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Just goes to show you.. It's not the size of the team on the field, but how they play the game (in this case, that of development) that really produces quality.
Heck. I still like this game better then my other main game. <.<
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Agreed. I recently quit EQ2 (with no hate, just 4 years in one game), but I'm still able to get really excited about CoH. That's amazing at this point in its lifecycle.
lolchampionsonline
[/ QUOTE ]you quit eq2? im surprised, i remember you being a really vocal booster of it. im looking at maybe switching out myself to there for a month or 2. ill still be here, but just feeling some burnout, so might chill a bit till i12 hits.
We'll probably never know the reason for the cutdown, and on whose side it was.
But remember, NCSoft had two can't miss hits coming up...Auto Assault looked to be a real bit of fresh air, exciting universe, loads of potential. And Tabula Ras was coming from the biggest name in the online world, it would be his masterpiece. So when CoV's numbers proved disappointing (and that's hard to say they didn't), they could have decided to put their funds in these two hot properties and away from CoH/CoV.
Fast forward a few years. Auto Assault crashed and burned, and Tabula Ras both took far longer to develop than expected and yet has been disappointing in both critical acclaim and in the numbers. CoH and CoV meanwhile have been holding onto their userbase remarkably well, the developer team has pulled off miracles on a shoestring budget. And so reinvesting in the game makes a lot of sense. Maybe they wanted control, so decided to buy out Cryptic, or maybe Cryptic having moved on with new projects (including in the superhero range) and wondering if NCSoft will ramp up now but then ramp down again later so instead offers to sell.
And while clearly the devs had to see a future in order to move to NCNC, most of the devs coming would be part of the deal...if the announcement of the sale had said "and let us introduce you to your all-new development team", the NCSoft server would have crashed from the simultaneous attempts to cancel. So as part of the deal, there were sufficient incentives to get the devs to come along. My guess is that the incentives included a period of guaranteed investment in the game. Of course, those will all be under NDA
Now granted, that's one possibility. The other is that Cryptic also just reduced the numbers. Or more likely, somewhat inbetween. But the fact that they're investing in the game now, doesn't negate the possibility that they cut it way back previously.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
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Just goes to show you.. It's not the size of the team on the field, but how they play the game (in this case, that of development) that really produces quality.
Heck. I still like this game better then my other main game. <.<
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Agreed. I recently quit EQ2 (with no hate, just 4 years in one game), but I'm still able to get really excited about CoH. That's amazing at this point in its lifecycle.
lolchampionsonline
[/ QUOTE ]you quit eq2? im surprised, i remember you being a really vocal booster of it. im looking at maybe switching out myself to there for a month or 2. ill still be here, but just feeling some burnout, so might chill a bit till i12 hits.
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I'm still a big booster for the game. Just don't have the time to commit to it anymore. Two MMOs are hard. I did start a WoW account for when I need a fantasy fix, but leveling a noob mage in WoW isn't the same as trying to keep up with a level 80 healer in EQ2 who's guild expect him to help keep the mages alive on raids. 
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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The other area I though should be addressed is the idea that MUO was responsible for any change to CoH/V. My perception of what happened is the other way around: CoH / V was 'pared' (to use Positron's phrasing) and suddenly Cryptic had 45 staff to find projects for. Then along came MUO, with it's long stride and cocksure grin...
I could be completely wrong - only the people who were there know for sure. But I think it's stupidly simplistic (although probably fun) to think that MUO / Emmert were responsible for everything that happened.
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Now, I believe we have been told that these cuts to the developer team were after Issue Eight came out right?
Some basic facts that don't seem to support your opinion, and which a quick google search brings up relatively easily:
September 27th, 2006: MUO Announced in Barcelona.
November 28, 2006 Issue Eight launched. Development team cut after this point.
MUO was officially announced before Issue Eight even launched. You seem to be basing your opinion on the supposition that MUO came along after the decision to cut was made, but the chronology is far less certain than you make it out to be. MUO will have been a known fact within Cryptic long before it was officially announced. The cuts may have been as well I guess, but without any knowledge of who was responsible for the funding of the CoH dev team, its hard to know.
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Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
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Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
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there subs
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Where subs?
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
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- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
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Now, I believe we have been told that these cuts to the developer team were after Issue Eight came out right?
