Discussion: PAX- Seattle Aug 29-31st
By
4_Thirty_5,
Posted on: 2008-04-25 17:46 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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Having ultra-rare or unique items that only a handful of players will ever be able to obtain is a really BAD idea.
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Like Anniversery Badges or Bug Hunter?
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No.
Like complete purple sets. 
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BTW, part of it, is that these are permanent. And will continue to be permanent for any characters they create in the future. If these were temp powers...even if these were somewhat better temp powers...it would still be annoying, but at least it would only be for a period, and at some time, things will be back as they were.
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I agree with this, whole heartedly. When I first found out that powers were going to be given out at cons, I was very upset. Then, I thought I heard they would only be temporary. (There may be a case where this is still true.) And I'm totally fine with that. Getting to play with some neat toy for a few months after a con is totally fine. But getting something permanent that I will never be able to have? That upsets me.
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I'd pay 10 bucks a shot for that. Am I whining? No. I'm just suggesting a future course of action. Please stop ripping into people that have a different opinion than the "hardline" It's really rather rude, and degrades those of us who are voicing legitimate arguments.
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This. Let me repost something I used in an LJ discussion about the same topic:
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It's like the difference between telling a depressed-person that they have no right to be depressed, versus telling them not to kill themselves. In the second instance you are tellin them to not take a certain action because you find that action (killing themselves) to be unreasonable. Telling them that they have no right to be depressed, or that they're depressed over something trivial, is completely invalidating that person's opinions and emotions. Does that make sense?
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The person then said that it wasn't a fair comparison because depression is caused by a chemical imbalance and can't be helped. To which I responded:
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I wasn't making a comparison, I was trying to use an analogy to illustrate my point. People are entitled to their opinion whether or not you find them to be reasonable. I dislike PvP, that doesn't mean I think people who like PvP are unreasonable. I love curry, that doesn't mean I think people who don't like curry are unreasonable. People can feel about things however they want to feel about them. And to be fair, there is an enormous group of people who are upset that the PPD hardsuit is being given away to a small group of people. We are well within our right to say "I am disappointed with this decision. I would like to see this made available in some other way. Also, I would like the devs to show up to more conventions, including on the east coast, if they're going to continue to do things like this." Even if we were voicing concern over something absolutely retarded, like the "I want a green pixel instead of blue" I mentioned above - we're well within our right to voice our concern. That's why they're opinions. And your attitude still makes it seem like people are not entitled to an opinion that differs from yours.
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Back to my replies within this thread:
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And for people, going on about fairness, on princable i see your point, i do, but, the truth is, LIFE isn't fair, on so many more GRAND levels then this... it just seems to trivial to fight over. It might not be fair, but it's a game where talking about, not some kid stricken with cancer or aids or something, which from the HATE and VENOM, and PASSION i read in some of these postes, you'd THINK was the case.
Prospictive people...
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First of all, I don't know what "Prospictive" is, but I have excellent perspective. If we took your stance we might not have many of the things in the game that we have now, which many people enjoy. Trench coats, Pocket D, wings ... who knows what would have made it into the game if we'd never asked for them? But there are many things that we've suggested that the Devs might never have thought of on their own. So are you suggesting that we should just go along with everything the Devs do and never voice our concerns? I think it's excellent that so many of us are so passionate about this product that we want to make it better. If we had no suggestions, wouldn't that mean we didn't care? I agree that the calls for crusades, the hate, the namecalling, all of it is ineffective and unwarranted. But we all have a right to express our opinions, even if it's in a passionate manner.
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If they sell it, you will have people complaining that NCNC is greedy, grabbing for money, and that CoX is becoming "all about microtransactions". And no matter what the price is set at, it will be "too high" for many.
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So what you're saying is that the people who complain about NCNC offering things for money are "more valid" than the people who are upset that something is being given to a small group of people, and will be absolutely unavailable forever for most of the population. That the "nickle and dime" complainers are more important than the people who want to at least have the option to access all of the game's content.
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I miss when the majority of the posts here were constructive. They seem so far between anymore.
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So it's more constructive to tell people that their opinion is invalid and that they have no right to get upset about something just because you're not upset about it?
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I DO love quoting you! 
And I'm done now. Sapph has said all that I have to say on the issue! 
People feel so entitled and get so defensive. Geeeze. So excuse me if I DERAIL YOUR ENTITLED DOMINATION OVER THIS THREAD.
