Issue 12 Discussion: Hollows Zone Makeover
By
Aakan,
Posted on: 2008-03-12 09:27 in Developers' Corner
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Personally I hope they redo Frostfires look. Both Frostfire and Atta really don't look like the leaders of the Trolls and Outcasts. They should get new unique looking models. It would make it feel more epic to fight them if they looked differently than the standard members.
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This would not only be acceptable but cool. I had always thought they looked rather 'disappointing' myself. Good idea!
Indig 
, leader of the City of Gaymers
City of Gaymers on Guildportal.com
http://www.guildportal.com/Guild.asp...3&TabID=295104
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Personally I hope they redo Frostfires look. Both Frostfire and Atta really don't look like the leaders of the Trolls and Outcasts. They should get new unique looking models. It would make it feel more epic to fight them if they looked differently than the standard members.
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This would not only be acceptable but cool. I had always thought they looked rather 'disappointing' myself. Good idea!
Indig , leader of the City of Gaymers
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Well the only thing different about Frostfire is the fact that he glows. I can't help but feel that this was underdone.
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To be honest, I'd rather have the Devs change that "first mission from second contact" to direct the player to visit the Detective in Kings Row. It's not good to make new players think that the Hollows is the natural progression.
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I like this idea, I'd even add to replace the security chief missions with detectives; or have the the security chief missions direct to either detectives or Wilcot after completing them as choices to help out the police more. similar to how brokers redirect villians to additional contacts after completing a mayhem mission.
Considering the mentioned 10-20 Content introduction with the Midnighters, and their history fighting the Circle of Thorns and the arcane... methinks that the "Spawns" being adjusted may include or accomodate the Midnighters Storyline. Also, the new contact introduced in the zone is assumed to take you in the direction of the midnighters...
Picture this: Wincott takes you through the Atlas-Side of the Hollows initially, and by the time you run through the contacts and the Frostfire mish two or three times, you continue to Julius the troll and ultimatly Talshak the Mystic... OR along the line (Or even initially) you get introduced to Meg Mason, who may Start you fighting the CoT for the Midnight Squad. I acknowledge it says she's going to give out repeatable mishes, but that doesnt mean she WONT give you a story arc, as well....
I never really had a problem with the difficulty of the mobs in the zone, the travel time between missions or even the fact that there wasn't a hospital in the zone.
What made the Hollows unappealing to me, (and I don't see it addressed here), was the lack of rewards for the missions in the zone. Not a single mission badge. Not a single temp power to be gained.
Those two reasons alone were reason enough to stick with contacts outside the zone.
personally i hated being like lvl 6 and having to go all the way across the zone to the lvl 14 area. It taught me good aggro management and back when lvl 5 was when u started debt it taught me that debt was nothing to be afraid of! Alas with the temp travel powers and the raising of the debt level and lowering of the debt cap these lessons have long since left..... 
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personally i hated being like lvl 6 and having to go all the way across the zone to the lvl 14 area. It taught me good aggro management and back when lvl 5 was when u started debt it taught me that debt was nothing to be afraid of! Alas with the temp travel powers and the raising of the debt level and lowering of the debt cap these lessons have long since left.....
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I always found if you stuck to the streets, instead of running in a straight line to the missions in the lvl 14 area...I avoided faceplanting.
Now, if you wanted to get to the mission faster, you could do the straight line, but it was more risky.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Personally, I would have liked to have seen some more major changes to the zone. Like perhaps the dam finally got destroyed and the crater becomes a lake.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Yeah, while I support any and all upgrades to the CoX game, I have to say that I am a little disappointed at the use of the "easy button" on the Hollows. I feel like too much whining (no offense) has led to the dumbing down of many cool and challenging features of this game.
My first few toons learned the value of a travel power, aggro range, the power of a team, and the falsehood of "hey, they are all my level, i can take them!!!" really quickly when i was a noobling in the Hollows.
If anything, I felt that CoV needed a similar hazard zone.
Next time a low lvl squishy runs into an 8 man spawn alone, i'll think of this change! 