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I actually believe that the cuts to the dev team happened much earlier in 2006. It was announced that Positron became lead dev on April 28 2006, which puts the change between Issue 6 and Issue 7, not Issue 8. I'm sure there was a phased reduction in the team, but it is likely Issue 7 (launch: June 6, 2006) was the last time the larger team pulled something together. I'm pretty sure that Zeb Cook also left in April 2006 (or at least stopped posting).
As for when MUO came into the picture, I can't say. But it seems possible that a fantastic CoV launch would have seen Cryptic fully committed to their own projects, not looking to outside offers.
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Put it this way: If NCSoft is the real villain of the 'paring down,' and starved the development of CoH, then why did the whole Dev team (plus some others!) jump ship from Cryptic so readily to work for their cruel taskmasters?
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I've decided against using an emotive and descriptive counter to the above (although a cackling Emmert pointing at various CoH/V staff, screaming, "YOU'RE OFF THE GAME!" while lightning crackles overhead has its merits ;-) because I don't see it as productive. GadgetDon has already covered some of the main reasons as I see it, but in the end it comes down to generally cold business decisions.
In short, the budget got slashed before (2006), but things are still very profitable so it becomes a potential opportunity to expand (2007/08). The dev team, starved of resources for so long, is thrilled to get a new lease of life and to finally, finally do some of the things they've been talking about for so long. Plus they love the game.
The facts are that CoV failed to meet expectations in new subs. I don't know how much it cost to develop, but odds are that it was partly funded by Cryptic and partly funded by NCsoft. My understanding is that NCsoft funded a lot of the further development of CoH/V (or alternatively: takes a substantial proportion of the revenue and can select how much it reinvests) while Cryptic still held the reins. If they went, "we are reducing the development budget of CoH/V", then Cryptic weren't left with as much to work with.
I'm happy to be proven wrong if new information comes to light - I'll wipe the egg off my face and move forward. It could have very well been a mixed decision - NCsoft reduced their development payments after CoV while Cryptic had to cut back dev costs in order to repay development loans. But I get my back up when I see claims that MUO was the reason for the cut to staff, or that Emmert was malicious in his intent. I don't see it that way and want to put forward another theory that makes sense to me.
Of course, all this theorising is no doubt vastly amusing to the people who actually know what happened. :-)
Also, I don't see CoH 2 being a motivator to cut NCsoft out. After all, NCsoft would have to publish CoH 2 due to current IP contracts or Cryptic would have had to buy out NCsoft's rights to the CoH IP to independently launch it. Cryptic hasn't made a big secret that they are working on other projects - they've had development art up on their website for their other undisclosed projects for quite a while now.
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Also, I don't see CoH 2 being a motivator to cut NCsoft out. After all, NCsoft would have to publish CoH 2 due to current IP contracts or Cryptic would have had to buy out NCsoft's rights to the CoH IP to independently launch it. Cryptic hasn't made a big secret that they are working on other projects - they've had development art up on their website for their other undisclosed projects for quite a while now.
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I should have been more clear: By "CoH 2," I mean any successor to CoH, not actually part 2 of the franchise. Cryptic had to have been developing their new development tool by this time for their own projects, probably looking to some form of "CoH 2," i.e., and update to the superhero MMORPG doing all the things the old development tool couldn't do readily (e.g., power customizations). Whether this would be a true CoH 2 or some other franchise probably didn't matter too much to them at this point.
Along comes Microsoft looking for a developer for their Marvel license Superhero MMORPG to compete against WoW (I know, I know, hold your laughter). Whether Cryptic was looking for a bigger sugar daddy, or NCSoft was saying 'no' to a real CoH2 (the producers of Lineage I, II, and III saying no to CoH II?), Cryptic decided to create what could potentially be the CoH killer with a new Producer. Ummm... that just looks bad. Really bad. If MUO tanked, Cryptic still wins because they still have CoH and M$ is the loser. If MUO kills CoH, Cryptic and M$ win and NCSoft is the loser. Only Cryptic has nothing to lose in this scenario. If I was NCSoft, I would have also bought out CoH from Cryptic and develop it myself.
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
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What was the reason for the reduction if that wasn't it?
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That answer is probably covered by either a Cryptic or NCsoft NDA. It should be left at that.
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Dare I suggest...
Nemesis plot?