I spoke with Tycho and Gabe at the Comic Con and they were as impressed as we were at the growth of PAX. I mean going from 12k to 37k a year later is really impressive. I asked if they thought it would increase even more this year and they said it was hard to believe it to be possible. I mean that's close to 10% of the entire population of Seattle. 
I think it's going to be awesome though and want to see more posts about people going and what they will be doing? As long as that doesn't offend anyone who thinks they own this thread now.
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I generally have a lot of respect for your opinions, but implying that anyone who dislikes the decision made by marketing in this instance is somehow being unreasonable is simply something I can't agree with.
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I never said that. I said I believe (and still believe) that the majority of reasonable players don't begrudge NC for creating exclusive marketing giveaways.
There are lots of decisions that either the dev team or NCsoft in general make that I either disagree with, or which go against my personal preferences (which are two different things). But thats not the same thing as saying I believe they are idiotic, incompetent, ignorant, unresponsive, or poor decision-makers every time they make a decision I disagree with.
I'm disappointed I missed the last double XP weekend. I do not believe NCsoft had an obligation to check with my schedule first. I can be disappointed in something without thinking that that fact alone makes the source of my disappointment deficient.
I also stand by my assertion that it is unreasonable to presume that being disappointed in a circumstance carries with it the presumption that someone made an error to create that circumstance. If I end up not getting the costume option, I'll be disappointed. It won't change my mind that NCsoft is being completely reasonable in its approach to marketing exclusives. I'm saying that with the full knowledge that there is very little probability of NCsoft being at a public venue anywhere within two thousand miles of me.
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Alright, lets run with your example. Let's say, for the sake of argument, NCSoft decides for marketing reasons to only have Double XP Weekends for logins from the states of California, Oregon and Washington.
So, if you want to experience a Double XP Weekend, from here on out you have to either live in one of those three states or plan a vacation around being in one of those three (along with all the associated expenses) during the Double XP Weekend. And for extra fun, they'll only announce them a few weeks in advance.
If you don't like it, tough. Life's not fair and you have no reasonable reason to complain because it rewards people who are helping the economy close to their HQ (which is good for the HQ) and shows "love" for the people who choose to live close by. You have just as much opportunity to move to one of those three states or make sure you're in one at the exact right time as anyone else so, by the definaition of those for these con giveaways, it's completely an utterly fair.
Should NC actually make such a marketing decision, I predict widespread fallout, which is why they won't do it. It would anger to many people. However, the costume/temp power crowd, we'll they're expendable, too small to matter. NC knows this move angers and disappoints part of their population, they just flat out don't care, that part is too small to worry over.
Is that how things should be? Who knows. NC is a business. They do what they do to make money (preferably lots of it). They don't care if what they do is fair until enough people decide it isn't and it starts to hurt their bottom line. Then they care, but only then. Everything else is just background noise they can ignore. That's not evil, it's just business as usual.
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I think that may just be the best worded, utterly nonsensical argument I've ever read.
Not the same.
Not even remotely the same.
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Nope, it isn't. In fact, it's has a major, glaring flaw. Limiting Double XP Weekends to just three states would be too many people for the comparison to be correct. For it to be correct, the devs would have to select fewer than 1,000 people IN those three states. Otherwise, it's spot on.
It merely shows the absurdity of the argument it was a reply to. That you can spot that the argument is nonsensical is excellent, it shows you recognize that the argument itÂ’s derived from is also nonsensical unless one has some emotional attachment to the argument it's derived from and is ignoring that fact.
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You can always tell when one side has taken a position they can't defend.
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Pretty much. So why do you continue to take that side?
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What we have here is an example of what's known as "quotemining." It's a well known tactic used by dishonest people who know their argument is false.
Quite telling of just how bad of a time the side using it is having and that the person using it knows they don't have a leg to stand on with their argument.
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Oh the irony.
It hurtsess!
It hurtsess us!
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Let's see, I've quoted posts in full. i have allowed for context, I have replied to those quotes. No quotemining. But the dishonest implication in your post does lend more weight to my statements about the "pro" side lacking arguments they can back and resorting to outright dishonesty.
Again, thank you for proving my points.
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People feel so entitled and get so defensive. Geeeze. So excuse me if I DERAIL YOUR ENTITLED DOMINATION OVER THIS THREAD.
I spoke with Tycho and Gabe at the Comic Con and they were as impressed as we were at the growth of PAX. I mean going from 12k to 37k a year later is really impressive. I asked if they thought it would increase even more this year and they said it was hard to believe it to be possible. I mean that's close to 10% of the entire population of Seattle.
