Discussion: PAX- Seattle Aug 29-31st
By
4_Thirty_5,
Posted on: 2008-04-25 17:46 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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I generally have a lot of respect for your opinions, but implying that anyone who dislikes the decision made by marketing in this instance is somehow being unreasonable is simply something I can't agree with.
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I never said that. I said I believe (and still believe) that the majority of reasonable players don't begrudge NC for creating exclusive marketing giveaways.
There are lots of decisions that either the dev team or NCsoft in general make that I either disagree with, or which go against my personal preferences (which are two different things). But thats not the same thing as saying I believe they are idiotic, incompetent, ignorant, unresponsive, or poor decision-makers every time they make a decision I disagree with.
I'm disappointed I missed the last double XP weekend. I do not believe NCsoft had an obligation to check with my schedule first. I can be disappointed in something without thinking that that fact alone makes the source of my disappointment deficient.
I also stand by my assertion that it is unreasonable to presume that being disappointed in a circumstance carries with it the presumption that someone made an error to create that circumstance. If I end up not getting the costume option, I'll be disappointed. It won't change my mind that NCsoft is being completely reasonable in its approach to marketing exclusives. I'm saying that with the full knowledge that there is very little probability of NCsoft being at a public venue anywhere within two thousand miles of me.
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/agree
IGNORING THE SILLY DRAMA OF THE THREAD...
I will be at whatever Meet and Greet there is unless something happens and Seattle like... blows up or something.
-Da Big Bug
"I swear you could fling a man hole cover across the street and hit more notes than 90% of those idiots on American Idol" -Desmodos
"Every time you post I feel like I been hit with a fist full of smart! Thanks." - Volken re: Sucker Punch
Arc #36984 V'kta A'cha Vox'm
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If you don't spend the time, money or effort, why exactly do you deserve something that others DID? They're not FOR everyone, that's why they're "special".
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If COX had a premium monthly subscription service, and those players were receiving additional in-game perks, then your argument would have merit. Those players would be investing more money into COX and receiving more in return.
Instead, I would say the numbers break down like so: assuming COH still enjoys 150k monthly subscribers, they would represent monthly receipts of $2,250,000.
How many of those subscribers will be attending PAX? Would 200 be a fair estimate? Representing $3000 of monthly receipts.
How much revenue will NCsoft be generating from this event? $0?
If you were an investor of NCsoft, would you prefer they focus on the customers representing $3000 of monthly receipts, or the group representing $2,247,000 of monthly receipts?
Yes, I understand it is important for companies to have a strong showing at these types of events - mostly for bragging rights, as these events do not appear to result in a bump in game subscribers - but my point is these events should be handled in such a way that you make net gains with your customer base.
Here I would say things were adding up to a net loss, which is probably not the direction they want to be headed.
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Here I would say things were adding up to a net loss, which is probably not the direction they want to be headed.[/color]
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Really? NcSoft loses money by letting a group of people access something that's already in the game?
They should really shut off that /dice7 emote then. I mean that must be like pouring money straight down the drain.
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If you don't spend the time, money or effort, why exactly do you deserve something that others DID? They're not FOR everyone, that's why they're "special".
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If COX had a premium monthly subscription service, and those players were receiving additional in-game perks, then your argument would have merit. Those players would be investing more money into COX and receiving more in return.
Instead, I would say the numbers break down like so: assuming COH still enjoys 150k monthly subscribers, they would represent monthly receipts of $2,250,000.
How many of those subscribers will be attending PAX? Would 200 be a fair estimate? Representing $3000 of monthly receipts.
How much revenue will NCsoft be generating from this event? $0?
If you were an investor of NCsoft, would you prefer they focus on the customers representing $3000 of monthly receipts, or the group representing $2,247,000 of monthly receipts?
Yes, I understand it is important for companies to have a strong showing at these types of events - mostly for bragging rights, as these events do not appear to result in a bump in game subscribers - but my point is these events should be handled in such a way that you make net gains with your customer base.
Here I would say things were adding up to a net loss, which is probably not the direction they want to be headed.
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I may have agreed with you if the give away item was of some significance. I don't think it is. It's a nice little giveaway...it's not even a costume set where you can mix and match.
