[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, go ahead and add me to the list of folks unhappy with this change. I don't so much have an issue with them doing something about +rech IO's affecting pets, but to make pets immune to outside recharge buffs is an across the board nerf to pretty much all MM's & Controllers. [/i]
[/ QUOTE ]
Honestly, I can't call it a nerf when they really aren't lowering their initial damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
And in fact, it's a huge buff. Your pets are now immune to -recharge. No need to fear Psi, Cold/Ice or other -recharge abilities (LR from Rad, for example) any more.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, I get it now.. I just have to look at nerfs as if they are "buffs" and they will suddenly make more sense!
...or, on the other hand, you can stop looking at the game through nerf-colored glasses, and acknowledge that some changes *do* have positive benefits, even if they also have some negative ones.
Though honestly it is more of a nerf than a buff......
>>
<<
what?
[ QUOTE ]
...or, on the other hand, you can stop looking at the game through nerf-colored glasses, and acknowledge that some changes *do* have positive benefits, even if they also have some negative ones.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm... My original post does have that tone, in my opinion. I said I don't have a problem with them doing something about IO slotting pets for recharge, but I do have an issue with changing a long established mechanic of external buffs affecting pets.
Which do you think represents a greater number of players? Those savvy enough to realize that slotting multi-aspect IO's with recharge into pets would increase the recharge rate of the pets? Or the mythical "casual" player that reads the description of two common and popular buffing powers, Accelerate Metabolism & Speed Boost, and uses them "as intended" to buff pets?
I'm sorry, but no matter how I look at the positive aspects of this, the wide-ranging and completely counter-intuitive removal of external recharge buffs on pets is a big negative. It affects a much greater number of players, and makes it harder for new & inexperienced players to understand the game mechanics.
Kosmos, Frosticus, I was indeed thinking of it as just the summons, not the pet powers. I suppose it does depend on how you view it. I'm not sure that looking at each pet power specifically is any more valid than looking at the pet summon, as it's just a flat 'no recharge change' and affects each pet as a whole, not individual powers. *shrug* But I'm not inclined to fight that point.
[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, just so we are clear I'm not calling him out as in "omg you broke teh truce!!! you lied to me!!! what you said is written in stone!!!" like some would have you believe.
[/ QUOTE ]
Now this I find insulting. I read your sig. I read the links in your sig. I came to my own conclusion that you are misrepresenting what Castle said.
Sure, everything RIP sets do could already be done, but if you take Castle's word, and again there is no way to hold a productive conversation if you do not, then the RIP sets showed them what was happening more clearly than what already in place in 2007. That's what changed between then and now.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
[ QUOTE ]
Though honestly it is more of a nerf than a buff......
>>
<<
what?
[/ QUOTE ]The nerf/buff ratio varies on who you're talking to, and what toons that person has, obviously. But to call this change a flat-out buff or flat-out debuff is flat-out wrong.
[ QUOTE ]
Which do you think represents a greater number of players? Those savvy enough to realize that slotting multi-aspect IO's with recharge into pets would increase the recharge rate of the pets? Or the mythical "casual" player that reads the description of two common and popular buffing powers, Accelerate Metabolism & Speed Boost, and uses them "as intended" to buff pets?
[/ QUOTE ]I believe that the majority of players think that recharge placed into pets increase the recharge rate of the pet power, not the pet's powers. That's the way it works for all other powers, so thinking that it does for the pet power is fairly intiuitive. There's nothing to say that it also buffs the powers of the pets, so unless they have a lot of recharge to make a noticeable difference, it would go unnoticed.
As for AM and SB, the majority of pet users don't have these powers available to them. MMs don't have either set, and while /kin and /rad may be popular, the other secondaries for controllers are just as popular (to varying degrees, at least).
So we're talking about the likelihood of someone knowing that recharge affected the powers of the pet, *and* that they had a meaningful way to buff that recharge. Since Hasten isn't nearly as popular with controllers as it is with other archetypes, the number of people that will even notice this change is pretty low.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, but no matter how I look at the positive aspects of this, the wide-ranging and completely counter-intuitive removal of external recharge buffs on pets is a big negative. It affects a much greater number of players, and makes it harder for new & inexperienced players to understand the game mechanics.