I think it's going to be awesome though and want to see more posts about people going and what they will be doing? As long as that doesn't offend anyone who thinks they own this thread now.
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MURH?!?
Are you talking to me?
Are you talkin' to me?!?
Don't make me stop this car!!!
All your thread... are belong to us!
Just getting caught up in the daily drama of much ado about nothing. Not interested enough to check back too often. So I skimmed and responded where I thought appropriate.
Carry on with your event-planning... yeesh! You'd think it was somehow important and people traveling from miles around to attend and were tying to get the most out of it.
From a business management perspective, this is actually a great way to get people to attend a convention that would not normally attend one like myself. On the other hand, it is only across the country from me.
So I do end up thinking that this is a bit unfair for players like myself.
But then again, this is not a type of "attack/defense" power, so it is not game affecting, so it is kind of cool. More of a bragging rights sort of thing.....
I attended Pax 08 and all I got was this costume; "shirt".
But then again this upsets me when certain players can earn something that others cannot, or perhaps will not be able to get. And if these players can get an exclusive costume power, then why couldn't I and others that were here for the first year of holiday events have exclusive event badges that no one else could get.
You are making me have emotions I myself do not understand!
Still, it is a good idea. Perhaps one day, your company will come to our yearly Trek Expo here.
Great event and a good idea.
I'm sure the devs will eventually let their SUBSCRIBERS get that in game item or something similar later on.
Since there already is a similar type of costume (I believe its called Ex Proto, but since I don't have the costume creator open in front of me as I type this, my memory might be off) already in game I'm not too upset about this.
EDIT: Also agreed with more of these events needing to be spread across the country to make it more fair to even be able to ATTEND the event.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
<-- will be at PAX, may attend the M&G depending on other plans that evening
Kam
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<-- will be at PAX, may attend the M&G depending on other plans that evening
Kam
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Happy Birthday!
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You can always tell when one side has taken a position they can't defend.
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Pretty much. So why do you continue to take that side?
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What we have here is an example of what's known as "quotemining." It's a well known tactic used by dishonest people who know their argument is false.
Quite telling of just how bad of a time the side using it is having and that the person using it knows they don't have a leg to stand on with their argument.
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Oh the irony.
It hurtsess!
It hurtsess us!
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Let's see, I've quoted posts in full. i have allowed for context, I have replied to those quotes. No quotemining. But the dishonest implication in your post does lend more weight to my statements about the "pro" side lacking arguments they can back and resorting to outright dishonesty.
Again, thank you for proving my points.
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Uhm...
You seem mighty free with throwing the word "dishonest" at anyone who says anything about your responses that are not in full agreement with them. Dishonest?!? Snarky and lighthearted... sure. But I challenge you to find a single dishonest thing about anything I've said.
Go ahead...
Go back and read what I've actually said.
Then point out a dishonest statement on my part.
Then, when you fail in that, I'll be waiting for an apology... in vain I'm sure, but feel free to surprise me.
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You can always tell when one side has taken a position they can't defend.
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Pretty much. So why do you continue to take that side?
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What we have here is an example of what's known as "quotemining." It's a well known tactic used by dishonest people who know their argument is false.
Quite telling of just how bad of a time the side using it is having and that the person using it knows they don't have a leg to stand on with their argument.
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Oh the irony.
It hurtsess!
It hurtsess us!
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Let's see, I've quoted posts in full. i have allowed for context, I have replied to those quotes. No quotemining. But the dishonest implication in your post does lend more weight to my statements about the "pro" side lacking arguments they can back and resorting to outright dishonesty.
Again, thank you for proving my points.
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Uhm...
You seem mighty free with throwing the word "dishonest" at anyone who says anything about your responses that are not in full agreement with them. Dishonest?!? Snarky and lighthearted... sure. But I challenge you to find a single dishonest thing about anything I've said.
Go ahead...
Go back and read what I've actually said.
Then point out a dishonest statement on my part.
Then, when you fail in that, I'll be waiting for an apology... in vain I'm sure, but feel free to surprise me.
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The post in question was dishonest. Sorry, that's the truth. If it wasn't I wouldn't have refered to it as such. Agreement or disagreement has nothing to do with it. You called my post irony, it wasn't, it was a direct quote, in context. Therefore your assessment was dishonest or ignorant, I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you wouldn't post on a subject you were clueless about so it had to be dishonesty. If it was ignorance of the meaning of "irony" I do apologize.