It's a gimmick for these shows. Way too much drama over something so minor. I had to almost gag when I saw the last giveaway item was just sold on ebay for $230. Some people need to get their priorities in order! 
You don't have to pay for the new Issues like you do for EQ and your complaining. Once again, if you have so many complaints stop playing and keep your money. Come to the dance with a solution not more problems.
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BTW, part of it, is that these are permanent. And will continue to be permanent for any characters they create in the future. If these were temp powers...even if these were somewhat better temp powers...it would still be annoying, but at least it would only be for a period, and at some time, things will be back as they were.
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I agree with this, whole heartedly. When I first found out that powers were going to be given out at cons, I was very upset. Then, I thought I heard they would only be temporary. (There may be a case where this is still true.) And I'm totally fine with that. Getting to play with some neat toy for a few months after a con is totally fine. But getting something permanent that I will never be able to have? That upsets me.
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I'd pay 10 bucks a shot for that. Am I whining? No. I'm just suggesting a future course of action. Please stop ripping into people that have a different opinion than the "hardline" It's really rather rude, and degrades those of us who are voicing legitimate arguments.
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This. Let me repost something I used in an LJ discussion about the same topic:
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It's like the difference between telling a depressed-person that they have no right to be depressed, versus telling them not to kill themselves. In the second instance you are tellin them to not take a certain action because you find that action (killing themselves) to be unreasonable. Telling them that they have no right to be depressed, or that they're depressed over something trivial, is completely invalidating that person's opinions and emotions. Does that make sense?
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The person then said that it wasn't a fair comparison because depression is caused by a chemical imbalance and can't be helped. To which I responded:
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I wasn't making a comparison, I was trying to use an analogy to illustrate my point. People are entitled to their opinion whether or not you find them to be reasonable. I dislike PvP, that doesn't mean I think people who like PvP are unreasonable. I love curry, that doesn't mean I think people who don't like curry are unreasonable. People can feel about things however they want to feel about them. And to be fair, there is an enormous group of people who are upset that the PPD hardsuit is being given away to a small group of people. We are well within our right to say "I am disappointed with this decision. I would like to see this made available in some other way. Also, I would like the devs to show up to more conventions, including on the east coast, if they're going to continue to do things like this." Even if we were voicing concern over something absolutely retarded, like the "I want a green pixel instead of blue" I mentioned above - we're well within our right to voice our concern. That's why they're opinions. And your attitude still makes it seem like people are not entitled to an opinion that differs from yours.
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Back to my replies within this thread:
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And for people, going on about fairness, on princable i see your point, i do, but, the truth is, LIFE isn't fair, on so many more GRAND levels then this... it just seems to trivial to fight over. It might not be fair, but it's a game where talking about, not some kid stricken with cancer or aids or something, which from the HATE and VENOM, and PASSION i read in some of these postes, you'd THINK was the case.
Prospictive people...
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First of all, I don't know what "Prospictive" is, but I have excellent perspective. If we took your stance we might not have many of the things in the game that we have now, which many people enjoy. Trench coats, Pocket D, wings ... who knows what would have made it into the game if we'd never asked for them? But there are many things that we've suggested that the Devs might never have thought of on their own. So are you suggesting that we should just go along with everything the Devs do and never voice our concerns? I think it's excellent that so many of us are so passionate about this product that we want to make it better. If we had no suggestions, wouldn't that mean we didn't care? I agree that the calls for crusades, the hate, the namecalling, all of it is ineffective and unwarranted. But we all have a right to express our opinions, even if it's in a passionate manner.
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If they sell it, you will have people complaining that NCNC is greedy, grabbing for money, and that CoX is becoming "all about microtransactions". And no matter what the price is set at, it will be "too high" for many.
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So what you're saying is that the people who complain about NCNC offering things for money are "more valid" than the people who are upset that something is being given to a small group of people, and will be absolutely unavailable forever for most of the population. That the "nickle and dime" complainers are more important than the people who want to at least have the option to access all of the game's content.
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I miss when the majority of the posts here were constructive. They seem so far between anymore.