RagManX
"if the market were religion Fulmens would be Moses and you'd be L. Ron Hubbard. " --Nethergoat to eryq2
The economy is not broken. The players are
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Now, I believe we have been told that these cuts to the developer team were after Issue Eight came out right?
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I actually believe that the cuts to the dev team happened much earlier in 2006. It was announced that Positron became lead dev on April 28 2006, which puts the change between Issue 6 and Issue 7, not Issue 8. I'm sure there was a phased reduction in the team, but it is likely Issue 7 (launch: June 6, 2006) was the last time the larger team pulled something together. I'm pretty sure that Zeb Cook also left in April 2006 (or at least stopped posting).
As for when MUO came into the picture, I can't say. But it seems possible that a fantastic CoV launch would have seen Cryptic fully committed to their own projects, not looking to outside offers.
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We've had several references to Issue Eight, such as BaB mentioning that he was the sole animator/FX artist since Issue Eight earlier in this thread, which sort of implies that there were more people doing the work up until that point , and references to people from the other Cryptic teams pitching in a bit with Issue Nine, though the exact chronology as to when they moved off is unclear.
Personally, I just take issue with your use of the phrase "Correcting misconceptions" You're in no position to do so, not being an employee of Cryptic or NCSoft, and if you were, you'd be bound by an NDA anyways.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
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Slagheap
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Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
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Personally, I just take issue with your use of the phrase "Correcting misconceptions" You're in no position to do so, not being an employee of Cryptic or NCSoft, and if you were, you'd be bound by an NDA anyways.
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Fair enough - I was 'challenging opinions I saw as incorrect'.
I've taken Emmert's comments from his GDC 2008 speech that says "[a] new lead designer, Matt "Positron" Miller was appointed, and the newly-small dev team had to trend away from content-heavy features" that would seem to indicate Positron got the lead dev job just as the team was downsizing. Of course, the article could be wrong, or that could be the condensed version of what happened.
At this point, however, we've gone where I didn't really want to go (and yes, I take some of the responsibility for leading it there) - the fact that 15 people punched above their weight to give us the MMO we have today. I'm very interested to see where CoH/V ends up in 12 months time as NC^2 increases staff numbers but also competition from other MMOs increases.
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I'm very interested to see where CoH/V ends up in 12 months time as NC^2 increases staff numbers but also competition from other MMOs increases.
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It'll depend on what comes out, and what are the options offered by other games.
They've got something solid here, but there are problems to be addressed, and if indeed, they aren't addressed, some people might want to leave the game behind and not come back. So long as this game offers something the other games do not offer, people will play it.
As far as "They always come back.", for me, that's the case for now. I've quit, played WoW, then returned when I missed the people I played with. For others? I dare not say. As of the moment, the only game that could lure me away is CO, and I'm cautiously optimistic about it - In the sense that they could easily [censored] it up. However, it being more action-ey than CoX piques my interest.
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I'm very interested to see where CoH/V ends up in 12 months time as NC^2 increases staff numbers but also competition from other MMOs increases.
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Oddly enough, I see the incresaed staff and commitment to CoX as part of the reason one of those competitors dropped [I really don't think MGS wanted to get into a market share fight between an established game that was still supported and SOE].
Now Champions, time will tell. I'm just really really cautious with Champions because alot of what's being said sounds like what was said about CoH before launch too.
Let's Dance!
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Now Champions, time will tell. I'm just really really cautious with Champions because alot of what's being said sounds like what was said about CoH before launch too.
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The problem isn't what's being said but rather that nothing is really being said. Granted, they're still developing. They may have all the best intentions in the world, but unless that materializes, who will actually jump ship?
One thing I know as a noob forum poster is CoX currently has a level of customer loyalty (me included) that most corporations would kill for it. The product is so good and so enjoyed that the mere sign of criticism (real or perceived, articulate or obscene, justified or ridiculous) often immediately triggers a customer driven defense support system launch. This thread is a prime example.
If you ever really want abuse, sit the customer service desk at the cable TV company (or perhaps maybe record your very own conversations with them). Not too many call in to their cable TV provider to thank them for the new HD TV channels, sympathize with their corporate staffing woes (down to the level of making sure they get it right on who stayed and who left), and overlook longstanding flaws like signal loss or the removal of channels that they really want to watch. But this same kind of thing happens in CoX every day.