So, which was it, did you do something dishonest or were you merely shooting your mouth off in ignorance? 
ummm, are people still crying in this thread?
time to get over it and move on.
i, for one, will be at PAX and at the M&G that follows
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Just would like to point out that many of the people that don't have a problem with the in-game freebie that NC is giving away to people that attend PAX are also people that are going or think they may go to PAX.
I just wanted to point that out.
Edited to say many instead of most.
Re: post above me - Nevermind, I TOTALLY misread your post. I am sorry. :x *delete*
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Just would like to point out that most if not all of the people that don't have a problem with the in-game freebie that NC is giving away to people that attend PAX are also people that are going or think they may go to PAX.
I just wanted to point that out.
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I'm not sure you can go that far. You may be able to make that statement about the people in this thread though I'm not 100% sure it's defensable; IIR several "pro" people aren't going like LiquidX and are arguing from the stance of "I like it" rather than the lesser "I like it because I get to go."
I think you might be able to get away with "many of the people" who are going, but I don't think "most" is something that can be easily backed. You could also likely defend "anyone who gets one via the correct channels is for it" since if you're not for it and you have one, you're not strongly against them (else you would have turned it down on principle).
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Just would like to point out that most if not all of the people that don't have a problem with the in-game freebie that NC is giving away to people that attend PAX are also people that are going or think they may go to PAX.
I just wanted to point that out.
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The promise of an exclusive has no bearing on my enjoyment of PAX. I paid for my three day pass for PAX months ago, completely unaware that there would be any such CoH goodies involved. What I'm really looking forward to is getting together and socializing with other CoX players. The reason we're being positive in this thread isn't because we're looking forward to lording shiny exclusives over the rest of the players who couldn't make it. Far from it. We're really just interested in enjoying our event.
Also for the record, I'm sure there will be exclusives at the October Bay Area event too. I'm not going to that one, will not get the exclusives, and I'm 100% ok with that too. I wish the people who are going a good time, and am not going to get petty or complain about little stuff.
Redbone,
I'm sorry you're so displeased with the decision NCSoft has made in offering an in-game power as a promotional item at PAX that makes the recipients characters look like a PPD Hardsuit.
The fact of the matter is, this is the second such item offered at a similar event and apparently, as there was no actual fallout from the initial offering, they have deemed it a useful and worthwhile thing. Personally, I happen to agree, and not just because I work next door to the Convention Center in Downtown Seattle.
I'd like to think that if the company continues to hold these sorts of gatherings in various parts of the country, that more people would have access to a similar, yet different in-game item. As this is the second of such offerings, perhaps a patient, wait-and-see attitude would serve some folks better. Or as we have seen in the past, perhaps there will be a universal offering of these sorts of things at a later date. Assuredly, I would love to have an actual costume set of the PPD Hardsuit that could be mixed and matched with other costume items. I'm guessing you would too.
It is a shame that some people have valued this giveaway so highly that it fetches more than a year's subscription to the game on a well known auction site. In my estimation, this is a gross over-estimation of the value of these sorts of things. And yet, I am unsurprised by this, as we live in an instant gratification society whose members, in general, have a major sense of entitlement.
To close, while I can empathize with your desire to have this in-game item, at the end of the day, it is NCSoft's game and decision. You and I only pay to play their game.
My advice to you : If you feel this strongly about it, vote with your wallet and unsub.
Sign It : http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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IGNORING THE SILLY DRAMA OF THE THREAD...
I will be at whatever Meet and Greet there is unless something happens and Seattle like... blows up or something.
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I was planning on being there - until I realized just how little the Dev's care about the Meet and Greet. Last year Posi blew it off to speak on a panel. This year, they can't even make the effort to find a venue.
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
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IGNORING THE SILLY DRAMA OF THE THREAD...
I will be at whatever Meet and Greet there is unless something happens and Seattle like... blows up or something.
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I was planning on being there - until I realized just how little the Dev's care about the Meet and Greet. Last year Posi blew it off to speak on a panel. This year, they can't even make the effort to find a venue.