[/ QUOTE ]I agree that it would be nice if SB and AM were able to affect pets. But how is "recharge in pet powers decreases recharge of the pet's powers" intuitive? How is "Your pets inherit your hasten" intuitive?
[ QUOTE ]
I agree that it would be nice if SB and AM were able to affect pets. But how is "recharge in pet powers decreases recharge of the pet's powers" intuitive? How is "Your pets inherit your hasten" intuitive?
[/ QUOTE ]
Hasten is not intuitive. That one we can agree on.
Slotting recharge in a pet's power is. If you slot damage, is it making the summon do more damage? Does slotting accuracy make the power more likely to summon a pet? No; those effects go to the pet's powers. If you slot endurance, you both reduce the cost of the summon and the pet's powers. Now before I say it, are we meant to believe that recharge NOT affecting the pet's power is intuitive, despite the fact that all other attributes DO affect the pet's powers? If you slot recharge, it was sort of doing it but sort of not. It depended on which sorts of IOs you were slotting. It wasn't intuitive before, and it's not intuitive after thsi change.
"Pets are now totally unaffected by positive or negative recharge of any sort for no apparent reason" is not intuitive. New players aren't going to understand that. Even some vets aren't going to get it. There's no popup that tells you not to Speed Boost your imps anymore, so people are going to do it and then wonder why it's not working, because it just plain doesn't make sense.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
|
But the real question is how many people will actually notice. In the few times I've teamed with a Kin on my MM, I definitely noticed the movement speed increase...but I didn't notice any particular speed increase in their attacks. That's not to say it wasn't there, but I didn't notice any difference with the added recharge.
Maybe I'm not very observant...I dunno. But I have a hard time believing that this is going to lead to masses of confused people.
[ QUOTE ]
The nerf/buff ratio varies on who you're talking to, and what toons that person has, obviously. But to call this change a flat-out buff or flat-out debuff is flat-out wrong.
[/ QUOTE ] You might as well just say its a nerf, I cant think of one positive benefit on this change. Yes I have tested these changes with ninjas, animate stone and jack frost. Looking at what we lost is just huge. No pets can gain any recharge. Thats all the troller pets, dom pets, patron pets, GD, LS, VS, mastermind pets. This makes alot of ally powers not as useful and pretty much worthless for solo play. Add on top of the fact that now many debuffing sets and attacks wont be helping with survival because they cant slow enemy critters attack rates down. And what did we gain? Practically nothing, so what if our pets recharge cant be slowed, but honestly how often does that even happen enough to matter? Almost never. There are some folks who claim the bruiser pet is that much better, I would love to dispute that claim but I dont have thugs mastermind high enough to test for it, but I do know for the pets I tested they are the same on test as they are on live.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
[ QUOTE ]
This makes alot of ally powers not as useful and pretty much worthless for solo play.
[/ QUOTE ]
Does alot of ally powers include SB and...... ummm.... ahhhhh.... ummm..... geez...... accelerate metabolism?
[ QUOTE ]
Add on top of the fact that now many debuffing sets and attacks wont be helping with survival because they cant slow enemy critters attack rates down.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ummmm like.... cold domination and errrrrrrr.... ahhhhh.... ummmmmm....... geez.... aahhhhhh..... trick arrow? What debuffing sets rely on -recharge besides ice blast, melee, and armor? I feel that saying cold domination isn't completely true..... not that you care one damned bit....
[ QUOTE ]
Practically nothing, so what if our pets recharge cant be slowed, but honestly how often does that even happen enough to matter? Almost never.
[/ QUOTE ]
YEAH ITS NOT LIKE the 5th column, arachnoids, Arachnos (soldiers, widows, fortunatas, Tarantulas, the robots), banished parthenon, Cabal, Carnival of shadows, Circle of thorns, Coralax, Council, Crey, Devoured Earth, Freakshow, Knives of artemis, longbow, The lost, Malta, Outcasts, Paragon Police Department, Paragon protectors, Psychic Clockwork, Rikti, Soldiers of Ruluruu, Tsoo, Vahzilok, Vanguard, Winter hord, and Wyvern ALL UTILIZE -RECHARGES IN THEIR POWERS!