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Yeah, while I support any and all upgrades to the CoX game, I have to say that I am a little disappointed at the use of the "easy button" on the Hollows. I feel like too much whining (no offense) has led to the dumbing down of many cool and challenging features of this game.
My first few toons learned the value of a travel power, aggro range, the power of a team, and the falsehood of "hey, they are all my level, i can take them!!!" really quickly when i was a noobling in the Hollows.
If anything, I felt that CoV needed a similar hazard zone.
Next time a low lvl squishy runs into an 8 man spawn alone, i'll think of this change!
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Have you even read the dev diary? This zone is gonna be like 10 times cooler.
I'm only ladylike when compared to my sister.
well if they are re-balencing the zone for single player and small groups(1-3), does this mean they are finally admitting that some servers are ghost towns, and that for a MMO there are a lot of solo players?
Fluffy Bunny 1 Person SG
Rabid Bunny 1 Person VG
Both on Pinnacle
Hobbit's Hole 1 Person SG
Spider's Web 1 Person VG
Both on Freedom
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I can has mish doors not 2 miles across the zone when I level 5?
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That is indeed a problem. And not only in the Hollows. Devs really should look again at pretty much every mission locations given by the "legacy" origin contacts. Still many missions sending you in hazard zones, in higher level zones, etc.... Also many missions sending you very far away in the same zone often in red areas with mobs above your level.
Anyway, revamping Hollows wasnt a bad idea. Even for veteran players, it was really annoying to run 2.4 miles to get to a mission door when considering that soloing that mission was to take only 10 minutes... What a waste of time it was.
Im also glad that there will be soloable spawns near the entrance.
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
Just wanted to say thank you to War Witch for the work she put into this revamp.
I imagine there was the mandatory banging of head against desk (and possibly random co-workers) involved in any such project, but it also sounds like she had fun with it, which is great. When a creator's having fun, it shows in the details.
Some of the things that tickle my little fancy:
<ul type="square">[*]"I added some fresh blood (er...meat?) to The Hollows. There were piles and piles of Outcasts and Trolls and Trolls and Outcasts ... I wanted to add some flavor and some variety! So I added Skulls, Hellions, and Lost to the mix."
Nice. I like never being completely sure what I'm going to run into around the next corner. Also, just a little attention to detail to add depth and spice.
[*]"Also, you may run into Paragon Police or Longbow, but since they're allies, they'll help you out ... gone are the canned animations of the Paragon Police."
I never really minded the canned animations, but it will be much cooler having police who actually participate. I know some people are concerned about EvE kill-stealing, and justly so. I, personally, just don't care. I'm willing to sacrifice a few xp for some added depth and interaction in the setting.
[*]"Vahzilok have moved into the neighborhood, but usually only at night and in a very specific location."
I just love little bits like this. Something about a specific type of mob spawning in one specific location at a specific time ... I guess it just adds personality to an area for me.
So, first thing to do when I get into the news Hollows: find the Vahzilok.
And I now feel the burning desire to come up with a dirty joke involving someone playing, "Hide the Vahzilok." I think I shall let this desire pass.
[*]"The Legacy Chain have a presence there too, a heroic group of mystical heroes who are there to help, not hurt the heroes of Paragon City. They want to get to the bottom of the Circle of Thorns threat as we do. There might another reason, too, but they won't even give that up to Longbow."
Oooo! Inherent conflict and mystery. Conflict + mystery = story. Plus, more variety and spice.
[*]"I added a new contact to the zone, an undercover operative named Meg Mason, who has the skinny on all the gangs in the area."
More stuff to do is good. Another NPC personality is good. Plus, Meg's hot.[/list]
So, thank you again, War Witch. Can't wait to go mess around in the new Hollows.
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Yeah, while I support any and all upgrades to the CoX game, I have to say that I am a little disappointed at the use of the "easy button" on the Hollows. I feel like too much whining (no offense) has led to the dumbing down of many cool and challenging features of this game.
My first few toons learned the value of a travel power, aggro range, the power of a team, and the falsehood of "hey, they are all my level, i can take them!!!" really quickly when i was a noobling in the Hollows.
If anything, I felt that CoV needed a similar hazard zone.