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I think that might be a little unfair. I don't know about Posi's situation, but having been on a constaff before, I know that your panel guests are selected ahead of time. If one of the panel guests doesn't show up, that really sucks for all the people who signed up to hear that person speak. If the M&G is scheduled at the same time that one of the devs is supposed to be at a panel, they can't do much about that. Also, one of the rednames did mention that they were having a hard time finding a venue, but that didn't mean they'd given up. You probably wouldn't have had much luck either. Another thing I've had the (mis)fortune to experience is trying to plan meetings/dinners and so on (for corporate board meetings in this case) and restaurants want a specific headcount before they'll reserve anything for you.
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Also for the record, I'm sure there will be exclusives at the October Bay Area event too. I'm not going to that one, will not get the exclusives, and I'm 100% ok with that too. I wish the people who are going a good time, and am not going to get petty or complain about little stuff.
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Yet another west coast event! Why are they unwilling to come to the east coast?
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Nope, it isn't. In fact, it's has a major, glaring flaw. Limiting Double XP Weekends to just three states would be too many people for the comparison to be correct. For it to be correct, the devs would have to select fewer than 1,000 people IN those three states. Otherwise, it's spot on.
It merely shows the absurdity of the argument it was a reply to. That you can spot that the argument is nonsensical is excellent, it shows you recognize that the argument it&#8217;s derived from is also nonsensical unless one has some emotional attachment to the argument it's derived from and is ignoring that fact.
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Nice try, but your example is nonsensical because you're sandbagging. You've selected an example in which there is no credible marketting purpose either stated or implied, and therefore obscuring the issue by changing the perspective of the problem to one of suggesting the PAX giveaways have no purpose.
A better example in the same vein would be to redraft your doubleXP example in a way that at least grants a legitimate marketting purpose to a restricted doubleXP period. Suppose NCsoft decides to open a new set of servers in India, because market research suggests that there are lots of Indian players that would want to play on regional servers. To promote the launch of the India servers, they offer any players that want to transfer to them a one-time free transfer of their characters, and for one week after launch, all players on the Indian servers will have doubleXP rewards in effect.
Here, there is a specific marketting purpose to a restricted doubleXP period, and its targetted at a relatively small subset of the player population. But I don't think its some unfair exclusionary reward that unjustly benefits Indians at my expense: in my opinion, that's an impractically narrow perspective.
This version of your otherwise broken analogy now correctly proposes the same (or at least as similar as the analogy allows) question: is it automatically bad for NCsoft to grant an exclusive reward to a subset of the player population, even if there is a legitimate marketting purpose to that reward.
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IGNORING THE SILLY DRAMA OF THE THREAD...
I will be at whatever Meet and Greet there is unless something happens and Seattle like... blows up or something.
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I was planning on being there - until I realized just how little the Dev's care about the Meet and Greet. Last year Posi blew it off to speak on a panel. This year, they can't even make the effort to find a venue.
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Shut yer hole. Ex Libris has been busting her butt working with the community, those of us who live in Seattle, to find a suitable venue. Try reading the Community tracker to see all the posts about it. Not to mention the plenty of PM's that you're not privvy to.
Ignorant posting for the lose.
Sign It : http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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IGNORING THE SILLY DRAMA OF THE THREAD...
I will be at whatever Meet and Greet there is unless something happens and Seattle like... blows up or something.
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I was planning on being there - until I realized just how little the Dev's care about the Meet and Greet. Last year Posi blew it off to speak on a panel. This year, they can't even make the effort to find a venue.
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I think that might be a little unfair. I don't know about Posi's situation, but having been on a constaff before, I know that your panel guests are selected ahead of time. If one of the panel guests doesn't show up, that really sucks for all the people who signed up to hear that person speak. If the M&G is scheduled at the same time that one of the devs is supposed to be at a panel, they can't do much about that. Also, one of the rednames did mention that they were having a hard time finding a venue, but that didn't mean they'd given up. You probably wouldn't have had much luck either. Another thing I've had the (mis)fortune to experience is trying to plan meetings/dinners and so on (for corporate board meetings in this case) and restaurants want a specific headcount before they'll reserve anything for you.
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Posi's situation was that Jack was supposed to be there, but couldn't make it because his wife was having a baby, and Posi had to go do the panel instead.
Understandable circumstances methinks.
Edit: Also he showed up after the panel was over.
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You can always tell when one side has taken a position they can't defend.
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Pretty much. So why do you continue to take that side?
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What we have here is an example of what's known as "quotemining." It's a well known tactic used by dishonest people who know their argument is false.
Quite telling of just how bad of a time the side using it is having and that the person using it knows they don't have a leg to stand on with their argument.
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Oh the irony.
It hurtsess!
It hurtsess us!