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The closest I can get is a paraphrase of an apparent PM in which Castle states that this was not intended to affect enemy pets in PvE but in some cases it will.
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Well, other than the fact that it's not intended, what do you want? I admit more could be said, such as whether the devs plan to give critters their own version of player pets, and if so, how soon, but isn't that a logical progression from it not being the intended behavior?
That's not even the only possible solution, if the idea suggested about allowing debuffs but putting a "cap" on buffs could be worked, then there wouldn't need to be separate pets. Maybe the devs haven't given an answer because they don't know how they are going to address it. And they have already said that they're aware of it, so all you're looking for is the "we're going to do something about it".
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No word in any thread, and they seem to be ignoring any PMs on the subject as well.
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To be fair, devs don't have time to respond to every PM someone sends them. 
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I don't expect an individual reply to every PM I send. They must be getting a few more than just mine on this subject, and it'd be nice if they posted something publicly about it.
It's been days since that patch went in, and no further information has been forthcoming. The potential ramifications of this deserve at least some acknowledgment of the concerns.
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The closest I can get is a paraphrase of an apparent PM in which Castle states that this was not intended to affect enemy pets in PvE but in some cases it will.
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Well, other than the fact that it's not intended, what do you want?
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"some cases" implies it's a minor issue and will be gotten around to when there's free time. If those "some cases" didn't include the entire point of the next issue the change ships with, I would indeed be satisfied with that.
It was glossed over like it was unimportant, I'd like to know that there's a possibility three of my characters can actually participate in that issue upon release on even footing with everyone else.
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The closest I can get is a paraphrase of an apparent PM in which Castle states that this was not intended to affect enemy pets in PvE but in some cases it will.
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Well, other than the fact that it's not intended, what do you want? I admit more could be said, such as whether the devs plan to give critters their own version of player pets, and if so, how soon, but isn't that a logical progression from it not being the intended behavior?
That's not even the only possible solution, if the idea suggested about allowing debuffs but putting a "cap" on buffs could be worked, then there wouldn't need to be separate pets. Maybe the devs haven't given an answer because they don't know how they are going to address it. And they have already said that they're aware of it, so all you're looking for is the "we're going to do something about it".
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Actually, what I'd like to know is how they're going to address the major imbalance this creates between MM's and -recharge powersets in PvP and MA arcs, or even that they realise what a major change this is in that regard.
My Ice/Ice blaster, Kin/Psi defender and Ice/Rad controllers will have greatly reduced effectiveness against a MM in PvP when I14 goes live. The devs haven't addressed this in any way, shape or form. THAT is what I'd like to hear them discuss.
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even in PvE those enemies who summon pets will now be more difficult to deal with
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doubtful, but then again, my opinion is skewed on Test since my Stone Brute is the one playing through various MA arcs
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Your point is well-taken regarding logical consistency. But -- as Castle's pretty much come right out and said -- this is a workaround, not a particularly elegant solution. Given infinite time and resources, I'm sure they could come up with something much better. Given a more intelligently-written code base, I'm sure they could come up with something much better.
But it sounds like this is the best they can do with what they have. If they say "We don't like this change, but we don't have any alternatives," then I'm inclined to believe them.
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I believe that too. I'm sure that they have been working on this for a while and see no alternative. My only worry is why they felt they had to do this right now, rather than just leaving it how it is. Hopefully "soon" we'll get a better update. But in the meantime, we're exchanging one undesirable system for another undesirable system. We're taking out a nonsensical system to replace it with another nonsensical system. I figure "if it ain't broke" doesn't apply, but if I have to use a system that doesn't quite make sense, I'd rather it be one that I'm already used to.
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Heh, could have said the very same thing about pre-I13 PvP... At least we were used to it.
But it got changed anyway. It is incredible how more popular it has become. PvP zones and the Arena are crowded like never before 
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
Im not going to read this whole thread. Should I or should I not respec out a set of Expedient Reinforcements from my Dark Extractions on my WS?
-Largo
Founder of A.G.O.N.Y. Supergroup on Victory
Member of Thought Sanctum VG on Victory
Member of St0rm Batallion SG on Guardian
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<QR>
I'm sorry when you said sets became unplayable (something like that) I assumed you meant the sets as a whole... and since when was andrenalin boost, and enforce morale recharge increasing only powers? And did you like not read the dispari response where she/he said pretty much the same thing? Or is it that you are much better than claiming than you are proving? 