Next time a low lvl squishy runs into an 8 man spawn alone, i'll think of this change!
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Have you even read the dev diary? This zone is gonna be like 10 times cooler.
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Of course I did. More diversified but fewer mobs. Closer mission doors. More friendly mobs. A contact with repeatable missions. Easier =/= cooler in my book. Tricycle not cooler then Harley.
Overall I am overjoyed with 95% of the upcoming issue, beside myself even. Just not this 5%. Did the Hollows need some attention? Yes. Was this what it really needed? I don't think so.
I'm trilled with these ideas War Witch. Looking forward to checking them out. I've always loved the concepts behind the hollows. My very first and second Hero at launch were "former Outcasts" so when you guys added Hollows, I was excited about having more Outcast specific missions.
The distances to travel, especially before the addition of radio missions and temp travel powers, SUCKED. The Contact/Neighborhood sync'ing is a very welcome change. Also it is nice that when I'm asked to go and defeat 10 Outcasts/Trolls, I will not have to face all 10 (+ a couple friends) in a single mob anymore....
And now Hero locations for Coralax. Nice to see some of them have left the Rogue Isles.
Ashryn Kaine: 50 Elec/Elec/Elec Blaster (Shut down then put down.)
John Synistra: 50 Earth/Storm/Fire Controller (It feels like cheating.)
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Yeah, while I support any and all upgrades to the CoX game, I have to say that I am a little disappointed at the use of the "easy button" on the Hollows. I feel like too much whining (no offense) has led to the dumbing down of many cool and challenging features of this game.
My first few toons learned the value of a travel power, aggro range, the power of a team, and the falsehood of "hey, they are all my level, i can take them!!!" really quickly when i was a noobling in the Hollows.
If anything, I felt that CoV needed a similar hazard zone.
Next time a low lvl squishy runs into an 8 man spawn alone, i'll think of this change!
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Have you even read the dev diary? This zone is gonna be like 10 times cooler.
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Of course I did. More diversified but fewer mobs. Closer mission doors. More friendly mobs. A contact with repeatable missions. Easier =/= cooler in my book. Tricycle not cooler then Harley.
Overall I am overjoyed with 95% of the upcoming issue, beside myself even. Just not this 5%. Did the Hollows need some attention? Yes. Was this what it really needed? I don't think so.
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Although I suppose one may have qualms with the changes (I don't--I never liked the Hollows, personally), I do have to say that this was a lot of work done by a dedicated person who honestly didn't have to do it for the QoL of casual players within a timeframe and budget window that sounds like it was practically non-existent. I personally can't see how being killed in transit to your missions or having to take round-about paths or hovering to low-level missions is cool, but of course, you're allowed your opinion. It is also acknowledging that, yes, people do want to solo at low levels in the Hollows. I'll definitely check the new Hollows out when I12 hits, and I appreciate Melissa's hard work. She's my hero!
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Yeah, while I support any and all upgrades to the CoX game, I have to say that I am a little disappointed at the use of the "easy button" on the Hollows. I feel like too much whining (no offense) has led to the dumbing down of many cool and challenging features of this game.
My first few toons learned the value of a travel power, aggro range, the power of a team, and the falsehood of "hey, they are all my level, i can take them!!!" really quickly when i was a noobling in the Hollows.
If anything, I felt that CoV needed a similar hazard zone.
Next time a low lvl squishy runs into an 8 man spawn alone, i'll think of this change!
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Have you even read the dev diary? This zone is gonna be like 10 times cooler.
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Of course I did. More diversified but fewer mobs. Closer mission doors. More friendly mobs. A contact with repeatable missions. Easier =/= cooler in my book. Tricycle not cooler then Harley.
Overall I am overjoyed with 95% of the upcoming issue, beside myself even. Just not this 5%. Did the Hollows need some attention? Yes. Was this what it really needed? I don't think so.