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So it's more constructive to tell people that their opinion is invalid and that they have no right to get upset about something just because you're not upset about it?
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Having ultra-rare or unique items that only a handful of players will ever be able to obtain is a really BAD idea.
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Like Anniversery Badges or Bug Hunter?
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Anniversary badges are like vet rewards - you had a shot the same as everyone else by plunking down your cash when they did. I missed the second one because of a computer problem and it bothers but it's not the devs fault nor do I begrudge anyone else about it.
But you REALLY don't want to get me started on the BugHunter badge. It's the one that makes me madder then ANYTHING else the devs have done. Well, with the exception of E.D. but I may get over E.D. someday. I won't get over BugHunter as long as it's ingame the way it is.
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IGNORING THE SILLY DRAMA OF THE THREAD...
I will be at whatever Meet and Greet there is unless something happens and Seattle like... blows up or something.
-Da Big Bug
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Sorry Bug, I think the silly drama ignored you! 
I guess being able to turn into a PPD hardsuit permanently is enough to forget what this thread is really about; PAX and hanging out with fellow CoX'rs.
I wish I was going, but I'm in North Carolina, so its looking doubtful. I'd love to have a PPD costume, but, oh well. At first, I thought it was a customizable costume SET, and I was pissed I wouldn't be getting one. Once the Devs said it was just a perma-Halloween costume toggle, I wasn't quite as bothered.
Maybe to satiate everyone, they should just make it a Vet reward. Or, even better, give us the choice of one permanent Halloween Costume.
Had an Idea... (dangerous things, those Ideas)...
If people want the PPD Powersuit ingame, how about making it a reward for those who have run radio missions in X number of areas? Something akin to the Task Force Commander Badge, but give em a (police) badge and the costume as an Icon Option.
Just a suggestion from another player whose chances of going to Seattle are slim to none.
My 50s since Apr 28 2004:
Sugoi Emp/Psi Def (x3), Sugoi-chan Emp/Psi Def (x2), Sugoi T Bot/FF MM
Frankie Fusion Kin/Rad Def (x3), Ramu Ele/Ele Bla (x2), Krystal Kinnison ILL/Kin Con
Sakaki Neko Cla/Reg Scr, ViArc PB, Vinda Nordstrom Kin/Ice Def
Shooting Emp Emp/DP Def, Yuri Shimazu Kin/DP Def, Incarnette EB/EM Bla (x2), Infinette PB
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IGNORING THE SILLY DRAMA OF THE THREAD...
I will be at whatever Meet and Greet there is unless something happens and Seattle like... blows up or something.
-Da Big Bug
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Sorry Bug, I think the silly drama ignored you! I guess being able to turn into a PPD hardsuit permanently is enough to forget what this thread is really about; PAX and hanging out with fellow CoX'rs.
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When a redname opens up an official "Talk about the PPD hardsuit issue here" thread, I will move the discussion there. Until then, you have no authority to dictate the direction of this thread, since the PPD hardsuit issue is obviously related to the event in question.
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I may have agreed with you if the give away item was of some significance. I don't think it is. It's a nice little giveaway...it's not even a costume set where you can mix and match.
It's a gimmick for these shows. Way too much drama over something so minor. I had to almost gag when I saw the last giveaway item was just sold on ebay for $230. Some people need to get their priorities in order!
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The item being given away is of no significance to you, yet people are willing to pay $230 for it, which should tell you it is of significance to some portion of the COH subscriber base.
This isn't a bad thing - because it takes all of the COH subscribers together to pay the bills, generate a profit, and keep those updates rolling out.
The math is simple: the more players the game has, the larger the budget for updates and game improvements. Which means that the more badge collectors, costume enthusiasts, comic book collectors, superhero roleplayers, altaholics, and whatever other sub genres the game can attract, the better.
This isn't a zero sum game where costume enthusiasts getting a new outfit means the badge collectors or PvPers are losing out. When one segment of the population is thriving, we all win.
If giving the PPD hardsuit to PAX attendees will please 0.1% of the players and upset 15%, whereas giving it for free to PAX attendees and making it available (somehow) to everyone else will please 25% of the population and upset 0.1% of the players... well the math seems simple to me.