[/ QUOTE ]Thats like saying speed boost and am are only recharge boosting powers, they arent but the recharge benefit is huge on some of those powers. Just not on enforce morale.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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Im not going to read this whole thread. Should I or should I not respec out a set of Expedient Reinforcements from my Dark Extractions on my WS?
[/ QUOTE ]It depends on what you have them in there for. I have a set in there for the recharge bonus, and for the recharge. The more fluffies out the better, I say.
If you were just putting it in there just so your Fluffy can fire faster...then by all means, respec it out. But keep in mind that the recharge still is helping you get Fluffies out faster.
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I'm sorry when you said sets became unplayable (something like that) I assumed you meant the sets as a whole... and since when was andrenalin boost, and enforce morale recharge increasing only powers? And did you like not read the dispari response where she/he said pretty much the same thing? Or is it that you are much better than claiming than you are proving?
[/ QUOTE ]Thats like saying speed boost and am are only recharge boosting powers, they arent but the recharge benefit is huge on some of those powers. Just not on enforce morale.
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I'm sorry Ryu.... when you said.... what was it?
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This makes alot of ally powers not as useful and pretty much worthless for solo play.
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Ah yes that. I guess we both have different ideas of alot. When I think alot I think most... but when you think alot you think.... 4 powers? Out of how many powers? Yes, that is the very definition of alot.
What else did you say?
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Add on top of the fact that now many debuffing sets and attacks wont be helping with survival because they cant slow enemy critters attack rates down.
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Yes that, I've noticed you have yet to show me whole debuffing sets which are utterly destroyed by the fact that you can't debuff pets anymore.
Finally I'm gonna quote myself.
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Then after that you can take all the powers whose -recharge is useless (seperate them into attacks and debuffs please) explain to me how they are weak and pathetic now... and then show me numerically what percentage of attacks and debuffs those now "useless" -recharge powers make up. If they are greater than 50% I will admit that you are right and never argue with you or EvilRyu again ever.
or you can prove to me that pet level enemies make up 50% + of the game... and I will concede too. Whatever is easier for you.
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Please back up what you are saying.... or don't..... either way is good but I personally find the latter much more amusing.
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"some cases" implies it's a minor issue and will be gotten around to when there's free time. If those "some cases" didn't include the entire point of the next issue the change ships with, I would indeed be satisfied with that.
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The MA will still use critter summoned pets just like normal missions do. The MA will still have missions that don't include critter pets at all, just like normal missions do. The only time you will run into this issue is when 1) you run into the normal critter summoned pets that happen to be the same as player pets, 2) a custom critter uses one of the custom sets that summon pets that happen to be the same as player pets, or 3) a custom critter is a Mastermind. This leaves plenty of alternatives for missions in which -recharge will effect every critter, summoned or not, in the mission.
As I've said previously, if this is a major issue, I expect the players themselves will note in their mission descriptions if they use MM critters. That should leave plenty of missions (if the players are designing missions around fun and concepts, not creating an unbeatable mission that no one can run) that you will have no innate weakness against.
Personally, I feel that if a lot of the custom power sets make use of player pets, an easy and quick solution is to change them to make use of the critter version of those pets where possible. This would eliminate 2), and just make it the same as 1), if you create a custom critter that uses the same pet as a normal critter would use, then you will get the player pet when the normal critter would get the player pet.
1) can then be eliminated just by duplicating those player pets that are in use by critters. This is less likely than 2), and would require more work, but it is not impossible as a choice down the line. That would leave only the MM pets, which are probably much more numerous that the other player pets which are shared by critters.
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Actually, what I'd like to know is how they're going to address the major imbalance this creates between MM's and -recharge powersets in PvP and MA arcs, or even that they realise what a major change this is in that regard.
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I'm assuming that when Castle said:
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Trust me, no one here was happy about this decision, but in the end, it was the only way to go.
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This is one of the things he meant. The only positive is that this effects ALL pet users, red side or blue side, and if your pets can't be debuffed, that means your enemy's pets can't be debuffed either. Clearly there's still an imbalance since MMs rely more heavily on pets than any other AT, but there's no reason to assume the devs are unaware of the impact it will have on PvP. Or even that they haven't commented on it.