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Although I suppose one may have qualms with the changes (I don't--I never liked the Hollows, personally), I do have to say that this was a lot of work done by a dedicated person who honestly didn't have to do it for the QoL of casual players within a timeframe and budget window that sounds like it was practically non-existent. I personally can't see how being killed in transit to your missions or having to take round-about paths or hovering to low-level missions is cool, but of course, you're allowed your opinion. It is also acknowledging that, yes, people do want to solo at low levels in the Hollows. I'll definitely check the new Hollows out when I12 hits, and I appreciate Melissa's hard work. She's my hero!
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I am in no way knocking anyones hard work, I think that the Devs have done and are continuing to do an amazing job. I just think that making a Hazard Zone easy because it's....hazardous, isn't what I was looking for in a change. Closer mission doors, great! More diversified mobs, awesome! Another contact, hazar! Less unfriendly mobs, more friendly mobs in a zone that is supposed to be a challenge.....not so much. I always saw the Hollows as a testing ground for what you have learned in the previous 5 - 10 levels, if you didn't learn that you can't run up to a group of 10 +2 enemies without getting trounced, well you sure would learn that there. There was a controller on my lvl 30 team yesterday who obviously skipped the Hollows. 
Well, it is the first hazard zone introduced to players, so I can understand why it should be a bit toned down compared to other hazard zones. And by the time my Ill/Storm Troller was 30, she was jumping into spawns of 8-10 +2s and surviving. Something that she obviously couldn't do back in levels 5-10. I honestly always hated the fact that the first 2 missions were "kill x of whatever" when they all came in groups of 6-10 enemies often +1 or higher compared to your character. Making the first part of a lowbie hazard zone soloable is nothing but good in my books. There are still challenging areas in The Hollows, according to Melissa, but they're not around the entrance, and that's good.
I'm sure it's been covered in the 20 pages of this thread already, but I do hope that no missions given by non-Hollows contacts give missions in the back of Hollows. I recall one mission door WAY back there that I had to get to with my Grav eons ago. Timed mission, and I was duoed. My friend died at least twice trying to get there, and I died a couple of times in the mission (pre-containment) and had to try to run all the way back from the hospital. Eventually we just gave up.
Suggestions:
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Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level
I hope War Witch will take this opportunity to change the Hollows contacts that assign their mishes in a random order to instead follow one story arc sequence. Now that we have shared completion, it would be best to have the missions in a shared order, as they are in Faultline and Croatoa. The Hollows and Striga both have this problem.
@Second Chances
"And it's not what I wanted
Oh no, it's not what I planned
See it's not where I thought I'd be
It's just where I am"
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I'm sure it's been covered in the 20 pages of this thread already, but I do hope that no missions given by non-Hollows contacts give missions in the back of Hollows. I recall one mission door WAY back there that I had to get to with my Grav eons ago. Timed mission, and I was duoed. My friend died at least twice trying to get there, and I died a couple of times in the mission (pre-containment) and had to try to run all the way back from the hospital. Eventually we just gave up.
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In the Dev Diary that was released recently, War Witch did mention that she re-did the way the mission doors are assigned. I'm pretty sure that meant that the doors are now closer to the contacts that give them ... at least for the Hollows.
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I'm sure it's been covered in the 20 pages of this thread already, but I do hope that no missions given by non-Hollows contacts give missions in the back of Hollows. I recall one mission door WAY back there that I had to get to with my Grav eons ago. Timed mission, and I was duoed. My friend died at least twice trying to get there, and I died a couple of times in the mission (pre-containment) and had to try to run all the way back from the hospital. Eventually we just gave up.
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In the Dev Diary that was released recently, War Witch did mention that she re-did the way the mission doors are assigned. I'm pretty sure that meant that the doors are now closer to the contacts that give them ... at least for the Hollows.
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Right, but his concern was receiving missions from contacts outside the Hollows. i know i've had the same thing with KR contacts, and it was rather annoying when some of the team had no effective travel powers. Still, it does sound like the spawns will be less densely packed overall, and most areas will not have the current huge spawn groups, so i expect it will be easier. Past level 20 or so having a mission at the far end of the Hollows isn't so bad, but when you're still several levels below the inhabitants it's painful.