Can CoX maintain this fierce customer loyality in the face of increased competition? I don't know. All I know is I'm not a real hero (villain) but that I play one online... and it's really really cool. Apparently, in spite of the abuse and resource issues the devs have faced, many others feel the same way. And that certainly has worked to CoX's advantage... so far.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom (or freem?) fighter; just as one man's exploit is another man's feature.
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Now Champions, time will tell. I'm just really really cautious with Champions because alot of what's being said sounds like what was said about CoH before launch too.
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Given the track record of the lead dev anyone expecting the finished product to measure up to the hype better hide their razor blades.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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If you ever really want abuse, sit the customer service desk at the cable TV company (or perhaps maybe record your very own conversations with them). Not too many call in to their cable TV provider to thank them for the new HD TV channels, sympathize with their corporate staffing woes (down to the level of making sure they get it right on who stayed and who left), and overlook longstanding flaws like signal loss or the removal of channels that they really want to watch. But this same kind of thing happens in CoX every day.
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If you work/worked for Comcast, I have no sympathy.
CRAPTASTIC! 
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One thing I know as a noob forum poster is CoX currently has a level of customer loyalty (me included) that most corporations would kill for it.
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Most likely because when you think of a corporation, you think of the faceless board of directors who don't give a <bleep!> about anything but making money. Here, even when we complain, the complaint has a face:
"I wish Positron would have put badges in the Ouroboros TFs!"
"I wish Sexy Jay would fix the ugly bare hands model!"
"I wish BAB could find a magic voodoo doll to make Power Customization happen!"
"I wish War Witch could revamp Boomtown next issue!"
And so on. We have names and faces to attach to our issues, so we can sympathize with those dealing with the problems. You can't do that with corporations where all the contact with the consumer is done by phone drones.
Even the new forum Moderators (a position that tends to be hated everywhere) have a name and can poke fun with us! Hard to hate the guy who locks your thread when he says, "it was the history eraser button, I couldn't resist".
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It's like family. You complain about them all the time, that doesn't mean you don't love them.
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One thing I know as a noob forum poster is CoX currently has a level of customer loyalty (me included) that most corporations would kill for it.
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What I think you meant to say was "that most corporations would be killed BY."
Fanboys have never, in the history of the planet, "improved" the object of their devotion. What corporations want, and in fact NEED, is a broad userbase. Want to know what Fanboys create, with their fanatical "Comic/Movie/Game X is ABSOLUTELY PERFECT, and ANYONE THAT DISAGREES IS A HERETIC WHO MUST DIE" attitude?
"Matrix Revolutions"
"The Phantom Menace"
"Clerks II"
"All-Star Batman and Robin"
"Hostel II"
"Alien vs Predator"
...and the list goes on and on. The problem with Fanboys, and why they're sheer, absolute poison for the object of their obsession, is this: They have so much of their personal ego invested into whatever it is they think they're "defending" that they prevent any valid criticism and therefore any needed improvements, from taking place.
So yeah, it's great that a handful of people think that CoH is the "bestest, most goodest, uber-perfect game in creation", but at the end of the day, you're hurting the game. You're hurting it the same way the Star Wars fanboys hurt the three Prequels: by convincing the people in charge that the majority of the fanbase are "wrong", and that everything is completely peachy-keen.
During the first month or so after Release, I sent an eMail to Statesman, and outlined everything that I saw as a potential problems with the game. He graciously and politely wrote back to me. He seemed to understand what I was saying and encouraged me to hang in there until they got all the kinks worked out. A lot of the problems I noticed have been addressed: The insane leveling curve, the overly-zealous Debt mechanics, the lack Enhancements that don't decay with levels, the complete uselessness of Scrappers, and so forth. However, there are still big, huge problems that are keeping the average gamer away- the biggest being the entire Bridging/Doorsitting/PLing nonsense. Normal gamers won't play a game with those issues. But instead of fixing it, as it should have been fixed on Day One, the Devs ignore it.
So, I guess the bottom line is this: If the game exists to cater to a relatively tiny core of hardcore fans, then congrats, mission accomplished. If, however, it's a business venture that actually wants to grow and expand, then the Devs absolutely MUST throw off the Fanboy Yolk, and start paying attention to what the market wants, and not just what the loudest, most obsessional fans want.