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Once again, I'm going to suggest that the most useful possible feedback -- from players' persepective as much as the devs -- would be to hop on the test server and actually test the changes, preferably in a quantitative fashion.
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Testing feedback is useful, sure. But do I really need to log in to test to know that, someday, when my Plant/Emp hits level 38, I'm going to have to constantly remember to not bother AB'ing my Fly Trap (or any other pet for that matter) because of this hack? It's clearly a QoL issue in the making. Buffs should work in an intuitive way, not have intricate partial conditional exceptions carved out all over the place.
Also, there's no way to test whether Bruiser AI would still work if the recharge change were rolled back, unless the recharge change actually were rolled back. Theorycraft and zero-recharge data from live is all we've got on that end. That's unfortunate, since it's a question that's been brought up by multiple posters.
Finally, the vast majority of summoned entities either had no problem in need of fixing, or otherwise weren't improved by this hack. There's no testing that needs to be done on that. The only real discussion there is whether the purpose of this hack is to fix AI, to prohibit recharge enhancements, or (my interpretation) prohibit recharge enhancement in a way that can be passed off superficially as an AI fix. That's just a trip to flamesville that testing can't help -- I probably shouldn't have even brought it up.
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But do I really need to log in to test to know that, someday, when my Plant/Emp hits level 38, I'm going to have to constantly remember to not bother AB'ing my Fly Trap (or any other pet for that matter) because of this hack?
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Why in the world would you not use Adrenaline Boost on your Fly Trap? It will heal faster, it will recover End faster, and it will be resistant to Slows. Sure, the End boost is likely not going to change anything, but surely you want the regeneration and slow resistance.
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Im not going to read this whole thread. Should I or should I not respec out a set of Expedient Reinforcements from my Dark Extractions on my WS?
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I'd say leave them. What would you put in instead? Nothing is going to pass Recharge through to the pets now and you want the Recharge for the summon power anyway. Plus you get the good Set bonuses. Unless you're trying to go with less than 6 slots I can't see a significantly better option.
I'm going with 5 slots myself, as I have the SAs I had to pull out of Imps when they broke the set over a year ago. Since there's no reason to put them back in Imps now, even if they do ever admit they're broken and do something about it, I'm using the A/R, D/R, A/D/R and BU with a single Dam IO for DE. If I was starting from scratch I might find the 6th slot and go with 4 ER and 2 CtA.
Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
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Why in the world would you not use Adrenaline Boost on your Fly Trap? It will heal faster, it will recover End faster, and it will be resistant to Slows.
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Because held, confused, knocked enemies won't deal damage or slow my Forted Fly Trap's movement. And Fly Trap won't need protection from recharge debuffs anyway.
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Because held, confused, knocked enemies don't deal damage or slow my Fly Trap's movement. And Fly Trap won't need protection from recharge debuffs anyway.
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But that still doesn't answer the question of why, if you had the option, you would not use the power. Certainly if you have a teammate you can cast it on in preference to the Fly Trap, it would do more good. But you always had that choice to make anyway.
Are you saying that the ONLY thing useful about any power (to a pet user) is its ability to boost recharge?
In most solo controller situations? The "gee, this game is kind of easy, I just wish I were doing damage faster" situations? Yes, I'm saying precisely that. If I don't need to give Audrey regeneration, recovery, or movement debuff protection, then ABing her is equivalent to CMing her on a demon farm. Not worth the keystroke.
In team situations, you're absolutely right, I'd be ABing a teammate anyway, but it's the solo situations I'm concerned about.
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In most solo situations? The "gee, this game is kind of easy, I just wish I were doing damage faster" situations? Yes, I'm saying precisely that.
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Well, at least that explains your conclusion.
That kind of high level slotting, though, where you are never in any danger and the only thing you can continue to tweak is how fast you make kills, is exactly what the devs appear to be trying to address. Unfortunately. I empathise, but not so much that I will take your side.
I'll admit, since I'm not even 32 yet, I don't know how much I'll be in danger, or (more to the point) how much Audrey will be in danger. If somehow Audrey's getting more aggro than Fort and RA can handle, maybe that regen will save me an Absorb Pain now and then. Though I suspect the Roots spam will be directing most of the aggro my way.
