tarantulas, the robots), banished parthenon, Cabal, Carnival of shadows, Circle of thorns, Coralax, Council, Crey, Devoured Earth, Freakshow, Knives of artemis, longbow, The lost, Malta, Outcasts, Paragon Police Department, Paragon protectors, Psychic Clockwork, Rikti, Soldiers of Ruluruu, Tsoo, Vahzilok, Vanguard, Winter hord, and Wyvern ALL UTILIZE -RECHARGES IN THEIR POWERS!
[/ QUOTE ] Yeah but you dont get your recharge slowed that much if at all. Of those you name I can only see the paragon police having some significant -recharge. Getting your recharge slowed is never to the point where you are just waiting excessively to attack. I have never noticed -recharge effecting any of my pets period.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pet Powers Change:
o Recharge times on pet attack powers will no longer be affected by any outside source. This includes buffs and debuffs. What this means is that pets can no longer have the recharge time on their powers increased by player buffs (like Speed Boost) or their recharge time decreased by player or NPC debuffs. This change was made to allow pets to correctly cycle through their attacks instead of getting locked on using the same attack over and over and neglecting to use other available powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've already bugged this on Test but this is not working for Grave Knights. They still stand back, pull out their swords and spam Dark Blast and Gloom unless a mob comes in melee range or I move the pets within melee range. And even then melee is sporatic. I've seen them stand on top of the mob and use ranged attacks rather than melee. So this fix is not working for Grave Knights.
[/ QUOTE ]
So much for the "buff".... But I'm sure the nerf part will work as planned. 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pet Powers Change:
o Recharge times on pet attack powers will no longer be affected by any outside source. This includes buffs and debuffs. What this means is that pets can no longer have the recharge time on their powers increased by player buffs (like Speed Boost) or their recharge time decreased by player or NPC debuffs. This change was made to allow pets to correctly cycle through their attacks instead of getting locked on using the same attack over and over and neglecting to use other available powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've already bugged this on Test but this is not working for Grave Knights. They still stand back, pull out their swords and spam Dark Blast and Gloom unless a mob comes in melee range or I move the pets within melee range. And even then melee is sporatic. I've seen them stand on top of the mob and use ranged attacks rather than melee. So this fix is not working for Grave Knights.
[/ QUOTE ]
So much for the "buff".... But I'm sure the nerf part will work as planned.
[/ QUOTE ]Yes, because one person saying that it didn't work is proof positive! *rolls eyes*
My experiences aren't proof positive either, but this change works wonders for my Grave Knights on test. I've seen a lot more Siphon Life (in general, even...it was sporadic at best on Live), and I see Headsplitter more than once every 30 minutes like I did before. There's still the occasional hiccup, but I no longer have to babysit them for them to be competent.
[ QUOTE ]
So much for the "buff".... But I'm sure the nerf part will work as planned.
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Well all I can say is that if this doesn't fix the Bruiser, Grave Knights and Jounin...then I'd sure like to know what the real problem with them is. I'm sure it would make for some interesting discussion...
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So much for the "buff".... But I'm sure the nerf part will work as planned.
[/ QUOTE ]Yes, because one person saying that it didn't work is proof positive! *rolls eyes*
[/ QUOTE ]
I knew you'd enjoy my snarky response there... 
<QR>
I'm sorry when you said sets became unplayable (something like that) I assumed you meant the sets as a whole... and since when was andrenalin boost, and enforce morale recharge increasing only powers? And did you like not read the dispari response where she/he said pretty much the same thing? Or is it that you are much better than claiming than you are proving?
[ QUOTE ]
it's just a flat 'no recharge change' and affects each pet as a whole, not individual powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, that's not correct. It affects individual powers, not the pets. That's why you'll still see the Hasten yellow glow pass to your pseudo-pets, and why you can see big +Rech bonuses showing in Real Numbers for MM pets. The +Rech just won't do anything to affect most pet powers any more.
Some powers, such as Hide and Stimulant were left off the list. I think Hide still messes with the pet AI though, as I've had Jounin stand there doing nothing, then Hide and attack; apparently due to waiting for Hide to recharge after being detoggled by mezz. As for Stimulant; Med Kit got the nerf, so I suspect that is just an oversight the same as Giant Fly Trap's Entangle and all of Extracted Essence's powers.
[Edited for clarity.]
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
[ QUOTE ]
<ul type="square">[*]Prevents all player pets from being affected by recharge affecting buffs OR debuffs.[*]Does not prevent player pets from inheriting recharge buffs/debuffs from the player summoning.[/list]Is this correct? Please reply with my errors.
Also, if I'm correct this means that speed boosting a pet will only increase their endurance recovery. Yes?
Also, is a pets movespeed still affected by buffs?
[/ QUOTE ]
The first point quoted isn't precisely true. The pet still receives the buffs or debuffs, the pet's powers will just not be affected by +Rech or -Rech.
The second point is literally true, but misleading, for the same reason. The pet does inherit the +Rech buff, it just has no affect except to make them glow green or yellow or whatever.
Movement speed is still affected; this change ONLY stops a pet's own powers from having their Recharge time altered in any way.
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
[ QUOTE ]
<ul type="square">[*]Will not prevent pets summoned by NPCs by being buffed or debuffed with recharge effects.[/list]
[/ QUOTE ]
This is not entirely true. It is not the *intent* to have NPCs affected by this change, but most (all?) custom critter pets in the MA as well as some "in the wild" are indeed immune to -Rech.
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
[ QUOTE ]
My only worry is why they felt they had to do this right now, rather than just leaving it how it is. Hopefully "soon" we'll get a better update. But in the meantime, we're exchanging one undesirable system for another undesirable system. We're taking out a nonsensical system to replace it with another nonsensical system. I figure "if it ain't broke" doesn't apply, but if I have to use a system that doesn't quite make sense, I'd rather it be one that I'm already used to.