Edited my post to add this: All of my numbers are guesstimates. But my general point still stands. We all want the same thing - we all want COH to do well and continue to be successful. Which means we need every player to be having a good time - not just the players who are exactly like us.
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I have to say that I'm not terribly happy with in-game rewards, even inconsequential ones, being given out at real-life events. I'm not going to rant against it or lose any sleep over it, but the availability of these things is being constrained in an extreme fashion. If the NCNC crew wants to show appreciation for fan turnout at conventions and such, they should hand out T-shirts, bumper stickers or such.
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So, explain this to me then:
Why is okay to hand out things like exclusive bumper stickers, T-Shirts, and other items, but not in-game options like badges, costume options, or non-game affecting temp powers?
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Because it's obvious that they CAN'T provide those to everyone, while they COULD provide the in-game things to people. And while someone in game may say "I got this great T-shirt at PAX", giving me some jealousy, they can't suddenly morph into the appearance of the T-shirt in game.
And frankly...a bumper sticker or a T-shirt or things like that might expose new people to the game, as opposed to just being shown to people already in the game.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
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IGNORING THE SILLY DRAMA OF THE THREAD...
I will be at whatever Meet and Greet there is unless something happens and Seattle like... blows up or something.
-Da Big Bug
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Sorry Bug, I think the silly drama ignored you! I guess being able to turn into a PPD hardsuit permanently is enough to forget what this thread is really about; PAX and hanging out with fellow CoX'rs.
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When a redname opens up an official "Talk about the PPD hardsuit issue here" thread, I will move the discussion there. Until then, you have no authority to dictate the direction of this thread, since the PPD hardsuit issue is obviously related to the event in question.
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Um no one is trying to dictate authority over you. Some of us who are going to PAX would just like to enjoy this convention, and find it unfortunate that the thread is full of controversy over in-game exclusives now.
I really think the mods should have made a separate thread, and I did actually PM Ex requesting that. But in the meantime, there is really no need to be hostile here. I'm sorry if folks are bent-out-of-shape over exclusives, but that's no reason to take it out on those of us who just want to enjoy a fun event, regardless of what digital trinket we may or may not get for attending.
Not exactly a reply to the above, but even non-ingame items would catch my interest in having them. Even that I'm not in North America I'd probably buy the T-shirts and whatnot if the option is given to international users.
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So, explain this to me then:
Why is okay to hand out things like exclusive bumper stickers, T-Shirts, and other items, but not in-game options like badges, costume options, or non-game affecting temp powers?
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IMO, handing out ingame items affects the game experience, may it be badges, costume options or non-game affecting temp powers. T-shirts, bumper stickers and etc, do not. Players have a desire for a costume power because it's going to make their game more fun, thus affecting their game experience.
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IGNORING THE SILLY DRAMA OF THE THREAD...
I will be at whatever Meet and Greet there is unless something happens and Seattle like... blows up or something.
-Da Big Bug
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Sorry Bug, I think the silly drama ignored you! I guess being able to turn into a PPD hardsuit permanently is enough to forget what this thread is really about; PAX and hanging out with fellow CoX'rs.
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When a redname opens up an official "Talk about the PPD hardsuit issue here" thread, I will move the discussion there. Until then, you have no authority to dictate the direction of this thread, since the PPD hardsuit issue is obviously related to the event in question.
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Um no one is trying to dictate authority over you. Some of us who are going to PAX would just like to enjoy this convention, and find it unfortunate that the thread is full of controversy over in-game exclusives now.
I really think the mods should have made a separate thread, and I did actually PM Ex requesting that. But in the meantime, there is really no need to be hostile here. I'm sorry if folks are bent-out-of-shape over exclusives, but that's no reason to take it out on those of us who just want to enjoy a fun event, regardless of what digital trinket we may or may not get for attending.
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Ohh, so you're saying that they was no implication that we should stop talking about the PPD hardsuit issue? I misunderstood the intent of those replies, then.
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Yes, I understand it is important for companies to have a strong showing at these types of events - mostly for bragging rights, as these events do not appear to result in a bump in game subscribers - but my point is these events should be handled in such a way that you make net gains with your customer base.