[ QUOTE ]
The nerf/buff ratio varies on who you're talking to, and what toons that person has, obviously. But to call this change a flat-out buff or flat-out debuff is flat-out wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. Though I can see where the other side is coming from (even when a few of them are taking it a little too seriously and/or hyperbolicly). I think that most of this trouble could have been solved if the rules for Pets and what enhancements they can use or not were a little more consistent.
[ QUOTE ]
Does alot of ally powers include SB and...... ummm.... ahhhhh.... ummm..... geez...... accelerate metabolism?
[/ QUOTE ]
You forgot Adrenaline Boost and Enforced Morale.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Add on top of the fact that now many debuffing sets and attacks wont be helping with survival because they cant slow enemy critters attack rates down.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ummmm like.... cold domination and errrrrrrr.... ahhhhh.... ummmmmm....... geez.... aahhhhhh..... trick arrow? What debuffing sets rely on -recharge besides ice blast, melee, and armor? I feel that saying cold domination isn't completely true..... not that you care one damned bit....
[/ QUOTE ]
You forgot Spines, Widow Claws, Ice Control, Psi Blast, Psi Assault, Mental Manip, Poison, Traps, Storm Summoning, Kinetics, Radiation Emission, and Dark Miasma.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
|
HE asked what sets rely on -recharge. Not which sets contain it.
The only set that has a legitimate complaint here is Ice Control, and even then it has other ways of dealing with the tiny number of NPCs that summon pets.
[ QUOTE ]
HE asked what sets rely on -recharge. Not which sets contain it.
The only set that has a legitimate complaint here is Ice Control, and even then it has other ways of dealing with the tiny number of NPCs that summon pets.
[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe those sets don't completely rely on recharge debuffs, but that renders a lot of powers useless as debuff tools. Saying that "well that set as a whole doesn't RELY on that power" is just an excuse to wave off a good dozen powers that don't do anything to units who are immune to recharge debuffs, or at the very least lose a portion of their usefulness for no apparent reason.
And even if we're only mentioning sets that completely RELY on the recharge debuffs, everything up through Mental Manip is still valid because all those sets have very little other means for mitigation outside of the recharge debuffs they offer.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
|
It renders minor tools useless in, what? One situation every 100?
Be honest, how often do you come across an NPC that summons a pet?
[ QUOTE ]
You forgot Adrenaline Boost and Enforced Morale.
[/ QUOTE ]
.... people use adrenaline boost on pets? 
. And if you are going to look me in the eye and tell me that both powers are completely useless now (which is what EvilRyu was stating).... I will seriously lol at you. And since you like the math so much that is like what? 4 powers out of how many buff powers (I'll give you it for the sake of mockery)? Yes. That clearly is the definition of alot in anyone's book.
As for the second part.... read the first part:
[ QUOTE ]
Add on top of the fact that now many debuffing sets and attacks wont be helping with survival because they cant slow enemy critters attack rates down.
[/ QUOTE ]
Won't be helping with survival was my point. If you are going to look me in the eye and say that Spines and Widow's Claws are less survivable do to this change..... I may seriously stop taking you seriously forever.
Ice Control as the.... well.... control to handle itself despite the changes (I thought). No experience with Psy powers but...
[ QUOTE ]
Traps,
[/ QUOTE ]
Poison trap..... which I feel free in saying is definetly used more for the choking aspect than the -recharge aspect... by you and ryu's standards the trap set because of this change is no longer effective. Yeah..... no.
[ QUOTE ]
Poison
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually has a whole power which is dedicated to the slows....but once again Your guys logic dictates a nerf to one power renders every other debuff in the set useless. The point I'm focusing on in this part is that "many debuff sets are not helpful." Since you feel obligated to defend I'm assuming you agree with him.
