[ QUOTE ]
It's 2.4s vs the 1.65s from just Hasten.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, it's a lot easier to tell the difference between 2.8 sec and 5.2 sec than it is to tell the difference between 3.6 sec and 5.2 sec, I would think.
To a certain extent, the actual numbers might be less relevant to the perception of how fast it's firing. For example, could you tell offhand the difference between a 2-minute and a 3-minute recharge? If I was doing something else, I probably couldn't without a clock, and that's a full 60-second difference!
A five second recharge is long enough that I'm not really thinking about how long it's been since the last bolt. Under three seconds, I'd probably be more like "Didn't that just fire?!" The 3.6 second cycle time with Hasten up is apparently long enough that I'm not really paying attention any more. Then again, I'm pretty easily distr... Ooooh, shiny!
[ QUOTE ]
It's probably not the norm, but it's any IO user (and LS is an L32+ power) with Hasten - hardly a rare build, which I'm guessing is why LS is getting targeted for a nerf.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's an IO Set user with Hasten -- as I understand it, regular recharge IOs don't make a difference. (I definitely would've noticed my 95% recharge on top of the Hasten. Not to mention that I did end up timing it and it only got the buff from Hasten. This was with no set slotting.)
That's probably a much smaller fraction of characters -- personally, I don't even start getting sets until level 37, unless I can get some real cheap stuff.
[ QUOTE ]
I recorded damage numbers when testing Audrey...
[/ QUOTE ]
Interesting results. The metric that I would use, though, is mission completion time: in addition to animation time, etc., there are a number of other issues that tend to dilute the effect of +recharge: moving between spawns and switching targets within one spawn being the major contributors that I can think of right now, So rerunning the same mission multiple times and timing how long it takes -- which you can do without actually completing the mission if you get a glowie radio mish without actually collecting the glowie -- should help to correct for these effects, right? It's not a perfect test, but it's a solid methodology. (Basically datamining on a small scale.)
[ QUOTE ]
The improved AI offsets a good portion of the nerf. But I can't attribute the AI improvement in this case to the recharge ignorance, since Twitchy misbehaves on live even with no +Rech anywhere.
[/ QUOTE ]
That raises an interesting question: were there other "under-the-hood" AI changes that weren't discussed in the patch notes? Or was the recharge issue somehow messing up the AI even when there was no +recharge? If it's the former, then it doesn't seem like it would be possible to simultaneously isolate the effects of the change while also accounting for the other factors that determine average killing speed. If it's the second, well, I guess that would shoot down some of the alternatives that have been presented.
[ QUOTE ]
At what point does a Stormy have "plenty of +Rec and EndRed"? LOL.
[/ QUOTE ]
Touche.
[ QUOTE ]
That's how I came up with my rough estimate of 20s as the break-even point.
[/ QUOTE ]
Gotcha.
[ QUOTE ]
But most of the other side effects powers get such as KB, -END, -Rec and so on don't cost extra END
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but not multiple secondary effects. Energy blast gets KB; elec gets -end/-rec; rad gets -def, etc. But getting more than one of these at a time in a ranged damage power isn't all that common. (Melee powers don't look like they follow the dpe rule that closely -- any maybe the ranged powers don't either once you're at high damage. Haven't looked to carefully, to be honest.) Bitter Ice Blast, for example, does have -tohit on top of the normal ice Slows -- it also looks like it costs 5.7 end per DS instead of 5.2.
The free AoE I'd give you here -- 5 feet is a pretty small radius.
So should we expect in i15 that we can't buff/debuff teammates now?
[ QUOTE ]
Something else that comes up in regards to this solution: at what levels of pet recharge does the AI start to go funky? Because if they're okay at, say, +20%, then couldn't you just set the max to 1.2? You still get some benefit from recharge buffs, the AI still behaves itself, and the whole RIP thing, while not totally fixed, becomes much less of an issue. Unless I'm misunderstanding something.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm extrapolating a bit here, but the problem isn't specifically a particular level of recharge. The problem is that the critter AI is sensitive to the amount of time it takes for certain powers to recharge, and which ones are important is itself based on a different algorithm that selects powers to use.
I *think* that the issue is that critter AI can be theoretically tweaked (if necessary, possibly per critter) to adjust them to avoid funky behavior, provided the devs know what powersets it uses and what the recharge times of the various attack powers are. However, it cannot be tweaked to avoid bad behavior in the general case where they don't know what the recharge times are for all the attacks - or at least the critical ones related to the problem.