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I'll admit, since I'm not even 32 yet, I don't know how much I'll be in danger, or (more to the point) how much Audrey will be in danger. If somehow Audrey's getting more aggro than Fort and RA can handle, maybe that regen will save me an Absorb Pain now and then. Though I suspect the Roots spam will be directing most of the aggro my way.
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Well, AB is hardly going to be the power when you are solo as it used to be. And that is unfortunately, the nerf was intended to catch those slotted Recharge and Set Bonuses that were stacked ON TOP of AB, and now you will get neither.
I'd like to see a solution where +recharge can be allowed for "true" pets, but constrained, say to 1.5 times normal instead of 3 or 5 or whatever times normal. It would not be great, but better then nothing. And you would have a counter against debuffs. (Although the Slow resistance would give you that if -recharge applied)
Speculation about other alternatives doesn't really mean that it can actually be done that way, though. And there is still the AI issue, although what pets are effected and how bad the problem is definately seems to be a source of much flaming.
I think you must have meant +recharge instead of +regen. The +regen and other aspects of AB are unchanged by this. Only the +recharge is being effected.
I do not feel that this change is going to have as bad of effect and many think it will. With the way the AI works many of the times it gets lost when trying to find its way out of things like freezing rain and tar patch instead of attacking anyway.
For one I will be happy when my Grave Knights actually close ot melee and hit the enemies instead of just standing back taking pot shots with Gloom.
Arc 52555: Tower of Darkness
Arc 139668: Bob's Crazy Car Dealership
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I think you must have meant +recharge instead of +regen. The +regen and other aspects of AB are unchanged by this. Only the +recharge is being effected.
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You are right. I was talking about +regen with Rigel_Kent (saying that AB would still have +regen even though it will no longer have +recharge) and must have gotten the two mixed up in my mind in that last post.
I intended to say +recharge. (Which is what I edited it to)
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Actually, what I'd like to know is how they're going to address the major imbalance this creates between MM's and -recharge powersets in PvP and MA arcs, or even that they realise what a major change this is in that regard.
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I'm assuming that when Castle said:
[ QUOTE ]
Trust me, no one here was happy about this decision, but in the end, it was the only way to go.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is one of the things he meant. The only positive is that this effects ALL pet users, red side or blue side, and if your pets can't be debuffed, that means your enemy's pets can't be debuffed either. Clearly there's still an imbalance since MMs rely more heavily on pets than any other AT, but there's no reason to assume the devs are unaware of the impact it will have on PvP. Or even that they haven't commented on it.
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I'm afraid we're just going to have to just agree to disagree here, as you seem to be missing my point especially in your final comment.
I don't see how you can state that the devs have commented on the imbalance this brings to PvP, because they haven't said one single word about it! You're assuming that Castle might have implied that in the blanket statement you quoted, but everything with a redname next to it regarding this issue discusses the impact on pets NOT the impact on -recharge sets affecting (or rather, not affecting) pets.
I don't think it's unreasonable to question whether they've considered this issue, given that they haven't said a single word about it.
I'm not assuming that they haven't commented on PvP, I'm stating as a fact:
There is no redname post in this thread or anywhere else here that mentions the effect this will have on PvP OR the imbalance this brings between -recharge powersets and pets and what, if anything, they're planning to do about it.
I will gladly stand corrected and quite honestly, I'd be very grateful if you can find a post anywhere on these boards regarding the impact this change has on -recharge sets vs pets by a Dev.
In summary: This change will detrimentally affect any -recharge powerset in PvP against MM's. I would like to know what, if anything, the Devs are going to do about it. There is to date no information on this question.
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I'm afraid we're just going to have to just agree to disagree here, as you seem to be missing my point especially in your final comment.
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We obviously are in disagreement here, since all I am saying is that it seems to me to be implied.
Maybe the devs haven't commented specifically about PvP, but in general, there is nothing to say. There is nothing for them to say that they're going to do, because there's nothing for them to do. Nothing, that is, outside of a solution that would increase server load by 50%. Or so the devs seem to be saying.
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btw 247 = hundreds, or so I was taught in school. Admittedly that was some time ago, so maybe that has changed.
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Oh sure, count the individual pet powers, why don't you...
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But... but.... if we don't its not a big number......