[ QUOTE ]
Storm Summoning
[/ QUOTE ]
Two powers... one of which also has a weak, pathetic -def and -res attached... but who uses freezing rain for that?
[ QUOTE ]
Kinetics,
[/ QUOTE ]
Does not have a -recharge. What was your point here?
[ QUOTE ]
Radiation Emission
[/ QUOTE ]
One power.... which also comes with a -regen.... but nobody likes that at all so it too is useless.
[ QUOTE ]
and Dark Miasma
[/ QUOTE ]
has the -recharge in howling twilight. I always used that power for the nifty stun.... but I suppose there are a few who would use it for a -recharge.... and I guess I'm stupid cause I thought the whole defense of Dark miasma was -tohit, the -res, and the status effects.... I had no idea that -recharge played such a big role in Dark miasma.
Please read what EvilRyu said: [ QUOTE ]
Add on top of the fact that now many debuffing sets and attacks wont be helping with survival because they cant slow enemy critters attack rates down.
[/ QUOTE ]
Prove to me that taking away the -recharge against enemy pets (which somehow became EVERY ENEMY EVER!) in all the sets you listed makes those sets completely and utterly incapable of helping the survival of you or a team.
Then after that you can take all the powers whose -recharge is useless (seperate them into attacks and debuffs please) explain to me how they are weak and pathetic now... and then show me numerically what percentage of attacks and debuffs those now "useless" -recharge powers make up. If they are greater than 50% I will admit that you are right and never argue with you or EvilRyu again ever.
or you can prove to me that pet level enemies make up 50% + of the game... and I will concede too. Whatever is easier for you.
Spines has -8% recharge on its powers. Even stacked, that will hardly have an effect.
Widow Claws are paired with an uber defense secondary.
Psi blast has TK Blast, Will Dom, Scramble Thoughts, PsiNado, and PsiWail for those tough foes.
Psi Assault is always paired with a control primary, making any -recharge mostly superfluous.
Mental Manip is has Drain Psyche, WoC, Scare, TK Thrust, and Psi Shockwave to mitigate damage.
Only Ice Control is being negatively affected in any meaningful way.
[ QUOTE ]
[Kinetics] Does not have a -recharge. What was your point here?
[/ QUOTE ]
Not that I disagree with you at all, but doesn't Siphon Speed have -recharge? Without which, of course, the entire set is now useless.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[Kinetics] Does not have a -recharge. What was your point here?
[/ QUOTE ]
Not that I disagree with you at all, but doesn't Siphon Speed have -recharge? Without which, of course, the entire set is now useless.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually.... yeah it does.... 
I just skimmed mids quick through my rant and it only showed a -speed but when i went to look at the advanced info it showed a 20% -recharge.
Unresistable -recharge. That isn't really relevant to this discussion, but it does make Siphon Speed very nice for AVs.
[ QUOTE ]
Be honest, how often do you come across an NPC that summons a pet?
[/ QUOTE ]
So far, in MA? About every other mission.
And as much as I hate to mention lolpvp... lolpvp too.
But this isn't about "how often does it happen," it's about "it does happen, and it makes no sense."
[ QUOTE ]
Spines has -8% recharge on its powers. Even stacked, that will hardly have an effect.
Widow Claws are paired with an uber defense secondary.
...
[/ QUOTE ]
Okay, let's stop here. You can come up with tons of reasons why those "don't count," and I could refute them, and we could be here all day arguing about something that isn't the core topic. I could also come up with reasons why "defense secondary," Psi Tornado, "control primary," Scare, and whatever else you named "don't count" and we could derail the thread to oblivion.
I never stated, nor would I try to, that sets are useless without those powers. My previous posts in this thread have been that the change is unintuitive and that it makes no sense that certain buff/debuff powers just suddenly don't work on pets anymore. Even if the change only has a minuscule impact on those sets/powers, there are still going to be questions about why pets are immune to these powers for no apparent reason.
[ QUOTE ]
Not that I disagree with you at all, but doesn't Siphon Speed have -recharge? Without which, of course, the entire set is now useless.