Here I would say things were adding up to a net loss, which is probably not the direction they want to be headed.
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Actually, the main reason for going to these events is to get NEW customers. There are a lot of people at those conventions who match up nicely with the type of people playing the game now, but either may not have heard of CoH or may have heard of it but not heard about the fun stuff going on these days.
Yes, it's also an opportunity to meet with people who do play the games, make them feel good about the game and hopefully talk to others about the game. And special events like the Meet and Great are all about current customers. But usually, the swag given out is designed to help spread the word...T-shirts (walking billboards), Bumper Stickers (driving billboards), Bobble-headed dolls (cubical billboards).
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
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Um no one is trying to dictate authority over you. Some of us who are going to PAX would just like to enjoy this convention, and find it unfortunate that the thread is full of controversy over in-game exclusives now.
I really think the mods should have made a separate thread, and I did actually PM Ex requesting that. But in the meantime, there is really no need to be hostile here. I'm sorry if folks are bent-out-of-shape over exclusives, but that's no reason to take it out on those of us who just want to enjoy a fun event, regardless of what digital trinket we may or may not get for attending.
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The problem is that the rednames are advertising the digital trinket, and so that's going to result in feedback. I started posting in this thread because I saw a post by ExLibris with a picture of the costume power.
If I could go, the reason I'd go would be the fun and talking to the rednames. Which really makes this even more baffling to me. For those who play the game, no incentive beyond "meet people, have fun, talk to rednames, maybe learn something cool" is necessary. And for those who don't play the game, it's not an incentive.
If, on the other hand (as an example) they were giving out those new gamecards, that gives people a month plus the use of a jetpack for a month, it might be mildly jealousy-causing to see all those new characters with the jetpack, but I'd understand it...aha, what a cool way to get new people to try the game! (And after 30 days, the jetpacks all go away.)
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
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IGNORING THE SILLY DRAMA OF THE THREAD...
I will be at whatever Meet and Greet there is unless something happens and Seattle like... blows up or something.
-Da Big Bug
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Sorry Bug, I think the silly drama ignored you! I guess being able to turn into a PPD hardsuit permanently is enough to forget what this thread is really about; PAX and hanging out with fellow CoX'rs.
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When a redname opens up an official "Talk about the PPD hardsuit issue here" thread, I will move the discussion there. Until then, you have no authority to dictate the direction of this thread, since the PPD hardsuit issue is obviously related to the event in question.
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Um no one is trying to dictate authority over you. Some of us who are going to PAX would just like to enjoy this convention, and find it unfortunate that the thread is full of controversy over in-game exclusives now.
I really think the mods should have made a separate thread, and I did actually PM Ex requesting that. But in the meantime, there is really no need to be hostile here. I'm sorry if folks are bent-out-of-shape over exclusives, but that's no reason to take it out on those of us who just want to enjoy a fun event, regardless of what digital trinket we may or may not get for attending.
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Ohh, so you're saying that they was no implication that we should stop talking about the PPD hardsuit issue? I misunderstood the intent of those replies, then.
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"Implication" is a whole lot different from "dictate authority."
I'm trying to make an implication that I wish people would try to be respectful and not take a crap on an event that some folks here would like to enjoy. In no way am I dictating any authority however. I have no authority to dictate. It's just my humble opinion that the place would smell better if we could somehow have the controversy moved to a more appropriate location.
Like I said, I did PM Ex about it... Maybe she'll be able to start up a new thread.
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It's a gimmick for these shows. Way too much drama over something so minor. I had to almost gag when I saw the last giveaway item was just sold on ebay for $230. Some people need to get their priorities in order!
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<joker>It's not about the money. It's about sending a message... </joker>
The Widow's Dark Hand - leader of Faux Pas
Champion Server
Tee Hee!
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IGNORING THE SILLY DRAMA OF THE THREAD...
I will be at whatever Meet and Greet there is unless something happens and Seattle like... blows up or something.
-Da Big Bug
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Sorry Bug, I think the silly drama ignored you! I guess being able to turn into a PPD hardsuit permanently is enough to forget what this thread is really about; PAX and hanging out with fellow CoX'rs.