My biggest gripe about the Hollows was resting on top of a building and having 8 or more +2 mobs appear around me without warning. Most zones seem to be coded not to spawn groups near/on top of players, but the Hollows used to (still does? haven't spent a lot of time in the Hollows for a couple years) place new groups right on top of players, which could could be dangerous and annoying even when not resting. Not to mention how immersion-breaking it is to have a mutant street gang literally appear out of nowhere around you. Circle mages you can almost hand-wave it away, but not so much for a group low-powered mutants who mostly trow fire and ice, and act almost as surprised as you are when they appear around you. 
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
The article mentions how she left clear travelling paths, usually on roads, through most of the zone. Obviously, the areas in the hills is a bit different in that respect, but I think the assumption is that by that time, you should have a travel power, temporary or otherwise, by then.
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well if they are re-balencing the zone for single player and small groups(1-3), does this mean they are finally admitting that some servers are ghost towns, and that for a MMO there are a lot of solo players?
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They realized that people don't (generally) fight outside or travel as groups in this game, and that the mob spawns were only serving as cheap, frustrating obstacle. Now the outer world is both less of an obstacle and probably interesting enough to run around in blowing things up/hitting things.
I'm only ladylike when compared to my sister.
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In this case, we're really talking about a Quality of Life improvement for new players. Perhaps I need to remind you of what it is like to a new player with a level 5 - 6 character:
This new player has been following his contact's missions religiously; after all, it's the easiest way to find a bunch of enemies spawned close together for his level. So between level 4 and 5, his first contact finally introduces him to a second contact. And if he's unlucky, the second contact might be in the other starter zone ... let's say he started in Atlas Park, and now he has to go to Galaxy to talk to his second contact.
So he travels -- sprint speed, you understand, is nowhere close to what the travel powers provide. He gets to his second contact in Galaxy, and he's essentially told to go back to Atlas Park and pay a visit to the Hollows.
So now he travels back. At this point, frustration is mounting. The player wants to get to a real mission, not get this run-around. When he finally makes it to the Hollows, he talks to Wincott and takes the mission.
First surprise: it's a Defeat 10 street-sweep. Huzzah. Second surprise: the enemies congregate in large numbers. Back in the days when the Hollows was first introduced, there were a lot of people in Hollows ... so finding a group was as easy as showing up in the zone's Find list. Nowadays ... I rarely see more than 3 people in the zone.
So our poor new player with his level 5or6 character is forced to solo through that first mission. Let's say he doesn't use the "buy inspirations" trick ... he'll eventually get defeated simply by the overwhelming numbers. And now he has to go to the hospital.
Guess what happens:
-- Long Loading Screen to the Hospital
-- Go thru two "doors" to get out of Hospital
-- Long travel -- still sprinting -- to get to Hollows
-- Long Loading Screen to enter Hollows
Things like this is what frustrate many new players to any MMORPG. So I'm glad they've simplified that 4-step-process above to this:
-- Reappear at Field Hospital in Hollows.
To be honest, I'd rather have the Devs change that "first mission from second contact" to direct the player to visit the Detective in Kings Row. It's not good to make new players think that the Hollows is the natural progression.
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Oh. I so wish that happens. Talk to the KR detective instead of Talk to David in the Hollows. When I first started I thought that was what you had to do. Finish your first contact's mission, go to your second contact, get sent to the Hollows. Follow David's mission and die repeatedly until you get contacted by a PUG in the Hollows. Do all THEIR missions in the Hollows (and they usually had a mission higher than yours so it didn't sync) gain lots of levels until they broke up. Go back and easily finish all of David's arc solo with your squishy. Find you out leveled Flux, so you got no mission. Find you outleveled your second contact, who acts like you never done a mission for them and doesn't give you another contact. Then I roll up a new character.
This happened with my first 2 characters. It wasn't until my third, that I discovered the boards, and read a "Things I Learned" posting that said you could go to David, AND NOT TAKE A MISSION!
Really? What a wonderful idea! So after that I never took a Wincott mission unless it synced with someone else's mission. It wasn't that obvious unless you read the boards, so I hope the contacts stop encouraging the Hollows trap.
That being said, I look forward to trying out the new Hollows, I just fear it will make you outlevel stuff outside even faster with more content.