[/ QUOTE ]
I never made such a claim. It does occur to me, though, that if you use Siphon Speed to debuff the recharge of a boss, that it would stand to reason it would work on an enemy pet as well, right? Next thing you know we have angry forumites demanding to know why their Siphon Speed doesn't do anything to fire imps.
Similarly, we could make a change so that all female models are immune to knockback, and then argue that while Energy sets are the only ones that are severely hampered by this change, that most other sets are okay and you don't face female models "often enough" that it matters and you always have some other primary or secondary or mez power to rely on so you don't need knockback. But none of that would change the fact that it would make no sense whatsoever and is just confusing to players with no explanation.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
|
[ QUOTE ]
The nerf/buff ratio varies on who you're talking to, and what toons that person has, obviously. But to call this change a flat-out buff or flat-out debuff is flat-out wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, this depends on how you look at the change. As an across the board change to all powers, sure, it's a mixed bag. However, the change was implemented on a per power basis. Granted, for consistency they should probably effect all powers, but they didn't need to. They have the ability to exempt powers should they so choose. Knowing this, I tend to look at the changes on the basis of each individual power....is this fair?....perhaps not. But when I look at the changes this is clearly a nerf to pets with only one attack. There are also pets that happened to be buffed, sure, but for me these are two seperate issues.
Now could the developers reasonably effect some pets and not others....perhaps not, but knowing that they can, causes me to view this change as a set of nerfs and a set of buffs.
[ QUOTE ]
Be honest, how often do you come across an NPC that summons a pet?
[/ QUOTE ]
A lot of the fear stems from the fact that MMs appear to be fairly popular as MA enemies, and this will put the -recharge powers at a disadvantage in those encounters.
Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
Draggynn's Guide to Storm Summoning(Gale-Tornado, updated 6/25/2011)
Avatar by Wassy full reference here
[ QUOTE ]
So in an attempt at summary, this change:
<ul type="square">[*]Was to prevent player pets' powers receiving unintended +recharge from HO, SHO enhancements and IO sets that included recharge bonuses, but were not recharge specific.[*]Primarily targeted Voltaic Sentinel, Lightning Storm and Gun Drone which were attacking much faster than intended.[*]May or may not improve current problems with the Bruiser and Fly Trap endlessly using a single power.[*]May or may not improve other problems with general pet AI.[*]Prevents all player pets from being affected by recharge affecting buffs OR debuffs.[*]Will not prevent pets summoned by NPCs by being buffed or debuffed with recharge effects.[*]Does not prevent player pets from inheriting recharge buffs/debuffs from the player summoning.[/list]Is this correct? Please reply with my errors.
Also, if I'm correct this means that speed boosting a pet will only increase their endurance recovery. Yes?
Also, is a pets movespeed still affected by buffs?
[/ QUOTE ]
Some NPC pets will be immune to -recharge. Such as those in MA arcs.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
Does this affect Recluse's summoned bane spiders? Just curious.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
So in an attempt at summary, this change:
<ul type="square">[*]Was to prevent player pets' powers receiving unintended +recharge from HO, SHO enhancements and IO sets that included recharge bonuses, but were not recharge specific.[*]Primarily targeted Voltaic Sentinel, Lightning Storm and Gun Drone which were attacking much faster than intended.[*]May or may not improve current problems with the Bruiser and Fly Trap endlessly using a single power.[*]May or may not improve other problems with general pet AI.[*]Prevents all player pets from being affected by recharge affecting buffs OR debuffs.[*]Will not prevent pets summoned by NPCs by being buffed or debuffed with recharge effects.[*]Does not prevent player pets from inheriting recharge buffs/debuffs from the player summoning.[/list]Is this correct? Please reply with my errors.
Also, if I'm correct this means that speed boosting a pet will only increase their endurance recovery. Yes?
Also, is a pets movespeed still affected by buffs?
Eastern Standard Time (Australia)
is 15 hours ahead of
Eastern Standard Time (North America)
which is 5 hours behind
Greenwich Mean Time (GMT)