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When a redname opens up an official "Talk about the PPD hardsuit issue here" thread, I will move the discussion there. Until then, you have no authority to dictate the direction of this thread, since the PPD hardsuit issue is obviously related to the event in question.
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I think I love quoting you
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I generally have a lot of respect for your opinions, but implying that anyone who dislikes the decision made by marketing in this instance is somehow being unreasonable is simply something I can't agree with.
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I never said that. I said I believe (and still believe) that the majority of reasonable players don't begrudge NC for creating exclusive marketing giveaways.
There are lots of decisions that either the dev team or NCsoft in general make that I either disagree with, or which go against my personal preferences (which are two different things). But thats not the same thing as saying I believe they are idiotic, incompetent, ignorant, unresponsive, or poor decision-makers every time they make a decision I disagree with.
I'm disappointed I missed the last double XP weekend. I do not believe NCsoft had an obligation to check with my schedule first. I can be disappointed in something without thinking that that fact alone makes the source of my disappointment deficient.
I also stand by my assertion that it is unreasonable to presume that being disappointed in a circumstance carries with it the presumption that someone made an error to create that circumstance. If I end up not getting the costume option, I'll be disappointed. It won't change my mind that NCsoft is being completely reasonable in its approach to marketing exclusives. I'm saying that with the full knowledge that there is very little probability of NCsoft being at a public venue anywhere within two thousand miles of me.
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Alright, lets run with your example. Let's say, for the sake of argument, NCSoft decides for marketing reasons to only have Double XP Weekends for logins from the states of California, Oregon and Washington.
So, if you want to experience a Double XP Weekend, from here on out you have to either live in one of those three states or plan a vacation around being in one of those three (along with all the associated expenses) during the Double XP Weekend. And for extra fun, they'll only announce them a few weeks in advance.
If you don't like it, tough. Life's not fair and you have no reasonable reason to complain because it rewards people who are helping the economy close to their HQ (which is good for the HQ) and shows "love" for the people who choose to live close by. You have just as much opportunity to move to one of those three states or make sure you're in one at the exact right time as anyone else so, by the definaition of those for these con giveaways, it's completely an utterly fair.
Should NC actually make such a marketing decision, I predict widespread fallout, which is why they won't do it. It would anger to many people. However, the costume/temp power crowd, we'll they're expendable, too small to matter. NC knows this move angers and disappoints part of their population, they just flat out don't care, that part is too small to worry over.
Is that how things should be? Who knows. NC is a business. They do what they do to make money (preferably lots of it). They don't care if what they do is fair until enough people decide it isn't and it starts to hurt their bottom line. Then they care, but only then. Everything else is just background noise they can ignore. That's not evil, it's just business as usual.
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I think that may just be the best worded, utterly nonsensical argument I've ever read.
Not the same.
Not even remotely the same.
*Deleted*
I messed up 
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You can always tell when one side has taken a position they can't defend.
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Pretty much. So why do you continue to take that side?
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What we have here is an example of what's known as "quotemining." It's a well known tactic used by dishonest people who know their argument is false.
Quite telling of just how bad of a time the side using it is having and that the person using it knows they don't have a leg to stand on with their argument.
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Really now? How am I dishonest? Oh wait, that's right... it's because you don't agree with my opinion. So, rather then, y'know, actually taking into consideration my stance you look for ways to just blow me off. What's next, going to go for my post count or my Registration date?
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Yes,the post I quoted was dishonest. I rather hope you can see that. You quotemined to stip off context, which is dishonest, then tried to twist the now contextless quote, which is dishonest.
Now you make claims about me that are also false. I have considered your stance, I have also considered your attitude and posts. All are lacking.
But don't let that stop another dishonest tirade. I'm rather enjoying you self-destructing again.
One the up side, you did prove my point for me, you lumped me into some big faceless "anti" side. One I'm not in. I frankly don't care outside of any future ramifications to the game and community. I am interested in seeing how the discussion plays out though, especially since you're being so helpful in illustrating the points in my posts.
I will say, however, that the "pro" side is swaying me. Their hostility and attitude are slowly making me think these giveaways are a bad idea and need to be halted for the sake of the community we have here.