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So yeah, it's great that a handful of people think that CoH is the "bestest, most goodest, uber-perfect game in creation", but at the end of the day, you're hurting the game. You're hurting it the same way the Star Wars fanboys hurt the three Prequels: by convincing the people in charge that the majority of the fanbase are "wrong", and that everything is completely peachy-keen.
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But the thing is, in our case we do the exact opposite. Therefore it must be a good thing.
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But the thing is, in our case we do the exact opposite. Therefore it must be a good thing.
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Perhaps. I don't read as much as the board as I'd like, so maybe there's vast pockets of dissent, wherein the fanbase is actually clamoring for an end to PLing and suchlike. In which case, maybe it's time the Devs listened to you. Of course, my time on the internet has led me to believe that most of the time, when forum fans say that they don't blindly defend the Devs, what they REALLY mean is that they complained bitterly about the last bunch of changes the Devs made, because they liked the game just like it was.
Me, I love the game. I come back to it every six months or so. But there are definitely some things they could do that would make the experience more enjoyable.
Ah well. CoH is still better than most other games, warts and all.
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A lot of the problems I noticed have been addressed: The insane leveling curve, the overly-zealous Debt mechanics, the lack Enhancements that don't decay with levels, the complete uselessness of Scrappers, and so forth. However, there are still big, huge problems that are keeping the average gamer away- the biggest being the entire Bridging/Doorsitting/PLing nonsense. Normal gamers won't play a game with those issues. But instead of fixing it, as it should have been fixed on Day One, the Devs ignore it.
[/ QUOTE ]Uh, have you played any other MMO, ever? Our "insane leveling curve" and "overly-zealous Debt mechanics" are a drop in the bucket compared to the grind and death penalty in most games, not to mention the fact that PLing and farming (or something with similar effect) will always happen, in any and every game, no matter what the developers do to try and prevent it.
Games are a time sink, MMOs doubly so.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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During the first month or so after Release, I sent an eMail to Statesman, and outlined everything that I saw as a potential problems with the game. He graciously and politely wrote back to me. He seemed to understand what I was saying and encouraged me to hang in there until they got all the kinks worked out. A lot of the problems I noticed have been addressed: The insane leveling curve, the overly-zealous Debt mechanics, the lack Enhancements that don't decay with levels, the complete uselessness of Scrappers, and so forth. However, there are still big, huge problems that are keeping the average gamer away- the biggest being the entire Bridging/Doorsitting/PLing nonsense. Normal gamers won't play a game with those issues. But instead of fixing it, as it should have been fixed on Day One, the Devs ignore it.
So, I guess the bottom line is this: If the game exists to cater to a relatively tiny core of hardcore fans, then congrats, mission accomplished. If, however, it's a business venture that actually wants to grow and expand, then the Devs absolutely MUST throw off the Fanboy Yolk, and start paying attention to what the market wants, and not just what the loudest, most obsessional fans want.
[/ QUOTE ]hmm i think you are confusing devoted fans for fanboys, there is a strong seperation between the two, and while coh may or may not have actual fanboys, our retention rates are anomolous enough in to be mentioned by the former lead dev, and our churn rate does seem to be lower than most mmos, even those with significantly higher subscription numbers.
But as to wether fans have ever improved a game, well, you just need to look at the past few issues, particularly issue 11, the devs have been very responsive to the fanbase and have tailored the game to include things that either they have found out through polls, like dual blades, or through just reading the forums and caring, like oroboboros flashbacks, weapon customization, and the exp leveling that you just mentioned, and that has made the players happy. The use of the term fanboy is one that i find incredibly irksome because it polarizes the discussion needlessly and sets people in ideological camps that just makes it harder for them to relate witht he points made by people who may disagree with them in parts and agree in others.
and as for pling, honestly every game on the market has to deal with pling, its a part of the genre. measures have been made repetedly to curb pling,and classic pling from launch is gone. but you cant fully excise it without making some seriously draconian affects on legitimate play, and most of the fanbase agrees that its easier to just use your ignore list in peregrine islands and let the plers pl themselves where it dosen't affect us than to take harsh measures agaisnt legitimate teaming and ruin everyones game.
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And Aaron, but, you know, he's only the Lead Programmer and all.
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I mentioned him in an earlier post, but he somehow fell of the list. Sorry Aaron, you rock!
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And far kinder to random people who show up at interviews in way over their head then he needs to be. *thumbs up*