I think the recharge lock is *part* of a solution that will involve the devs *also* tweaking the AI in the most problematic cases, which is why that change alone is not automatically fixing all the pets on test. Its setting the groundwork for them to be able to individually fix them, by adjusting the AI to handle the static set of cases they now are facing.
That's a guess, based on what I know about the AI problem itself, and keep in mind that's separate from Castle stating that in some cases pets were getting recharge unintentionally regardless of AI issues.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Recharge intensive pet sets. I understood that these were created to increase the firing rate of the pets that they were accepted into. What exactly is their purpose now?
[/ QUOTE ]
That was never my understanding of what these sets were created to do. They are to increase the recharge rate of the summon power for the pet.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then why does Sparky accept these sets since they do absolutely nothing for this pet?
[/ QUOTE ]
Why does it take normal recharge?
The devs make enough mistakes around here that I don't read intent into their inconsistencies, and sometimes not even into their consistencies. Maybe they thought people might like the set bonuses. Maybe when they did the changes to allow PIR sets be slotted in pets, whoever modded the spreadsheet forgot that VS can't die.
VS isn't a typical pet in the sense most people mean when they say "pet". It's ambulatory but non-targetable and non-destructable. That means it can't ever die, so the only reason it ever needs to be resummoned is because it expired or you zoned. But I'd hardly conclude based on that information that the devs let you slot PIR sets in it to make it attack faster. Its such an outlier that any number of other reasonable (if kind of dumb) possible explanations can be considered.
I'm not saying I wouldn't prefer PIR sets made it attack faster, but I don't think your logic really follows there.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
The free AoE I'd give you here -- 5 feet is a pretty small radius.
[/ QUOTE ]
Apparently the person who chose the IO Set for it to take thought so too.
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
[ QUOTE ]
So should we expect in i15 that we can't buff/debuff teammates now?
[/ QUOTE ]
I find your hyperbole to be greatly delicious AND amusing along with your lack of understanding of the situation. Post more plz.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So should we expect in i15 that we can't buff/debuff teammates now?
[/ QUOTE ]
I find your hyperbole to be greatly delicious AND amusing along with your lack of understanding of the situation. Post more plz.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think that, "Can't buff your Pet's recharge" is as hard to grasp as you think.
Someone is just suffering from a Global Humour Nerf. 
Set that Nerd Rage to stun!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So should we expect in i15 that we can't buff/debuff teammates now?
[/ QUOTE ]
I find your hyperbole to be greatly delicious AND amusing along with your lack of understanding of the situation. Post more plz.
[/ QUOTE ]
Its clearly sarcasm not exaggeration, I find your post greatly delicious AND amusing along with your lack of understanding of the situation. Post more plz....
....actually dont because your attempt at a condescending and insulting trolling post contributes nothing.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So should we expect in i15 that we can't buff/debuff teammates now?
[/ QUOTE ]
I find your hyperbole to be greatly delicious AND amusing along with your lack of understanding of the situation. Post more plz.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think that, "Can't buff your Pet's recharge" is as hard to grasp as you think.
Someone is just suffering from a Global Humour Nerf. Set that Nerd Rage to stun!
[/ QUOTE ]
My Nerd Rage and Snark are always set to kill. And honestly I don't know how to take that when there are a few posters who have pretty much taken the same tone and were dead serious.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So should we expect in i15 that we can't buff/debuff teammates now?
[/ QUOTE ]
I find your hyperbole to be greatly delicious AND amusing along with your lack of understanding of the situation. Post more plz.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think that, "Can't buff your Pet's recharge" is as hard to grasp as you think.
Someone is just suffering from a Global Humour Nerf. Set that Nerd Rage to stun!
[/ QUOTE ]
My Nerd Rage and Snark are always set to kill. And honestly I don't know how to take that when there are a few posters who have pretty much taken the same tone and were dead serious.
[/ QUOTE ]
If you're talking about the post: People are allowed to be sarcastic in lieu of a drastic change to their characters that is unwarranted and will not help in the end(Speaking of Mastermind Henchmen here). The problem is that on Live, the Ninjas won't engage in melee, which is unacceptable for the Jounin, and acceptable for Genin/Oni. My Ninja/Storm doesn't actually have Hasten, nor did my Thug/Poison before I deleted it(I'm not a firm believer in it for most of my character), and both the Ninjas and the Bruiser fail to engage in melee on their own for every battle, or even every other battle. How can the issue be recharge when it's not present in slotting or the Mastermind?