[/ QUOTE ]
++
Would love to hear the reason why this needs to be put in _right now_
Whether this is a buff or a nerf depends on the situation, but it is 'game breaking' in the sense that pets are a distinct and innate part of certain ATs and powersets.
Many people posting here feel that keeping pets from having any recharge +/- will change the balance of the game. Is it a buff when my MM faces down Ice Mistral now? Sure. But does it make it fun to ignore certain aspects of the game now? Probably not...Ice Mistral was fun to fight because you needed to avoid her slow and -recharge powers, position your pets appropriately and take her down.
Buffs work the same way. It sure was nice to see smart kinetics players who speed boosted your most powerful henchman instead of just the MM. Now it doesn't really matter whether the pets are boosted or not. No need to team with smart kinetics, any kinetics will do, so somehow the great kinetics players were 'nerfed' as much as the MM's pets.
I believe this simplification of the game takes something away from the richness and complexities of the game that makes CoX fun.
For the most part, it doesn't matter one way or the other that the recharge buffs/debuffs affect the pet or not. The player will most likely win in 99.9% of the cases where they would have won before, or lost, for that matter. But the simplification of the game is a worrying trend that makes this double plus ungood.
For such a drastic (yet subtle) change to be implemented without much forewarning calls into question where the game is headed. Unlike the devs, we have no roadmap or vision about what or where this change is to be implemented for. And many people when confronted with change without information, will fear the worst.
[ QUOTE ]
Would love to hear the reason why this needs to be put in _right now_
[/ QUOTE ]
Is next week good for you? 
[ QUOTE ]
<QR>
I'm sorry when you said sets became unplayable (something like that) I assumed you meant the sets as a whole... <rest of the post snipped by Bardon>
[/ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't say sets have become unplayable, but certain combinations have definitely become less tenable, especially in PvP and MA arcs.
For example, my Ice/Ice blaster has 11 out of the 18 primary/secondary powers that have -recharge components. They'll slow down the attack rate of Lord Recluse (eventually) but not a level 1 robot. This is supposed to make sense and be equitable?
As another example, with my Kin/Psi defender the -recharge from Siphon Speed (fortunately unresistable) combined with the -recharge from Mental Blast and PsiScream was a big part of his survivability, especially at lower levels.
My Ice/Rad controller and Ice/Cold corruptor fall into similar categories to those above
So while even I would agree that this doesn't make the sets unplayable, it will definitely affect who I take into PvP (none of the above) and MA arcs, and even in PvE those enemies who summon pets will now be more difficult to deal with, greatly so in the case of the -recharge specialists like the ice/ice and ice/cold characters.
And I note that the devs have STILL not said a single word about the detrimental affect this is going to have on -recharge powersets vs pets. Makes you wonder if they thought about it at all?
[ QUOTE ]
the -recharge from Siphon Speed (fortunately unresistable)
[/ QUOTE ]
Just to be clear: The unresistable part is irrelevant to this change, the -Rech from Siphon Speed will still be ignored, it will just be full strength while being ignored.
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
[ QUOTE ]
And I note that the devs have STILL not said a single word about the detrimental affect this is going to have on -recharge powersets vs pets. Makes you wonder if they thought about it at all?
[/ QUOTE ]
No word in any thread, and they seem to be ignoring any PMs on the subject as well.
Sometimes I wonder if they ignore an issue just to see the reaction. Doesn't take much effort to just say "we are looking into your concerns to see if they are valid".
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[ QUOTE ]
Would love to hear the reason why this needs to be put in _right now_
[/ QUOTE ]
Is next week good for you?
[/ QUOTE ]
I think that when it should be put in should be more inline with the speed that fixes are usually put in. Let's compare to CoP. That means that at least 10 issues should go by before this "fix" goes in that would be good for me and consistant too.........
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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even in PvE those enemies who summon pets will now be more difficult to deal with
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, they'll both be pretty tough...
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[ QUOTE ]
And I note that the devs have STILL not said a single word about the detrimental affect this is going to have on -recharge powersets vs pets. Makes you wonder if they thought about it at all?
[/ QUOTE ]
No word in any thread, and they seem to be ignoring any PMs on the subject as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
They are not ignoring PMs, I sent one to Castle, and posted his response in this thread.
[ QUOTE ]
No word in any thread, and they seem to be ignoring any PMs on the subject as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
To be fair, devs don't have time to respond to every PM someone sends them.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
|
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And I note that the devs have STILL not said a single word about the detrimental affect this is going to have on -recharge powersets vs pets. Makes you wonder if they thought about it at all?
[/ QUOTE ]
No word in any thread, and they seem to be ignoring any PMs on the subject as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
They are not ignoring PMs, I sent one to Castle, and posted his response in this thread.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, by no means do I expect a dev to answer a PM from me.
However, even in all the quotes I've been able to find in this thread (and it's a doozy!) I've yet to find a single statement from the devs in regards to the serious reduction in effectiveness of -recharge powersets against pets, most particularly in regards to PvP and MA arcs.
The closest I can get is a paraphrase of an apparent PM in which Castle states that this was not intended to affect enemy pets in PvE but in some cases it will.
Given that this issue has been raised a few times in this thread, I would expect that they'd at least make some sort of response.
I don't think I'm being unreasonable here, to be honest.
[ QUOTE ]
btw 247 = hundreds, or so I was taught in school. Admittedly that was some time ago, so maybe that has changed.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh sure, count the individual pet powers, why don't you...
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
Not likely, since no player can summon those pets.