That's basically the problem, and it's not getting a solution by a widespread change. I'm not saying that VS or LS or Gun Drone attacking more often should or shouldn't happen, but the people with Masterminds are getting a solution that they don't want, or doesn't actually help. I personally think that the Bruiser might actually perform worse after this because it won't engage in melee, and you can't make Hurl fire more often to make up for it.
But really that's just what I think of the whole fix.
[ QUOTE ]
Well, go ahead and add me to the list of folks unhappy with this change. I don't so much have an issue with them doing something about +rech IO's affecting pets, but to make pets immune to outside recharge buffs is an across the board nerf to pretty much all MM's & Controllers. [/i]
[/ QUOTE ]
Honestly, I can't call it a nerf when they really aren't lowering their initial damage.
and I see Mod 8 has been busy 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, go ahead and add me to the list of folks unhappy with this change. I don't so much have an issue with them doing something about +rech IO's affecting pets, but to make pets immune to outside recharge buffs is an across the board nerf to pretty much all MM's & Controllers. [/i]
[/ QUOTE ]
Honestly, I can't call it a nerf when they really aren't lowering their initial damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
And in fact, it's a huge buff. Your pets are now immune to -recharge. No need to fear Psi, Cold/Ice or other -recharge abilities (LR from Rad, for example) any more.
It's sorta a buff because their recharge can't be slowed, but I do agree w/ the PvP ramifications...like against Ice Tanks for example...
My honest wish in all this is for the Devs to step forth and just admit that they were having major problems with the MA, and taking these steps is the only way that they can get it out on time. Something with pets recharge was totally borking the custom mobs, and they couldnt fix it in time. I just dont buy the fact that LS or Sparky or Gun drone were oped. if that was the case, then just affect those powers. they hit all the powers across the board. And why recharge. As many intelligent players have pointed out, if you are having problems with one power not cirulating i.e bruisers always chucking the rock, then just take the rock out. No ladies and gentleman, there is waaaaay more to this then they are saying. It would just make me feel alot better if they didnt treat me like i was ignorant, because i am not.....
And honestly there wasn't much of a difference between his/her sarcastic post and the responses of quite a few people posting who truly believe that. My rule of thumb is that if it isn't completely obvious and there are no emoticons: then take it "seriously". There are plenty of people who would say something along those lines and be completely and utterly serious. If he wasn't being serious: I was mocking him. If he was being semi-serious: I was mocking him. I didn't like i13 pvp... but if I was to remember how the pvpers who stated "what if this was brought to PvE" were treated...... ya. The rules confuse me.... is sarcastic hyperbole only okay if people agree with you and your not a pvper? Or are there other rules? 
But I digress.
[ QUOTE ]
How can the issue be recharge when it's not present in slotting or the Mastermind?
[/ QUOTE ]
Cause coding is a complex [censored] up system which is never as simply as many people want it to be. From what I understand you can't say "X isn't working something is wrong with Y." In the little coding I do in class most of the time it is more of "X isn't working.... lemme check A-Z until it does work."
[ QUOTE ]
So should we expect in i15 that we can't buff/debuff teammates now?
[/ QUOTE ]
That's all ready happened. Check out I13 PvP and Diminishing Returns.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
[ QUOTE ]
My honest wish in all this is for the Devs to step forth and just admit that they were having major problems with the MA, and taking these steps is the only way that they can get it out on time.
[/ QUOTE ]
My honest wish is just for you guys upset about this change to step forth and admit that you weren't hugged as children. It works both ways, you see.
If you're going to involve yourself in development matters, the very least you can do while still being productive is assume the devs are not lying. You may think they're mistaken, you may think they've come to the wrong conclusions, and you may certainly pull out data to show how they're wrong, but if you claim they are dishonest then what else is there to talk about? You certainly won't accept anything they say except what you want to hear, so what's the point?
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
[ QUOTE ]
They have known that multi-enhancements boost things not directly slottable since HO's.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes & No - I recall having my scrapper's melee attacks extended in range
But they patched that, and probably mostly forgot about it. None of the powers previously exploited or bugged so were pet powers - the part they knew about since i7 or so was caster buffs, not the enhancements bit.
And nice sig - [ QUOTE ]
Said they would NOT go back and give the SoW treatment to existing powers. HUNDREDS are being set to ignore recharge. Ok with that?
[/ QUOTE ]
First of all, misleading - not to hundreds of powers. And real smooth linking to Red Tomax's Dev Digest Database - did you actually READ what you linked to?
And the SoW treatment is using locked recharge as a core part of the balancing - not as a fix for various AI ills.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
Jade -
Legacy Chain bosses also summon fire imps - they also use phantasm, but it's a "Champion of Light" so it's probably a totally seperate entity.
I think the Lead Freezers might also summon Jack Frost.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Said they would NOT go back and give the SoW treatment to existing powers. HUNDREDS are being set to ignore recharge. Ok with that?
[/ QUOTE ]
First of all, misleading - not to hundreds of powers. And real smooth linking to Red Tomax's Dev Digest Database - did you actually READ what you linked to?
[/ QUOTE ]
I've been considering addressing this myself. The hundreds is simply hyperbolic, but I suppose "TENS of powers" just doesn't have the same rhetorical punch. Pets are not that ubiquitous.
Then the links. Yes, Castle said they had no plans at the time to give anything the SOW treatment...in 2007.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Said they would NOT go back and give the SoW treatment to existing powers. HUNDREDS are being set to ignore recharge. Ok with that?
[/ QUOTE ]
First of all, misleading - not to hundreds of powers. And real smooth linking to Red Tomax's Dev Digest Database - did you actually READ what you linked to?
[/ QUOTE ]
I've been considering addressing this myself. The hundreds is simply hyperbolic, but I suppose "TENS of powers" just doesn't have the same rhetorical punch. Pets are not that ubiquitous.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're aware that the nerf is to the pet's powers, not the summons, right? Just the MMs should account for about 150 powers.
All right, I'll add them up. I make no claim of completeness, this is just a quick count to get in the neighborhood.
Blasters, 2
Controllers, 21
Defenders, 2
Warshades, 3
Brutes, 23 (those PPP pet powers add up fast)
Corruptors, 22 (plus 1 that is a duplicate of a Controller power)
Dominators, 22 (plus 15 that I believe are duplicates of Controller powers)
Masterminds, 124 (plus 1 from Corruptors and 1 from Controllers)
Soldiers, 2 (plus 28 that are duplicates of Brute and Corruptor powers)
Stalkers, 18 (plus 3 that are duplicates of Soldier powers)
Widows, (23 that are duplicates of Brute powers)
That's about 239 powers.
Oh, wait, we have Arcanaville's list. That would have saved some wear and tear on my fingers and toes. Let's see...
247 powers listed.
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Said they would NOT go back and give the SoW treatment to existing powers. HUNDREDS are being set to ignore recharge. Ok with that?
[/ QUOTE ]
First of all, misleading - not to hundreds of powers. And real smooth linking to Red Tomax's Dev Digest Database - did you actually READ what you linked to?
[/ QUOTE ]
I've been considering addressing this myself. The hundreds is simply hyperbolic, but I suppose "TENS of powers" just doesn't have the same rhetorical punch. Pets are not that ubiquitous.
Then the links. Yes, Castle said they had no plans at the time to give anything the SOW treatment...in 2007.
[/ QUOTE ]
ok, now that Kosmos has shown us all how to count (I too use my fingers and toes ) I suppose I should address this.
btw 247 = hundreds, or so I was taught in school. Admittedly that was some time ago, so maybe that has changed.
At any rate I'll just sum up my interpretation of my sig and the quotes in it. If you feel like discussing it further PM me. If you feel it is slander, report it and it will likely get edited by a mod whether you are accurate or not. If you feel that compelled to stand up for someone fully capable of fighting his own battles then so be it.
Anyway, just so we are clear I'm not calling him out as in "omg you broke teh truce!!! you lied to me!!! what you said is written in stone!!!" like some would have you believe. They are of course entitled to their opinion no matter how contrived. I expect to sway them as much as they should expect to sway me.
Ok (sorry, rambling). Castle's quote has a lot of conditions attached (it also has a really funny joke in it, but that is another discussion altogether); notably "if the game changes" and of course "this is my guideline - aka if I change my mind"
We'd be stupid to believe it is acceptable to hold him to this statement given how rapidly MMO's evolve and surely things have changed right? I mean I'm a logical person and I do have moments where some light sparks in my brain.
Oh sure, lots has changed except well.... pets could already be 'creatively slotted' to improve their personal attack rate and psuedo-pets of doom like VS, LS and of course the power that keeps him up having sweaty nightmares because it is so OP'd - gun drone could already be 'exploited' too.
Yes RIP sets made the issue more prominent, but the game did not change because everything RIP does could already be done.
What changed - likely after a sleepless night of getting pwned by gun drone - was his perception of the issue.
So he enacted the "unless I change my mind part". Big deal right? It kinda is. Changing your mind when the technical caveats aren't met is sort of unfair. We've probably all done it though and he is only human, but that does not excuse accountability.
Anyway, if you want to discuss it PM me. I'm a friendly guy and up until this change I always been constructive and informational. Unfortunately Castle has rubbed me the wrong way with i13 pvp and now this, so in my mind he is in the dog-house.
from that same quote I think it seems fair if a handful of powers were treated this way and he prepped us for that by including accolades and vet powers (for instance), but to slap it onto hundreds of powers is just shocking - an overload if you will. I think not many people actually realize just how many powers this is being applied to.
take care all.
oh IOs...how you've everything more fun and troublesome
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ignoring the fact that the first shot occurs at the same time and discrete issues, a 60% increase in firing rate will result in 60% more shots in any given time increment. When you factor in the first shot, the percentage decrease from the nerf is lower the shorter the time. This is a pretty small effect.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's only a small effect in long fights. In short fights, it's the same order as the effect of the nerf itself -- hardly non-negligible.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you mean "hardly negligible". And I didn't say it was negligible, I said it was pretty small. Meaning that the benefit isn't large enough relative to the issue of opportunity cost to be too concerned about in a simple model.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However, the issue really is the END cost. If it's not worth casting for a 10s fight now - and it isn't - then the damage reduction due to this nerf is 100% for that case, while in a 30s fight - where it is worth casting - is necessarily less than that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe a clearer way of looking at this would be to ask at what point, for a given level of recharge, casting LS does become worth its endurance use. That will depend on a number of other factors -- overall EndRx slotting, set bonuses, power selection, etc. -- so it's not clear that there's a simple answer to that question.
That said, if we use the normal attack dpe of 5.2/DS (i.e. a 1 damage scale attack uses 5.2 end, a 2 DS attack uses 10.4, etc.), then LS (which uses 31.2 end) needs to fire 6 times to be as endurance-efficient as a normal attack. (This isn't entirely a fair comparison -- the LS attack has a small AoE and multiple secondary effects: KB,-end, -recovery.) With no recharge, it takes 31 seconds to hit the break-even point; with Hasten, it needs to be firing for 21 seconds, and with +150% recharge, it breaks even after 17 seconds. (Apologies if you've already been through this; this thread is long enough now that I've lost track of who's said what.)
I'm not sure that this necessarily means "it's not worth casting" if it's not going to get to fire 6 times -- sometimes the most efficient use of endurance isn't necessarily the best, especially if you have plenty of +recovery or endrx.
[/ QUOTE ]
At what point does a Stormy have "plenty of +Rec and EndRed"? LOL.
Lots of powers get END cost free side effects, some even get END cost free AoE. So that's not that unusual. Well, the AoE is unusual outside of Scrapper Melee cones. But most of the other side effects powers get such as KB, -END, -Rec and so on don't cost extra END. It's only when that is considered more than a side effect that you typically have to pay for it.
The DS for the Pet should really be adjusted to equivalent DS for the summoner. LS' damage is actually around DS 1.31 for a Controller, but doesn't get Containment damage. On a Defender it is DS 1.355. On a Corr it's DS 0.96 with no Scourge. On an MM, it's 1.31.
It fires once at 0s (the finish of the shot is at 1.4s, and then it starts recharging, but since I only care when the break-even shot starts to fire, I work from 0s), then again about every 5.4s (again, that's the end of the shot). So 31.2 END divided by 5.2 E/DS dvided by 1.31 DS equals 4.58 shots. So (4.58 - 1) * 5.4s = 19.3s.
That's how I came up with my rough estimate of 20s as the break-even point.
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)